What is Freemasonry? One Mason to another...

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

I don't see masonry as having an objective to become closer to the creator, although that is a by product, or can be.

It's described as a beautiful system of morality, veiled in allegory and illustrated by symbols.

Only basic lessons are imparted to the candidate, and it's up to him to decide how much more learning he wishes.

a reply to: network dude

Forgive me I've read many times in many threads including this that Masonry has been pivotal in an individual's spiritual journey & closeness to God (paraphrasing).



So I took it as an absolute that one can expect that to happen.


My bad!

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

No worries. The stories are based on the Bible, We say an opening and closing prayer, but the lessons are more geared towards morality. Once you move past the basic lessons and start to figure out, everything is about building a spiritual building inside yourself, you look inward to find the creator and your link to him/her.

But i think all that is more likely done outside of masonry and not in the lodge.

But all that is just one guy's opinion, and not one of masonry in general.

a reply to: network dude

A little tidbit for the discussion, and for any Catholics who have fallen into freemasonry:


"Roman Catholics, since 1738 are, under penalty of excommunication, incurred ipso facto, strictly forbidden to enter or promote in any way Masonic societies. "

Your post made me laugh. Thank you.

So this thread has already discussed scholarly and biblical authors and references, really?

Isaiah Chapter 14
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

2 Corinthians 11:14 - And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Luke 10:18 - And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Revelation 12:9 - And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Go ahead and live in your world of fantasy. Heaven is not for everyone.

a reply to: DeathSlayer
Lucifer was never an archangel. Lucifer, according to the Book of Isaiah (the only place Lucifer is mentioned), was a king and that is it. Read the entire book, not one chapter. Learn philology.

The fallen angel was not named Lucifer.

Neither the Masons, the Rosicrucians, or the Knights Templar worship Lucifer or Satan.

As for the Illuminati there is nothing to suggest that they deal with Lucifer or Satan. I have a book on the way concerning the rituals of the Illuminati, I can't wait to read it.

As for "put up or shut up", I say, that is good advice. You make all sorts of claims, but provide little evidence and as the burden of proof lies with you, please "put up or shut up." Post the rituals wherein we Freemasons worship Lucifer.

originally posted by: DeathSlayer


Go ahead and live in your world of fantasy. Heaven is not for everyone.

No doubt. You seem a bit preoccupied with hell anyways.

a reply to: DeathSlayer
It is apparent you are very ignorant in regards to who Lucifer was historically and Biblically as you are on Freemasonry.

All you do is post the same old debunked crap from religious fundamentalist sites. I'm not sure if it is broken record or mindless parrot.

Lucifer was a Babylonian king not Satan/Devil, but whose original name "Helal bin Shahar" meant "Day star, son of the morning" which in Jerome's time was known as Lucifer. It was a poor direct translation and too many people now blindly follow this mistranslation.

"Lord Satan"? Seems like you or your source reveres Satan, not us Freemasons.

Freemasonry isn't a religion because we don't meet the basic requirements to be considered a religion.

The Pike quote you use does not state that we worship or praise Lucifer. It is simply stating the irony that a "light-bearer" would be now called the "prince of darkness." Plus, Pike doesn't, or rather didn't, speak for all of Freemasonry nor is he the #1 Freemason of all time.

Light = knowledge, wisdom, and/or truth.

Your second quote doesn't contradict the first quote as the first quote does not identify Lucifer as the "Masonic Light-bearer."

We don't mislead other Masons. That is a misconception of another quote from Pike, but in reality anti-Masons are cherry picking and misquoting his writing.

There's also nothing Satanic about "Deus Meumque Jus" or about Morals & Dogma. If you knew anything about that Latin phrase, it is translated commonly as "God and my Right", but it could more accurately be translated as "God and my moral rightness". Just because some fundamentalist nutbag "Doc Marquis" says something, doesn't mean it is correct. Your interpretation of the Latin phrase is an assumption only; well your entire argument is filled with logical fallacies.

As for the Hall quote, he wrote that book decades before joining the Freemasons. Plus, he wasn't referring to some misconception that Lucifer was/is Satan. Again, you keep quoting from public books, but I have yet to see you post from our ritual.

Nowhere does Baphomet appear in Masonic ritual. The quote you use again doesn't state that Freemasonry believes this. He simply states what he thought the Gnostics believed. Morals & Dogma is essentially a comparison of Freemasonry to other beliefs, faiths, and religions. Though Pike was wrong on a great deal in his book and there are now abridged versions today that have corrected a great deal.

