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Mars gets hazy!!!

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posted on Feb, 16 2015 @ 05:30 PM
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a reply to: VoidHawk

Earth's mesosphere can hardly be considered thick.

Why would clouds be pulled down? It seems that you are engaging in an argumentum ad ignorantiam. You think that clouds should fall because you think they should.
edit on 2/16/2015 by Phage because: (no reason given)




posted on Feb, 16 2015 @ 05:45 PM
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originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: Jonjonj
Mars has "pocket" magnetic fields.
www.esa.int...


It must be assumed then that magnetic aurorae and atmospheric aurorae are different animals, given the paucity of both catalysts, couldn't we assume that aurora is not relevant here?



posted on Feb, 16 2015 @ 05:48 PM
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a reply to: Jonjonj
Can't be ruled out entirely but the original letter to Nature does discuss the possibility. The conclusions; the clouds were too bright and there was no significant solar activity at the time.



posted on Feb, 16 2015 @ 05:54 PM
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a reply to: Phage
So then, taking everything into account, some kind of outgassing could probably be the cause. That of course gives rather more hope for future colonisation, they surely must know more than they let on.




posted on Feb, 16 2015 @ 06:14 PM
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a reply to: Jonjonj


So then, taking everything into account, some kind of outgassing could probably be the cause.
Probably? Not really. The clouds are nearly certainly composed of CO2 or water ice. How would outgassing account for the formation of the clouds?



they surely must know more than they let on.
Why?



posted on Feb, 16 2015 @ 06:19 PM
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a reply to: Christosterone

I think it's fascinating.

But it does also remind me of the often arrogant nature of the scientific community.

On the one hand I fully accept that belief and "fact" is based on all available evidence, but the vehemency with which so many hold to their beliefs, at the expense of discovery and advancement, is worrying to me.

Reading some of the opinions about it is shocking. Even though there is evidence right there for us all to see (going back to 2012), and although it's most plausibly indicative of Aurora, Magnetic fields or even a hint of an atmosphere they didn't think existed (at that level) there is still absolute rejection by some.

That's what this suggests though, isn't it? There is clearly something going on here, clearly it shows that there is something about the atmosphere which contradicts what science has believed for decades.

Like I said though, fascinating, and it shows that what we thought we knew about Mars may have been wrong, and there are obviously still going to be a lot of surprises in store for us too.

And yes, I also agree that the notion of life on Mars is not so far fetched. Even in the most extreme places on Earth, where we once thought no life could possibly exist, it does, and it thrives.
edit on 16-2-2015 by Rocker2013 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 16 2015 @ 06:30 PM
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a reply to: Rocker2013

There is clearly something going on here, clearly it shows that there is something about the atmosphere which contradicts what science has believed for decades.
I wouldn't say it contradicts but it does indicate that something is going. Something that we don't know about.



Like I said though, fascinating, and it shows that what we thought we knew about Mars may have been wrong
Because there is no ready explanation for a given phenomenon, it means that everything we think we know about Mars is wrong?



And yes, I also agree that the notion of life on Mars is not so far fetched.
Many (including scientists) agree with you.


edit on 2/16/2015 by Phage because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 16 2015 @ 07:32 PM
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originally posted by: Phage
I wouldn't say it contradicts but it does indicate that something is going. Something that we don't know about.


That's my point. The belief up until now is that the atmosphere is unable to produce phenomena like that seen in these images. If going on the assumption (plausibility) that it is related to magnetic fields, then it does go against previously held beliefs about the environment on Mars.


originally posted by: PhageBecause there is no ready explanation for a given phenomenon, it means that everything we think we know about Mars is wrong?


No, that's not what I said. Read it again.
I said it shows that what we thought about Mars may be wrong. We thought that the environment around Mars was not capable of producing certain phenomena, because the requirements for certain phenomena were not met, and therefore the phenomena can't possibly exist. Clearly, this is wrong. They admit that this is wrong, they have admitted that what is being witnessed is not explainable given the beliefs we had. Therefore the beliefs we had about what is and what is not possible were wrong.


originally posted by: PhageMany (including scientists) agree with you.



I just wish all logical thinkers in their scientific fields had the same ability to reject an almost fundamental attitude to their chosen science.

edit on 16-2-2015 by Rocker2013 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 16 2015 @ 07:47 PM
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a reply to: Rocker2013

The belief up until now is that the amosphere is far too thin to be able to produce phenomena like that seen in these images.
Please cite a claim that high altitude clouds cannot exist on Mars. The atmosphere of Mars has been and is being studied with quite a bit of detail. So, do you think that the studies are just wrong?




Clearly, this is wrong. They admit that this is wrong, they have admitted that what is being witnessed is not explainable given the beliefs we had.
"Admitted" what is wrong? Yes, they say they don't really know what's causing the clouds (they aren't even 100% sure what they are) but that's not really the same thing as saying it isn't possible. The letter looks at two scenarios which have been suggested. Yes, they say that it's probably not an aurora. Yes, they don't think dust could lift that high under the conditions they have observed (but then, they don't seem to have considered some form of electrostatic levitation).



