Chris Kyle Murder, More than One Shooter?

a reply to: Phoenix

Okay well the comment I was replying to seemed to not understand having ready access to multiple weapons. Which is why I said what I said.

Now that you've shifted the focus, no, my comment is no longer pertinent.

Though I'm a little confused, because earlier you said your "distinct issue" was the multiple calibers used.

a reply to: Shamrock6

Good point i overlooked about one being on platform other off, thanks for pointing that out. I dont necessarily buy the second shooter ideal. Just i find the story unbelievable especially knowing about the text. Seals are not known for complacency. I read the second weapon was kyles, not sure but likely one used to kill Littlefield, and Littlefield I believe (could be wrong) was not ever military. Also Routh had Kyle's gun on him when captured.

So he used one, ditched it and grabbed Kyles from what I understand.

originally posted by: Shamrock6
a reply to: Phoenix

Okay well the comment I was replying to seemed to not understand having ready access to multiple weapons. Which is why I said what I said.

Now that you've shifted the focus, no, my comment is no longer pertinent.

Though I'm a little confused, because earlier you said your "distinct issue" was the multiple calibers used.

Yeah its just semantics as I'm intending to point out use of two different weapons by a single shooter - multiple calibers comes from court testimony about injury to victims.

Basically it takes certain amount of time to put six rounds into a target drop that weapon and bring into battery another weapon to shoot next victim.

a reply to: Phoenix

YEP something stinks about the 9mm/45acp saga. Not going to happen......Really by the time he aimed and shot the 45 6 times it would take a few seconds and a few seconds more to switch guns.

a reply to: Phoenix

Well if the second weapon is already in battery, it really doesn't take any longer to shoot another target than it does to acquire a sight picture.

As to the gunshots: were they the only ones in the entire complex or just the only ones on that specific line? I haven't seen an answer on that either way.

One other thing: what was the "extensive training" that Littlefield had that would have made him hyper vigilant and prepared to react in a combat scenario?

a reply to: Shamrock6

Ya I was wondering this also and how many other people were at the range that day. It still does take a few seconds to fire off 6 aimed shots and drop that weapon and gain a new sight picture.

originally posted by: Shamrock6
One other thing: what was the "extensive training" that Littlefield had that would have made him hyper vigilant and prepared to react in a combat scenario?

Good point, but really does not change things

originally posted by: SubTruth
a reply to: Shamrock6

Ya I was wondering this also and how many other people were at the range that day. It still does take a few seconds to fire off 6 aimed shots and drop that weapon and gain a new sight picture.

Nobody else was there according to reports

a reply to: Phoenix

Well, it does change things. Your OP is that two "extensively trained" people were killed by a person with "rudimentary" firearm skill.

That's not exactly the case, is it?

As to the reports of them being alone: again, were they the only ones on that particular line, or the only ones on all of the ranges, period? It seems pretty germane to me, since the question of the "extensively trained" Littlefield's reaction to shots being fired is relevant.

Eddie Ray Routh was not an MK-Ultra assassin who was part of some big conspiracy.

He had major mental problems and they weren't just a result of PTSD. He had a few screws loose before he joined the Marines.

That's all I have to say about that.

I still wonder why there hasn't been a step by step account of what happened and how it happened. I cannot understand how people know what they know I can't find anything on the web.

originally posted by: Phoenix

originally posted by: Shamrock6
a reply to: Phoenix

I've taken half a dozen guns to the range on one go. Various handguns, shotguns, and long rifles. That's me. One guy.

Three guys, all of whom are ex military? Still don't think finding two handguns of varying calibers to be weird.

Taking multiple caliber handguns to a range is not the question nor is it an issue rather using two handguns to murder two combat trained individuals is a question that begs an answer.

I'm going to paint a plausible gun range murder picture for you:

1) All 3 shooters arrive and start to lay out the guns they plan to shoot for the day on one table: various pistols, rifles, etc.

2) Littlefield decides to shoot his rifle and wants Kyle to spot him or watch, whatever.

3) Routh says he's going to take some shots with his pistol while they shoot the rifle. Even though it's a "long range rifle" section of the range does not mean a person won't take a few shots with a pistol when no one else is around.

4) While Littlefield is focused on his scope, Routh shoots Kyle. Littlefield hears the muffled shots through his hearing protection but assumes it's just normal fire coming from Routh.

5) After 6 shots from what was likely a 7-8 shot 1911, Routh grabs another handgun laid out on the table and shoots Littlefield before he really knows what's going on. The reports say that the second weapon belonged to Kyle but both victims still had pistols on them... this suggests that, obviously, multiple firearms were present and easily accessible to the shooter.

Applying a little logic and gun-range knowledge to the scenario makes it not-at-all implausible.

a reply to: Answer

I think your scenario is likely but the major mental problems is a BS cop-out. He was an honorable discharged marine (assuming because he was a reservist at time of murder). Has it been made clear if he was ever diagnosed before? I dont know but i doubt it, or he would not have been eligible for active duty or reserves without a painstaking process for a waiver.

a reply to: swimmer15

People who knew him before he joined, his recruiter, and Marines who served with him don't paint a very stellar picture of him prior to joining or during his time in, and after he got out. Granted, none of them offered a medical opinion of him, but they relate incidents of him "snapping" on people. He was in the individual ready reserve, which is an inactive reserve. He wasn't attending weekend drills and so on.

a reply to: Shamrock6

They bring all this forward after the fact, easy to do but never did anything to get in trouble or diagnosed prior too? Im sure a very large percentage of people have snapped on somone before.. Military prob higher, your forced to rely on people who just aren't reliable... If you can get through a tour of active duty without killing somone you demonstrate a hell of a degree of patience.

Want to clearify that some/many are not reliable... There are many who down right handle business.

a reply to: swimmer15

He was an armorer who never saw any combat. His level of having to rely on people is relative.

He beat another Marine for making a crack about his sexuality. He knocked another Marine out for, apparently, no real reason other than he got pissed off. People from his school say he was "always ready to fight" and "had a chip on his shoulder."

Is it all after the fact stuff? Yea, I concede that point. But the alternative is the usual refrain of "he was such a nice guy, who would've thought?" That doesn't seem to be the case here. I'm suspicious of his ptsd claims, but I'm sure the mental health experts will testify about that for days in court.

I think Kyle was a punk! Just like Marcus Luttrell! Both have arrogant inflated egos! Both have outright lied. But Americans worship these guys like they are Capt America or something.

a reply to: Shamrock6

Good points, and you have definitely done your homework better than me. I dont buy the PTSD or mental crap..From my own experience (11 years Navy) i just cant see how he could be sain enough to stay out of trouble unless it is just BS. I've personnaly seen very respectable high ranking senior enlisted and officers get walking papers for "snapping" and they will bust down a junior enlisted for just about anything unless he's a superstar.

originally posted by: MiddleClassWhiteBoy
I think Kyle was a punk! Just like Marcus Luttrell! Both have arrogant inflated egos! Both have outright lied. But Americans worship these guys like they are Capt America or something.

Worship? Lol na, you can look around and see the people americans make rich and see what many Americans worship. Respect yes, but you likely know nothing of it so i wont bother trying to help you understand.