Scripture Pundits, do you actually believe everything you read as a truism

Does anyone see the deep metaphors existing within scripture? I understand the 'faith' driven believers; this is directed at the defenders of 'atheism' (where is your bible; or did the unpublished manuscript go away with the disappearance of Madeline Murray O'Hare).

The bible was never meant to be taken literally. The church may want you to take it literally, but that doesn't mean it should be.

The stories in the bible are a parable within themselves, it symbolizes our journey while here on Earth. Adam and Eve are given self-awareness (human birth), Cain kills Abel (ignorance is learned), God orders the killing of thousands or even millions of people (the destructive nature of ignorance), Jesus is born then baptized (repentance for our actions that stemmed from ignorance), Jesus' ministry (learning to love others and how to come to God), and Jesus' crucifixion ("dying" to your old ways of ignorance), and Jesus' resurrection (becoming a new and better person).

The bible is a metaphorical lesson that Christians fail to learn, instead they take it literally and miss the lessons it teaches between the lines.

originally posted by: vethumanbeing
Does anyone see the deep metaphors existing within scripture? I understand the 'faith' driven believers; this is directed at the defenders of 'atheism' (where is your bible; or did the unpublished manuscript go away with the disappearance of Madeline Murray O'Hare).

I see, you don't know what atheist means. Atheism is a single position. No book is required to not believe in unicorns, either. Is it difficult for you to imagine people not needing a book to determine that which they should and should not believe?

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
The bible was never meant to be taken literally. The church may want you to take it literally, but that doesn't mean it should be.
The stories in the bible are a parable within themselves, it symbolizes our journey while here on Earth. Adam and Eve are given self-awareness (human birth), Cain kills Abel (ignorance is learned), God orders the killing of thousands or even millions of people (the destructive nature of ignorance), Jesus is born then baptized (repentance for our actions that stemmed from ignorance), Jesus' ministry (learning to love others and how to come to God), and Jesus' crucifixion ("dying" to your old ways of ignorance), and Jesus' resurrection (becoming a new and better person).
The bible is a metaphorical lesson that Christians fail to learn, instead they take it literally and miss the lessons it teaches between the lines.

Yes, the Bible was never meant to be taken as a 'literal document FROM GOD' *as you say the church would love you to as it will maintain a sort of guilt ridden maintenance regarding your eternal souls outcome*. The poetry/metaphor lies within the messages. It is dangerous when scripture is taken literally; witness ISIS and the corruption of the Koran. (thread closed, 3NL1GHT3N3D1 answered the question).

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: vethumanbeing
Does anyone see the deep metaphors existing within scripture? I understand the 'faith' driven believers; this is directed at the defenders of 'atheism' (where is your bible; or did the unpublished manuscript go away with the disappearance of Madeline Murray O'Hare).

I see, you don't know what atheist means. Atheism is a single position. No book is required to not believe in unicorns, either. Is it difficult for you to imagine people not needing a book to determine that which they should and should not believe?

I DO though; (or think so). Some of us don't need a 'bible' to inform us that "the Boss" exists. I am like you just perched on the other seat end of the teeder-todder wondering "who or what the fulcrum balance point" represents. What does this mean 'single position' as in you are unwavering; not like the wretched 'agnostics' with hands in the air " CRY I JUST DONT KNOW" or the 'gnostic's'; hands wildly waving are screaming "I KNOW" just as firmly as the Atheists, holding the same but opposite single position.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

The bible is a metaphorical lesson that Christians fail to learn, instead they take it literally and miss the lessons it teaches between the lines.

That's like saying that food is solid, which babies fail to eat, instead they take liquid food from a bottle and miss the cuisine at 4-star restaurants. Stupid babies!

'I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready.' 1 Corinthians 3:2

You guys are way too hard on Christians. When they are ready to go from the exoteric layer to the esoteric, God will get them there. If not in this life, then the next.

Baby food has it's place. Badgering a baby about suckling doesn't do anyone any good. No one can grok the esoteric without Gods help. I would expect an enlightened 1 to know that. Maybe you aren't as enlightened as you like to think.

👣

a reply to: BlueMule

I was wrong for singling out Christians, the line of thinking I mentioned isn't just lost on Christians but atheists/agnostics as well.

