South Africa’s untold truths about Post-Apartheid.

a reply to: Onslaught2996

That is not even close to what I said. Black people was given right, rightfully so, but that rights was abused by the following generations. They will not vote for the most competent leaders, they will vote for those who give them promises. They vote for black leaders, and those leaders take advantage of the votes. If you can promise them houses, clean water, and free electricity, then you have their vote.

But after the elections, the leaders enjoy the life of royalty, not giving a %^&% about what happens to the people how voted them in. The leaders of SA are abusing the history of Apartheid for their own benefit. The government has become entirely corrupt. They live off the fears of an repeat apartheid in the minds of the black middle class.

The problem is not the end of Apartheid, its the government that came after that.

originally posted by: Tusks
South Africa will get worse and worse. The older Blacks who remember how much better it was with the Whites in control (excepting the 1% -2% now milking all the taxes and feeding off the remains of what had been built) are in the process of dying off. TPTB intended this as part of the plan to eliminate White Christian culture, and it is going predictably to chaos. Their coming new order will exclude many of these useless eaters. There is no answer.

Yeah Tusk, I am sure they love to reflect on the good ol dayz of yeesa Boss , beatings,internal I'ds ,mass imprisonments and state murders, the fact is South Africa in the past was not a democracy, wealth was by design concentrated by a minority population at the expense of the majority, running a democracy is messy, if the new leadership is mostly incompetent and corrupt , then the people will hopefully make the necessary changes, your not so thinly veiled White supremacist views not withstanding.

And while I am in no way religious I wished the Majority would stop worshiping some largely fictitious bearded dead white guy hanging on a cross, if they are going to go that route (I wished they wouldn't) then worship some equally fictitious bearded dead Black guy hanging on a cross, at-least he would be a lot closer to

The Original

a reply to: noeltrotsky

Sure a police state that keeps the vast majority of the population suppressed will have one of the best military. Funny how you take 'pride' in SA soldiers going to fight WITH Hitler.

Are you accusing me of supporting Hitler? Sure sounds like it. Hitler thought we had some of the best soldiers to train his own, just like he thought he could get a better deal on fuel for his tanks from America.

You understand that to correct Apartheid that you need to enforce racial balance in society right? If you just stock the military leaders all up with white people you go down the road to Apartheid again.

Why choose people on their skin colour, why not because they are the right person for the job? If a black man is better than me at his his job, then sure, promote him over me. But don't promote someone just because he is a black man and you don't want white people in higher positions.

This is racism all over again, just in the other direction.

What does a clear lack of funding for health care have to do with Apartheid???

This is not a problem of lack of funding. I would sure want to know how you came to that conclusion. Many millions are being wasted by the Department. I know, I use to be a sub-contractor for their new renovations. Most of them drive a Mercedes, and they will pay the highest price for their unneeded 'upgrades'.

Why would you replace Otis elevators in great condition, with a no-name brand in every Department building?
Why would you through away every desk in your building and replace it with imported hand-crafted desks?
Why would you strip out every single AC unit in your buildings and switch to a new contract every year?

There is no lack of funding, but a lot of financial mismanagement.

Again, what does a lack of funding in education have to do with Blacks being treated equally???

Again, why would you think this is a problem of lack of funding? The Minister of education did not even complete high-school, so how can she run the education department?

Are you arguing that the SA government, filled with Blacks now, has run the country into the ground since they were given the vote? This seems to be your argument...however you have provided no sources whatsoever to support your 'stories'.

That is my argument, yes. This is not stories you will find in the newspaper of the news (Talking about the military). But there is loads of news articles on the other events.

In that link SA is applauded for it progressive welfare system to help poor people.

Its still not a great thing if your 'welfare system' is improving despite the fact that the majority of South Africans are still without water, housing, jobs or income.

In this link the government says it has added 3.5 million jobs over the past 20 years and increased the overall economy by over 80%. HIV has been brought under control and education has been expanded to include millions that never got a formal education before...oddly Farmers teaching isn't considered very good like you think.

Adding 3.5 million jobs is still not great when there is 54 million South Africans, when 13.5 million is still unemployed.