How is Eliphas Levi one of the foremost Freemasons of all time? He was initiated into Lodge Rose du Parfait Silence in France on March 14th, 1861, and dropped from the membership rolls on August 21st of that same year; that's 160 of him being a Mason.

There is no "huge" use of a "Satanic Pentagram" in Freemasonry. The use of the star in the Eastern Star is not Satanic. Nor does being a member of the Eastern Star make one a Mason. The Eastern Star is very Christian in its ritual and meanings. Plus, the thought that the inverted pentagram/star is Satanic is a recent idea.

The Square & Compass is not a "secret pentagram".

Blah, blah, blah more anti-Pike misquoting blah blah blah

FYI, Blavatsky wasn't a Mason and as such her words are as relevant as yours.

Why do you believe that the Ancient Mysteries worshiped Satan?

a reply to: DeathSlayer
Do what? Post debunked anti-Mason propaganda with some kind ignorantly held sense of smug satisfaction?

Pike was not the "founding father". If you knew anything you'd know that Freemasonry existed long before Pike was born. If you knew anything, you'd realize the Scottish Rite, to which Pike is primarily remembered for, and the Supreme Council of the US were founded before Pike was ever born. Really, American Freemasonry, particularly the Lodge and the York Rite, owes more to Thomas Smith-Webb than Pike.

Your statement is full of crap. Carr made up a great deal and never cited his sources; something indicative of most ignorant anti-Masons.

Aleister Crowley was an active 33rd degree Mason (Scottish Rite) and he did not worship the God we know to be in heaven.

Crowley was not a recognized Mason. He joined an irregular body and it is by his word that he ever received the 33rd...from...wait for it...an irregular, clandestine group of "Scottish Rite Masons". In fact, when he attempted to attend Lodge in the US and England, he was denied entry because no one considered him a Mason.

a reply to: Wifibrains
Freemasonry supports freedom for all.

a reply to: DeathSlayer
You have stated no facts. You have taken truths and twisted them with your misinterpretations until they are no longer facts, they are propaganda and fallacies.

You say you have pulled from our "own Masonic handbooks", but I have yet to see you pull from our ritual.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs
Religion isn't discussed during Lodge.

a reply to: Seamrog
Freemasonry isn't a hole or a pit to fall into.

The Catholic Church is wrong to do such a thing, but then their record isn't spotless.

a reply to: DeathSlayer
Maybe you should read Isaiah 14:4 - "That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!"

”Flammas eius lucifer matutinus inveniat: ille, inquam, Lucifer, qui nescit occasum, Christus Fillus tuus, qui, regressus ab inferis, humano generi serenus illuxit, et vivit et regnat, in saecula, saeculorum."

originally posted by: Abednego
”Flammas eius lucifer matutinus inveniat: ille, inquam, Lucifer, qui nescit occasum, Christus Fillus tuus, qui, regressus ab inferis, humano generi serenus illuxit, et vivit et regnat, in saecula, saeculorum."

2 Peter 1:19 Et habemus firmiorem propheticum sermonem: cui benefacitis attendentes quasi lucernæ lucenti in caliginoso donec dies elucescat, et lucifer oriatur in cordibus vestris:

Here, lucifer clearly refers to Christ and is also from the fourth century Latin Vulgate translation of the Bible. Modern translations ALL unequivocally understand lucifer in this context to mean Christ.

Great thread, I really have enjoyed reading through this and appreciate all the information and opinions being offered here. Even though I'm non religious, I've always had a very strong interest in religions, secret societies and just really any other form of old belief systems as they pass through the hands of time. I admit that I know very little about them, but in my defense there is just so much to read and learn. So this has been a nice read and very informational.

a reply to: Saurus

Exactly.

a reply to: DeathSlayer

Yeah, it addresses many of those specific mistranslations from Aramiac to Greek and finally to Latin.

If you spent some time reading it you would see this.

Found this today, sounds very similar to other texts I've read. But not quite the same
greatseal.com...

Source of NOVUS ORDO SECLORUM

The original Latin in Virgil's Eclogue IV (line 5) is: "Magnus ab integro seclorum nascitur ordo."

For a better sense of its meaning, below are two translations (by James Rhoades and by C. S. Calverley) of the passage at the beginning of Virgil's poem which refers to the Sibyl who prophesied the fate of the Roman empire.