Even if atheists/agnostics deny the mainstream teachings and interpretations of the bible, they still conform to them by association.

a reply to: vethumanbeing

I believe everything in the biblical scriptures are true, however, sometimes we are required to dig deeper than the modern translations to find that truth. The entire bible (excluding what has been declared pseudopigrapha) bares a unified message, that all mankind (excluding Christ) are sinners who require redemption. This redemption cannot be self-attained, but must be given by God. It is so simple that it is often overlooked by those without faith. I dont care who you are, whether you are a genious, a philosopher, or an idiot; the bible cannot be properly understood as a whole if you do not first have faith in Christ, since the bible is the mind of Christ.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: BlueMule

I was wrong for singling out Christians, the line of thinking I mentioned isn't just lost on Christians but atheists/agnostics as well.
Even if atheists/agnostics deny the mainstream teachings and interpretations of the bible, they still conform to them by association.

They cannot deny the mainstream because they are in direct response to something they must somewhere somehow have to rebel against (the idea form) organized religion created by man to serve God, or just an entire rejection of a creator being.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

No one is to be blamed for failing to grok the esoteric current that run through the entirety of world religion and myth. People must be initiated into that level of understanding by God when they are ready.

People believe what God gives them to believe. Nothing more, nothing less. God gives each person their own unique way of apprehending the Mystery. Some ways clash with others, and that's ok. The blade clashes with the whetstone. Each way has its place.

Moses and the Shepherd
(By Rumi, as translated by Coleman Barks)

Moses heard a shepherd on the road praying.
"God, where are you? I want to help you, to fix your shoes
and comb your hair. I want to wash your clothes
and pick the lice off. I want to bring you milk
and kiss your little hands and feet when it's time
for you to go to bed. I want to sweep your room
and keep it neat. God, my sheep and goats are yours.
All I can say remembering you is aaayyyyy
and aaahhhhhhhhhhhh."

Moses could stand it no longer.
"Who are you talking to?"
"The one who made us and made
the earth and made the sky."

"Don't talk about shoes
and socks with God! And what's this with your little
hands? Such blasphemous familiarity sounds like
you're chatting with your uncles. Only something
that grows needs milk. Only someone with feet
needs shoes. Not God!"

The shepherd repented
and tore his clothes and wandered out into
the desert. A sudden revelation came then to Moses:

You have separated me from one of my own.
Did you come as a prophet to unite or to sever?
I have given each being a separate and unique way
of seeing and knowing and saying that knowledge.

What seems wrong to you is right for him.
What is poison to one is honey to someone else.
Purity and impurity, sloth and diligence in worship,
these mean nothing to me. I am apart from all that.

Ways of worshipping are not to be ranked as better
or worse. Hindus do Hindu things. The Dravidian
Muslims in India do what they do. It's all praise,
and it's all right. I am not glorified in acts

of worship. It's the worshippers! I don't hear
the words they say. I look inside at the humility.
That broken-open lowliness is the reality. Forget
phraseology! I want burning, burning. Be friends

with your burning. Those who pay attention to ways
of behaving and speaking are one sort. Lovers who
burn are another. Don't impose a property tax
on a burned-out village. Don't scold the lover.

The "wrong" way he talks is better than a hundred
"right" ways of others.
Inside the Kaaba
it doesn't matter which way you point
your prayer rug!
The ocean diver doesn't need snowshoes!
The love-religion has no code or doctrine.
Only God.
So the ruby has nothing engraved on it!
It doesn't need markings.

God began speaking
deeper mysteries to Moses, vision and words,
which cannot be recorded here. Moses left himself
and came back. He went to eternity and came
back here. Many times this happened.

It's foolish of me
to try and say this. If I did say it,
it would uproot human intelligence.

Moses ran after the shepherd, following the bewildered
footprints,
in one place moving like a castle
across a chessboard. In another, sideways,
like a bishop.
Now surging like a wave cresting,
now sliding down like a fish,
with always his feet
making geomancy symbols in the sand,
recording his
wandering state.

Moses finally caught up with him.
"I was wrong. God has revealed to me that there are
no rules for worship. Say whatever and however
your loving tells you to.
Your sweetest blasphemy
is the truest devotion. Through you a whole world
is freed.
Loosen your tongue and don't worry
what comes out. It's all the light of the spirit."

The shepherd replied, "Moses, Moses,
I've gone beyond even that.
You applied the whip,
and my horse shied and jumped out of itself.
The divine nature and my human nature came together.
Bless your scolding hand.

I can't say what has happened.
What I'm saying now is not my real condition.
It can't be said."

The shepherd grew quiet.
When you look in a mirror, you see yourself,
not the state of the mirror.
The flute player
gives breath into a flute, and who makes the music?
The flute player!
Whenever you speak praise
or thanksgiving to God, it's always like
this dear shepherd's simplicity.

