I am not an atheist by choice

originally posted by: poncho1982

They are. The tactics are the same.

You think the threat of incredible violence, torture and suffering for all eternity is comparable to mockery and satire?

Is this why places get blown up when a god is mocked?

a reply to: Prezbo369

Argumentum ad populum. Just because it is the dominant belief doesn't mean it is correct. If god exists do YOU think that it would be the Abrahamic god considering the claims about it from its various holy books?

originally posted by: Prezbo369

originally posted by: poncho1982

They are. The tactics are the same.

You think the threat of incredible violence, torture and suffering for all eternity is comparable to mockery and satire?

Is this why places get blown up when a god is mocked?

I asked him to be more specific about this & he told me to reread his earlier post, lol. I've been following the thread, I'm glad you were able to formulate a more specific question than I was.

originally posted by: Serdgiam
a reply to: Annee

Love the conversion attempt!

Really clever question Euni..

I, like most, have faith that my perspective is somehow tied to reality in an applicable sense. When it comes to specifics, such as God(s), the only pertinent ideas are that our minds are inherently incapable of omniscience and to carefully choose defining parameters for the universe we experience.

I do not understand your conversion comment.

If you're familiar with my posting style, you'd know I'm very straight forward. I meant what I posted.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Prezbo369

Argumentum ad populum. Just because it is the dominant belief doesn't mean it is correct. If god exists do YOU think that it would be the Abrahamic god considering the claims about it from its various holy books?

Whoa there, I'm of course not saying that it's the correct definition! its the definition we are most likely to encounter and the definition we will/we were presented to when asked 'do you believe in god?' (FYI I do not have belief in the existence of gods).

And the general definition given for gods can be applied to other religions not just the Aramaic ones.....so again. can we agree that there is a definition general enough for a response to be given to the above question?

a reply to: Prezbo369

But if I were to call myself an atheist over an incorrect version of god then that would be like saying I don't believe in horses because unicorns aren't real. I cannot settle for a definition that I am most likely to encounter. It needs to be defined precisely before I can measure belief.

For instance. We know what a ghost is. It is the disembodied spirit of a dead person. That is a precise definition we can work with to prove existence. I can give an opinion on likelihood of existence based on known evidence about it. Meanwhile, the definition of god can change at a whim, even among practicers of the Abrahamic faiths. It's too ambiguous.

There are so many miracles that everyone should have some faith in God. I'm shocked that so many ATSers reject God and Jesus. If you have not experienced a miracle, watch Youtube's: "The Best Stories of People who have seen Heaven and Hell". There are countless such stories and ALL the people cannot be telling similar lies (esp Muslims that Jesus spoke to). Like UFO's: some people lie but there are too many honest people telling similar stories for the public to be UFO atheists or agnostics. If you want to sell your soul to the Devil like Bob Dylan, the price you'll pay is to much (if you did, rebuke him and call on Jesus). Life is short so don't get caught short on your soul's salvation and spend eternity regretting your error.

originally posted by: roberthsiddelljr
There are so many miracles that everyone should have some faith in God.

What is a miracle and how do you prove God did it?

I've had plenty of paranormal experiences and OBEs. Even one where I met a tall man in a long white robe.

I still lack belief in a God (religious concept).

I do believe we are all connected via an energy consciousness, that can have an effect on how some things happen.

a reply to: roberthsiddelljr

Miracles like what? What about these events makes them miracles and how do you know that the source of these miracles is god?

The reason that people on ATS deny God so much is because we deny ignorance, not embrace it. Religion is based on confirmation bias and that isn't how you discover the secrets of the universe.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
But if I were to call myself an atheist over an incorrect version of god then that would be like saying I don't believe in horses because unicorns aren't real.

All you need is a general overview, just like the one you gave for ghosts (whatever a 'spirit' is anyway....), such as:

A supreme being and principal object of faith, of great power and knowledge that created the universe.

Which pretty much describes all the gods ever conjured up.

So in terms that are useful in everyday life, the type of lives we no doubt both live, yes you have more than enough to construct a response.

Besides its the theists in question's job to give you the correct definition when asking you the question as they're the one's making the clam. If they don't meet up to that expectation, then again, you can reject their claim, meaning you wouldn't have belief, making you a....

I cannot settle for a definition that I am most likely to encounter. It needs to be defined precisely before I can measure belief.