Now the last age by Cumae's Sibyl sung Has come and gone, and the majestic roll Of circling centuries begins anew: Justice returns, returns old Saturn's reign, With a new breed of men sent down from heaven. Only do thou, at the boy's birth in whom The iron shall cease, the golden age arise. . . Under thy guidance, whatso tracks remain Of our old wickedness, once done away Shall free the earth from never-ceasing fear. He shall receive the life of gods, and see Heroes with gods commingling, and himself Be seen of them, and with his father's worth Reign o'er a world at peace.

Come are those last days that the Sybil sang: The ages' mighty march begins anew. Now come the virgin, Saturn reigns again: Now from high heaven descends a wondrous race. Thou on the newborn babe – who first shall end That age of iron, bid a golden dawn. . . Thou, trampling out what prints our crimes have left, Shalt free the nations from perpetual fear. While he to bliss shall waken; with the Blest See the Brave mingling, and be seen of them, Ruling that world o'er which his father's arm shed peace.

a reply to: ThereIsNoHandle

What is the relation to the Original Post?

originally posted by: Saurus

originally posted by: Tangerine

As a pantheist (not a panentheist), how were you able to answer yes? I'm not suggesting that you were dishonest. I just wonder how you conceive of a supreme being. Judging by your icon, I assume that you are an occultist. My pagan friend, who is an accomplished occultist, said he saw similarities to occult orders but most of the lodge members who had not been exposed to that sort of thing were not aware of it.

My apologies for my earlier typo. I am more of a panentheist, not a pantheist. I tried to fix it when I saw it, but was too late.

I am an occultist. I believe deeply in a Supreme Being.

I believe that there is one God. No more, no less.

God manifests and relates to different people in different ways. Each manifestation of God must fit in with a person's culture, or that person will not accept God. Therefore, a Hindu, who's culture dictates that God is mystical by nature, will readily accept God as an elephant's head on a human body, but would struggle with the idea of God being a mortal man.

A Westerner, who's culture dictates that Western religion is more ethical than mystical, would not accept a man with an elephant's head as being a God, but, in line with their culture, needed God to appear as a Man with moral and ethical teachings. It is what a Westerner relates to.

In order for God to be known to all, God must manifest to different peoples in different ways. As with the Holy Trinity, which are three manifestations of God required to explain different attributes of God, so there are more manifestations, each which are accepted by other people around the world.

The act of dividing the different manifestations into different 'religions' is a human idea. Three to Trinitarian Christians, many to the Egyptians, many to the Hindus.

Thoth is God. Ganesha is God. Hermes is God.
Yet, there is one God - no more, no less.

This is my belief. Some Freemasons agree with my belief. Most do not.

Thank you for clarifying that you are a panentheist and not a pantheist. That puts your post in an entirely different context. For a minute there, I thought you'd jumped the rails.

Do freemasons perform rituals on behalf of or in obeyance to a supernatural deity or is deity completely absent from all Masonic rituals?

originally posted by: Tangerine
Do freemasons perform rituals on behalf of or in obeyance to a supernatural deity or is deity completely absent from all Masonic rituals?

There is a generic opening and closing prayer to God and a few similar invocations interspersed in the Degrees.

originally posted by: Saurus

originally posted by: Tangerine

...
Masons must believe in God or they won't be accepted. However, once a person is a Mason, we do not ask again as it is of no concern to us.

...

Is there an explanation in the history/documents of freemasonry for why this belief is vitally important to freemasonry? I believe you've been very forthcoming about all of this but I get a conflicting message from you and other freemasons when I ask about the role of God. If not believing in a supreme creator being is a disqualifier for being a Mason, it would seem that the belief is integral and is incorporated throughout freemasonry. Otherwise, why would lack of belief be a disqualifier? I don't think whether this supreme creator being is referred to as God or the Great Architect (or whatever) makes a difference. What does make a difference is whether reference to it occurs in ritual. As an occultist, you understand why I'm asking.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: Tangerine
Do freemasons perform rituals on behalf of or in obeyance to a supernatural deity or is deity completely absent from all Masonic rituals?

There is a generic opening and closing prayer to God and a few similar invocations interspersed in the Degrees.

Do these opening and closing prayers/invocations reference appealing to God (Great Architect, whatever) in some manner or acting in obeyance to God in some manner? For example, "may God watch over us", "may God guide us", "may God judge us", "may God reward us", 'may God punish our enemies", 'may God grant our prayers/desires", or "may we serve God", "may we obey God", "may we do as God wishes" or words to that effect?