👣

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: vethumanbeing

I believe everything in the biblical scriptures are true, however, sometimes we are required to dig deeper than the modern translations to find that truth. The entire bible (excluding what has been declared pseudopigrapha) bares a unified message, that all mankind (excluding Christ) are sinners who require redemption. This redemption cannot be self-attained, but must be given by God. It is so simple that it is often overlooked by those without faith. I dont care who you are, whether you are a genious, a philosopher, or an idiot; the bible cannot be properly understood as a whole if you do not first have faith in Christ, since the bible is the mind of Christ.

Unified message; it does indeed try to implicate this: there is a higher being that exists; not the negative you are speaking of "all mankind are sinners by birth" as that implies we are not (as newborns) birthed as 'innocent beings'. Why Christ gets a pass is beyond me (looking at your logic). I personally, do not require redemption as am in knowledge and being so have a personal relationship with my creator that bypasses any prophets profundities. I know what Christ Consciousness is and see where you are going with this; perhaps all could benefit in this knowledge. Thank you for reminding me.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

2 questions, if I may...

Bear in mind the answers won't change my beliefs...

But will help me to better understand others beliefs...




Jesus is said to be God manifest as a Human, yes?

Q 1) Why did God live the Human experience, if he never intended on experiencing being a sinner?



You say that redemption cannot be self attained, yes?

Q 2) Does that not take away a persons free will in attempting to redeem themselves, aka finding redemption?

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

2 questions, if I may...

Bear in mind the answers won't change my beliefs...
But will help me to better understand others beliefs...


Jesus is said to be God manifest as a Human, yes?

Q 1) Why did God live the Human experience, if he never intended on experiencing being a sinner?

You say that redemption cannot be self attained, yes?

Q 2) Does that not take away a persons free will in attempting to redeem themselves, aka finding redemption?

May I interlope as an innocent evesdropper here: Jesus IS said to be God manifested as human; some mistake him for actually being God in the flesh (a slanted view/worship factorizing applies here). Another scenario, the regular 'Joe human' IS God manifested experiencing ITSELF (I know, crazy time thought) and does experience itself sinning (NO tell me it is not true). God has a lot to answer for regarding its OWN redemption if all is the case. I can hear the angelic reporters questions; how did it feel to sin? did you enjoy your sinning or are you ashamed? Did you hurt anyone on purpose; cause wars, allow wars etc.

a reply to: vethumanbeing

I know what Christ Consciousness is and see where you are going with this; perhaps all could benefit in this knowledge.

No, Im afraid that we are not on the same page here. In human terms, we are relatively innocent at birth, but the capacity to fathom evil dwells within any human born of a human father. This is why Christ was born of a virgin via miraculous conception. Adam was the head of the human race, therefore sin is passed down to the progeny via the male. A child does not have to be taught to lie or reject the authority of his/her parents. While this nature may be excusable on our level, this nature cannot enter into heaven where God dwells. This is why Christ had to die spiritually to pay for our fallen nature. It was His spiritual death that saved us, not His physical death. His physical death simply followed so that He could lead those waiting in paradise to heaven.

But, without this foudational understanding of redemption via propitiation, the bible cannot be properly interpreted. It will seem to contradict itself, it will seem abhorant, and it will be mocked by those who reject the knowledge of salvation until His kingdom is fully established.

There are many who claim to admire Jesus and His works, yet so few respect His words: Believe on the Son and you will have Everlasting Life.

The bible was not given to tell you that God exists; I was able to figure that out on my own as a child. No,the bible was given to man so that we may know God's will.

Narrow is the way to heaven because of its shere simplicity: salvation by faith in Christ.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

Q 1) Why did God live the Human experience, if he never intended on experiencing being a sinner?

Jesus lived a sinless life to prove that He could resist the temptations that we would not. And He did experience sins by taking the sins of every human being, fallen angel (Satan included), and human-angel hybrid into His flesh. This event on the cross resulted in His spiritual death.

You say that redemption cannot be self attained, yes?

Q 2) Does that not take away a persons free will in attempting to redeem themselves, aka finding redemption?

If you can live without violating any portion of the Levitical code, without once breaking it (even subcounsciously) from the moment of birth to death, then you can attain salvation.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Thanks priest.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

You are very welcome.

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: veteranhumanbeing

VHBI know what Christ Consciousness is and see where you are going with this; perhaps all could benefit in this knowledge.