Therefore the beliefs we had about what is and what is not possible were wrong.
Once again, I ask for a citation that the formation of high altitude clouds is not possible. It's been claimed in this thread, but to say that the only possible explanation is that the atmosphere on Mars is actually thicker than we think is not really a very reasonable approach and it's not the way science works.

edit on 2/16/2015 by Phage because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 16 2015 @ 07:49 PM
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When you're a supporter of Electric Universe "theory", everything is so simple - it's a plasma discharge!



posted on Feb, 16 2015 @ 09:04 PM
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originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: Jonjonj


So then, taking everything into account, some kind of outgassing could probably be the cause.
Probably? Not really. The clouds are nearly certainly composed of CO2 or water ice. How would outgassing account for the formation of the clouds?



they surely must know more than they let on.
Why?


Outgassing as in the sudden eruption of gases caused by heating of an area of terrain with the suitable characteristics necessary to create such a phenomena. Clouds can be formed in this way.



I am glad you are nearly certainly sure of the composition.

Because they have the satellites, and all the other tech, to have FAR more information than I do, am I wrong? They don't tell us everything they find out, am I wrong?
edit on 16-2-2015 by Jonjonj because: (no reason given)

edit on 16-2-2015 by Jonjonj because: bad link by me



posted on Feb, 16 2015 @ 09:10 PM
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a reply to: wildespace

Don't get them started...



posted on Feb, 16 2015 @ 09:15 PM
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a reply to: Jonjonj

Outgassing as in the sudden eruption of gases caused by heating of an area of terrain with the suitable characteristics necessary to create such a phenomena. Clouds can be formed in this way.
What sort of gasses? I wonder what might cause those clouds to not condense at lower altitudes. The atmosphere of Mars is pretty cold, after all.



I am glad you are nearly certainly sure of the composition.
That is the opinion of those who wrote the letter which we are discussing. There aren't a lot of other options, maybe you could offer some.



They don't tell us everything they find out, am I wrong?
Yes. "They" tell "us" pretty much everything that the general public may find interesting. There is a lot of stuff that the general public would be not interested in, in the least. But for those who are interested there is stuff being published all the time.
scholar.google.com...



posted on Feb, 16 2015 @ 09:21 PM
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originally posted by: ChristosteroneA plume extending 200 km in the Martian atmosphere. A phenomenon heretonow considered impossible due to Mars is extremely tin atmosphere.


I'd say it's impossible. Earth's atmosphere is only about 70 miles thick or just over 100 km. Mars' atmosphere would be much less. Whatever is in that image is partly outside of Mars' atmosphere.



posted on Feb, 16 2015 @ 09:24 PM
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Oxygen for example, under extreme pressure, released after a sudden thaw.The gas isn't as important as the reason for or cause of its existence in this desert world. We are learning things that are rewriting physics everyday.
If oxygen or other gases can be found freely in the subsurface of Mars that is a game changer as far as viability is concerned.



posted on Feb, 16 2015 @ 09:32 PM
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a reply to: CryHavoc

Mars' atmosphere would be much less. Whatever is in that image is partly outside of Mars' atmosphere.

You seem to be talking about the Karman line (at 100km). Earth's atmosphere actually extends beyond that. But because of Mars' low gravity, its atmosphere actually extends further than Earth's. It is not as dense but it is "deeper".


But these clouds are apparently very high, indeed.



posted on Feb, 16 2015 @ 09:38 PM
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a reply to: CryHavoc

It seems you are measuring millimeters and converting them to miles.

What gives you this level of confidence and has drug you from the shadows to post?

I'm genuinely curious. I have no place here and am far from a scientist, but I have been enjoying this debate and your certainty of distance caught me off guard.



posted on Feb, 16 2015 @ 09:39 PM
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a reply to: Jonjonj




Oxygen for example, under extreme pressure, released after a sudden thaw.

Ok. Do you know the conditions which are required for oxygen to condense into clouds? (low atmospheric pressure is not one of them) Do we we see clouds of oxygen high in Earth's atmosphere?


If oxygen or other gases can be found freely in the subsurface of Mars that is a game changer as far as viability is concerned.
Yes, indeed.
edit on 2/16/2015 by Phage because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 17 2015 @ 02:15 AM
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originally posted by: VoidHawk
I'm a firm believer that Mars has more of an atmosphere than we are being led to believe.

The dust in that picture ought to fall quite rapidly without an atmosphere, does anyone know how long it was there?


Mars has an atmosphere, not sure where you heard it had none, it has one that is thin but it is there, complete with clouds, weather, storms, etc.

Mars is far from a "dead planet" whoever taught you that Mars was dead was a pretty bad science teacher.



posted on Feb, 17 2015 @ 02:17 AM
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originally posted by: CryHavoc

originally posted by: ChristosteroneA plume extending 200 km in the Martian atmosphere. A phenomenon heretonow considered impossible due to Mars is extremely tin atmosphere.


I'd say it's impossible. Earth's atmosphere is only about 70 miles thick or just over 100 km. Mars' atmosphere would be much less. Whatever is in that image is partly outside of Mars' atmosphere.


Mars's atmosphere while thinner actually extends further.



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