HIV is not as under-control as you think. And it doesn't really matter if you bring education to millions of people, when your education ranking is near the bottom of the list in the world, and a national pass-rate in the low 50s.

It's disappointing to see some in SA still cling to old notions like Apartheid.

The tables has only turned, but Apartheid is still a very active thing in SA. The only difference is that this time it is the black people in control of apartheid.

a reply to: Spider879

fictitious bearded dead white guy hanging on a cross

Even is He was fictitious, He was not white, He was Hebrew!!

originally posted by: IndependentOpinion
a reply to: Spider879

fictitious bearded dead white guy hanging on a cross

Even is He was fictitious, He was not white, He was Hebrew!!

A Hebrew can be white, Black or anyone else,my point to Tusk was his assumed superiority of "White Christian" orthodoxy and that his view on what a Christian is supposed to be or even look like is all that matters.

a reply to: Spider879

Fair enough, but lets look at this objectively by looking at the religious/cultural deference.

Christians (regardless of race, and not talking about extremists)

All life is sacred.
Respect one another.
Respect the laws of your country.

Whatever the Black people believe

Kills people for organs to use in muti.
The rules of the sangoma is higher than any other law.
Will do anything the spirits of their for-fathers tell them.
Children will behead and cut of the legs of owls, because they 'believe' owls are even omens

I would say that it is better for a country to be run by christians instead of people that kill for superstition.

originally posted by: IndependentOpinion
a reply to: Spider879

Fair enough, but lets look at this objectively by looking at the religious/cultural deference.

Christians (regardless of race, and not talking about extremists)

All life is sacred.
Respect one another.
Respect the laws of your country.

Whatever the Black people believe

Kills people for organs to use in muti.
The rules of the sangoma is higher than any other law.
Will do anything the spirits of their for-fathers tell them.
Children will behead and cut of the legs of owls, because they 'believe' owls are even omens

I would say that it is better for a country to be run by christians instead of people that kill for superstition.

Well I disagree somewhat, you said not go into extremes buuut the inquisition was based off a superstitious belief that the power of witches was a real thing, murdering millions mostly women, not ended till the 1800rds , the superstitious belief in an most magical crucifix is not one wit, less superstitious than the belief that one can see meaning in chicken bones, condemning entire people into slavery and taking their lands because they believe in some thing called the Curse of Ham, less we forget a Christian named King Leopard the II, murdered 10 million people in the space of 10yrs maimed millions more, mismanaged the Congo and turned it into that heart of Darkness we love to hate today, the Spaniards burned the intellectual property of the the Meso Americans based off their superstitions,lost forever is their works, the modern belief that GOD is going to lift the believers to the heaven while he cleanse the earth in a bath of fire and destruction is not a fringe thing, these folks are especially dangerous for they have money and influence in government working against any peace deal with the Palestinians, they are for rebuilding of the temple of Jerusalem which will destroy the Al Asqa mosque in turn they hope will kick off Armageddon, as they await the second coming of Christ in safety.
So no! I don't necessarily believe the Christians are more morally superior than anyone else just that their voodoo is different from other folks voodoo.
And finally folks with traditional belief systems tend to leave others alone no matter the horrors they cause internally, the people of the BOOK Christians,and Muslims cannot help themselves Jews get somewhat of a pass on this because they are the least likely to proselytize although still very dangerous and superstitious .

a reply to: Spider879

I understand what you are saying, but it is kind of irreverent. He are talking about Christians in SA, not the rest of the world.

Massive sociatal changes allways destroy thing.

Apathiec should have been slowly phased out over a decade or two.

I must admit, most of what I know of nowadays problems in SA are from Madam and Eve, which seems to display modern SA in a realistic way. Last visits to SA were about a decade ago.

Eskom: The Prince of Darkness. No solution here, it seems.
ANC: Corruption at its "finest". Bad bad news.
Education: Well, 10 years ago the future seemed much brighter than today. It was thought that a rise in education would result in a rising middleclass (black, colored, etc. - sorry if not-PC, not intended). Seems that this didn't happen.
Crime: Not really better than 10 years ago, I guess. Jo'burg is one of the cities where I wouldn't want to travel to, still.