BELIEVERpriest: No, Im afraid that we are not on the same page here. In human terms, we are relatively innocent at birth, but the capacity to fathom evil dwells within any human born of a human father. This is why Christ was born of a virgin via miraculous conception. Adam was the head of the human race, therefore sin is passed down to the progeny via the male. A child does not have to be taught to lie or reject the authority of his/her parents. While this nature may be excusable on our level, this nature cannot enter into heaven where God dwells. This is why Christ had to die spiritually to pay for our fallen nature. It was His spiritual death that saved us, not His physical death. His physical death simply followed so that He could lead those waiting in paradise to heaven.

You do not know what Christ Consciousness entails? Now we are 'relatively innocent at birth' but have capacity to fathom evil as a helpless infant? Your explanation of the virgin birth of Jesus is compelling (to bypass the sins of the father) but I thought GOD is/was Jesus's father (or so Gabriel tells it so God is the culprit here). Jesus's soul is eternal so would never experience a 'spiritual death'. His physical death was the message "I am more than my material body AND SO ARE YOU". Jesus did not save me from myself.

BELIEVERpriest: But, without this foudational understanding of redemption via propitiation, the bible cannot be properly interpreted. It will seem to contradict itself, it will seem abhorant, and it will be mocked by those who reject the knowledge of salvation until His kingdom is fully established. There are many who claim to admire Jesus and His works, yet so few respect His words: Believe on the Son and you will have Everlasting Life. The bible was not given to tell you that God exists; I was able to figure that out on my own as a child. No,the bible was given to man so that we may know God's will.Narrow is the way to heaven because of its shere simplicity: salvation by faith in Christ.

I understand the contradictions in the Bible (forgive it actually for its obtuseness) as was ON PURPOSE to create circular never ending DISCUSSIONS including: ribaldry/chiding/puffed out chest stances/outrage/doe eyed idolatry. Why do you have a problem with those claiming to admire Jesus, are you 'more in the knowledge' and those others not as WORTHY, how do you make that judgement call upon others? As you say; narrowness is not the way to heaven.

a reply to: vethumanbeing

You do not know what Christ Consciousness entails? Now we are 'relatively innocent at birth' but have capacity to fathom evil as a helpless infant? Your explanation of the virgin birth of Jesus is compelling (to bypass the sins of the father) but I thought GOD is/was Jesus's father (or so Gabriel tells it so God is the culprit here). Jesus's soul is eternal so would never experience a 'spiritual death'. His physical death was the message "I am more than my material body AND SO ARE YOU". Jesus did not save me from myself.

By Christ consciousness, are you refering to learning the mind of christ in the bible, or are you refering to the Theosophical term?

A child is fallen even at birth, as he/she will grow up to become disobediant on some level, however, a child cannot be held accountable for what he/she cannot comprehend. It is not until we are aware of our fallen nature and God's existance that we can be held accountable. That age is different for each person.

God is indeed Jesus' father, that is why He was born without sin.

Humans consist of body, soul, and spirit (i have experienced the soul-spirit dichodomy in various OOBEs). At birth, our immortal soul is imputed to the body, but the spirit is stillborn. This is why we must be born again (notice that we are not saved by being 'concieved again'). Jesus suffered temporary separation from the Father which resulted in spirit-death not soul-death, but being God, His spirit was revived.

Why do you have a problem with those claiming to admire Jesus, are you 'more in the knowledge' and those others not as WORTHY, how do you make that judgement call upon others? Narrowness is not the way to heaven.

My knowledge of Christ is not of myself, therefore I cannot boast, I simply find it distatefull to claim to respect the person of Jesus Christ, without respecting His word.

A perfect example: You say the way to heaven in not narrow, but broad, yet Jesus said the absolute opposite. He said, wide is the gate to hell, and narrow is the path to heaven (of course I am paraphrasing feel free to quote the scripture).

This is a classic example of "admiring" Christ, but rejectig His wisdom.

a reply to: vethumanbeing

Since the whole mission of life is to step away from your flesh toward the spirit, then you are born as a being wholly mired in the flesh. Infants and young children are a lot like little animals in that they act primarily on instinct and them graduate to an entirely self-centered and selfish world-view. Part of your job as a parent is to train them to think of and consider others, otherwise they will go right on living a worldly and self-centered life that goes completely counter to what Christ teaches.

It's just natural instinct to go that way. Look at nature which is why I say this "back to nature" movement is not necessarily something you should trust in all things. Just because you see something in nature doesn't make it moral.

Chris was a special case and likely born somewhat self-aware and thus able to control himself from the start; something human infants are not able to do.