Nothing really happened. Some old faces have faded away, Jacob Zuma seems to be still there...

originally posted by: IndependentOpinion
a reply to: Spider879

I understand what you are saying, but it is kind of irreverent. He are talking about Christians in SA, not the rest of the world.

I am including Christians in SA, after all the the curse of Ham thing gave moral justification to take what's there, and lets be clear here, it was European technology that won the day, Whatever happens, we have got
The Maxim gun, and they have not!.. to quote Hilaire Belloc.
Not some Christian morality concept, many a pagan or traditional African civilizations were successful even in Southern Africa before Europeans came, that they got out paced due largely to the renaissance era in Europe well that's just history, the world turns.

originally posted by: crazyewok
Massive sociatal changes allways destroy thing.

Apathiec should have been slowly phased out over a decade or two.

No it should not, mis-steps will be made, in the US Of A no one waited for King Georgie to give freedom to the colonies they took it! fought a civil war decades later for all kinds of reasons including the right to free others in bondage, it took decades later yet to grant females the right to vote, and decades later to end Jim crow, no one would suggest that the founders phased out British rule over a decade or two,they tried to fix things as they go,give them the same chance to muck-it up and fix it, the same way we did and are in the process of doing in the U.S

a reply to: Spider879

It worked ( and barley remember that little civil war of yours) cause it was 1783 and times were a lot more simple.

The colony's were already more or less detached from the crown anyway. Your idea of "tyranny" was paying a few taxes without having MP's in our parliament.

They did not have the same healthcare and the same Education and welfare issues of today.

Racial problems were delayed for another few decades with slavery been kept on. The USA did not have to deal with the race mess until the mid the mid 1800's.


I know Americans have a self centered view of the world but here are some cold hard factors.

THE WORLD IS NOT THE USA

THE USA IS NOT THE CENTER OF CIVILIZATION

WHAT WORKS OR WORKED IN THE USA WILL NOT NECESSARILY WORK IN THE REST OF THE WORLD

THE WORLD DOES NOT ALL WANT AMERICAN STYLE FREEDUMB

originally posted by: noeltrotsky
a reply to: Onslaught2996

Sometimes I think being able to see who starred a post would be nice...

Yes why would that be nice ?
What are you insinuating-Grow up!

South Africa, is one of the very few examples of a relatively peaceful transition to universal suffrage for all. I believe that the transition was morally correct, yet premature.

This says much about it's people that are to this day demonised.
In the same year (1994), The Ruanda Genocide happened.
Makes you think...

The strife was not so much white against black, but more against the communist ideologies, and the barbaric faction fighting amongst the many black faction(tribes) within the country.

The ANC was ,and will always be a half baked terrorist organisation, not capable of much good.
They committed cruel atrocities beyond comprehension, and still do.

They have completely decimated all the 1st world public institutions, through incompetent cadre deployment and blatant corruption.

I have hope that when the old "revolutionaries" die, and the born "frees" (who have adopted western ideologies) are in control, things will begin to get better. This will probably take one or two generations.

There is not much in traditional african culture( misogyny, witchcraft, primitivism, etc ), that seems worth retaining going forward.

It's a great tragedy that the darker africans never took it upon them selves to educate their own children, and also that most of their history is lost through the lack of written language.

If you read up on the traditional african creation myths, orally preserved by Credo Mutwa, it may shock you to the core.

well here is a little glimpse into the current state of affairs in sa:
mybroadband.co.za...

Last month, at a lekgotla, the ANC national executive committee (NEC) and, later at another, the Cabinet decided to take over some of the utility’s communication responsibilities to try to control the information that is released publicly and, especially, what they believe should be kept secret. A Cabinet source said the government was worried about how Eskom’s communications were affecting the government negatively. “They are saying things and they are not realising how it is affecting us politically,” the source said. He said the government was struggling to “align Eskom’s message to our political message”. “We are concerned. We can’t have a state entity that is communicating a different message to what we are communicating,” he said.

a reply to: IndependentOpinion

The black people of those days got the same level of education from the farmers.

Really? It's my understanding that black South Africans had a poor and segregated education that wasn't designed for creating middle-classes. A pre-1994 non-Afrikaans education was generally limited to making people a literate and numerate working class with skills for work.

White schools got way more funding and smaller class sizes whereas black schools had twice as many pupils per class and fewer in-school resources. After the Interim Constitution 1994, you were left with lousy educational infrastructure, poorly trained teachers from poorly educated backgrounds and a generation coming up who were a product of the system.

Half of your population is under-24 and the majority of them have a poor standard of education. These are the leaders, employers and creators of the South African future.

What you seem to be suggesting is that black South Africans never had it so good. Or that they've brought this on themselves? Or that maybe white governance should return and bring back a more acceptable apartheid to raise the standards again?

I fact checked my opinions before posting:

How South Africans Rate their Quality of Life. (pdf) The polls show that whites still enjoy the highest (perceived) levels of happiness and life satisfaction. Of four described 'races,' whites are top and blacks are bottom. However when scored for optimism, whites are lowest and blacks the highest (fig.1).

Apartheid's Enduring Legacy: Inequalities in Education; der Berg (2007) Poor pass rates, high pupil:teacher rations and stifled economic growth.

School Inputs and Educational Outcomes in South AFrica; Case & Deaton; Princeton U (1999). Class size issues, limited resources like white boards, books, technology etc.

a reply to: Kandinsky

Look, I am not saying that there was no such thing as Apartheid, nor am I saying that black people was treated just as well as white people on all aspects of their daily life. I know that white people were better of than black people, but compared to what black people have in SA today, they were better of in some aspects such as living conditions, clean water, and healthcare.

White schools got way more funding and smaller class sizes whereas black schools had twice as many pupils per class and fewer in-school resources.

That is logical because black schools was mostly informal schools.

What you seem to be suggesting is that black South Africans never had it so good. Or that they've brought this on themselves?

Many black people have actually said that they had better education and better living conditions back in the days of Apartheid. But that is because the quality of both these things, and others, has gone downhill.

I am not saying that they brought this on themselves directly, but in a sense, yes. They voted for what we have not, and they keep on voting for this in every election. ANC has always been the one party that was only looking after their own interests, (Well the EFF has become a close second in just a few years).

90% of SA is black, so how can we (white people) still be calling the shots, and be responsible for the poverty and suffering of black people? I know it happens, but how many white people are born in a shack, with no running water, or food or electricity, compared to black people? About a 70% higher amount in blacks, because they dominate they population.

The polls show that whites still enjoy the highest (perceived) levels of happiness and life satisfaction. Of four described 'races,' whites are top and blacks are bottom. However when scored for optimism, whites are lowest and blacks the highest (fig.1).

I do not know of any person that participated in that poll, so where then did they get the data form? If you do the exact same study across SA, you will find different results for every city. If this poll was taken at my neighborhood, interviewing every single person, White people will come out at the top, because this is a fairly stable and mostly white neighborhood. BUT, if you take this poll in the neighborhood where our worker lives, then Blacks will come out on top because there black people dominate the neighborhood's population.

It that is not a country wide poll, getting input from each and every South African, then that poll's results is inconclusive in my view. Understand what I am saying?

When I read 70,000 whites murdered sice 1994, did the numbers on that divided into 4,000,000 there today, then if one stretched that to an average lifespan of 80ish years, well.................. That means there's a 1 in 14.28 chance of being murdered if you are white and live theoretically to 80. That is mental. Bet a lot now wish they'd kept things safe and kept the reigns of power. By going liberal the whites shot themselves in the foot, also shot everybody elses's foot too.

Tell me something, are the Indian/Asian/Chinese community finding it more difficult too post 1994? Are they discriminated against like the whites?

a reply to: IndependentOpinion

originally posted by: noeltrotsky

originally posted by: IndependentOpinion
Black people back then had everything us whites had, eccept the right to vote.

You are delusional.

Reposted because you are that delusional.