Like I said, in terms that are useful......as due to the nature of this beast, you'll more than likely never get a 100% precise definition.

a reply to: Annee

among other things, i am humanist. my stance is that no deity, contrived or otherwise, should compromise the psychological and emotional well-being of the human race.

I am telling the truth to the best of my ability. I and probably most Christians cannot give you a scientific proof like in math/physics (my BS degree) but rather like a scientific theory or legal proof based on the preponderance of evidence. The Holy Shroud supports the Gospel's accounts of Jesus' death and that gives reason to believe the rest of the Gospel stories might be true. I have a lot of faith in the stories of Jesus appearing to people to witness to them (esp Muslims who have denied Christ) and in people's NDEs of Heaven and Hell (although some strike me as a Satanic deception). A couple personal experiences did it for me. One was after my wife divorced me and I couldn't sleep and was dying of a broken heart. I begged Jesus to help me. Immediately I felt a viscous liquid pour onto my head and begin to run down. The next thing I remember was waking up feeling fantastic like I had slept 10 hours and the pain was gone. About a month later, a preacher from South Africa visiting a church I'd never been to before gave me a message from Christ: "You have a very heavy load to bear; it was I who came and put my arm around you". Also, I spoke up at a Republican Party meeting and said our candidates should dance around "choice" because the majority support it. Two nights later, I was awakened at about 3 AM by an angel about 8 feet tall dressed like a Roman soldier. He said: "You have prided yourself on having never killed anyone but I am Michael and have just come from the Throne of God to tell you that you murdered your own daughter". He looked to his right and a teenage girl who looked a lot like my son but sounded like my daughter said: "I love you daddy" and they both disappeared. I have no reason to believe that the six miracles I've experienced came from other than God The Father.

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: Annee

among other things, i am humanist. my stance is that no deity, contrived or otherwise, should compromise the psychological and emotional well-being of the human race.

I agree.

It really annoys me when science, such as stem cells, is blocked because of a God belief.

We'd be so much further along in science, space exploration, humanity, etc ---- if it wasn't for the God nonsense.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: Prezbo369

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Prezbo369

Why do you think there are only two sides to an argument? Dualism is a failed idea and as a student of science you should know that the universe very rarely works that way. There is a reason you cannot describe the universe in binary. Quantum computing makes a strong case for the yes, no, maybe paradigm, so I'd say that your yes/no argument is too constraining. It's more complicated than that.

Throwing science and quantum computing at the confusion of a definition seems a little over the top and kinda ineffectual.

Atheists are non-beleivers, they lack belief, as are agnostics.

Believers have reached the conclusion that there is a God. Atheists have reached the conclusion that there is no God. Agnostics have not reached the conclusion that there is or is not a God. Do you see the difference?

Lacking belief in a god is not a conclusion that there is no god.

Do you interests in anything more substantive than simple definitions? Haven't we wasted enough time on this? Perhaps it would be more fruitful to discuss what people believe and why. Do you agree? Would you like to start?

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Prezbo369

Argumentum ad populum. Just because it is the dominant belief doesn't mean it is correct. If god exists do YOU think that it would be the Abrahamic god considering the claims about it from its various holy books?

I certainly hope not. If he does, the only justification for worshipping him would be abject fear.

originally posted by: roberthsiddelljr
There are so many miracles that everyone should have some faith in God. I'm shocked that so many ATSers reject God and Jesus. If you have not experienced a miracle, watch Youtube's: "The Best Stories of People who have seen Heaven and Hell". There are countless such stories and ALL the people cannot be telling similar lies (esp Muslims that Jesus spoke to). Like UFO's: some people lie but there are too many honest people telling similar stories for the public to be UFO atheists or agnostics. If you want to sell your soul to the Devil like Bob Dylan, the price you'll pay is to much (if you did, rebuke him and call on Jesus). Life is short so don't get caught short on your soul's salvation and spend eternity regretting your error.

Really? Name three miracles and cite the testable evidence proving that your god caused those miracle to happen.

originally posted by: roberthsiddelljr
I am telling the truth to the best of my ability. I and probably most Christians cannot give you a scientific proof like in math/physics (my BS degree) but rather like a scientific theory or legal proof based on the preponderance of evidence. The Holy Shroud supports the Gospel's accounts of Jesus' death and that gives reason to believe the rest of the Gospel stories might be true. I have a lot of faith in the stories of Jesus appearing to people to witness to them (esp Muslims who have denied Christ) and in people's NDEs of Heaven and Hell (although some strike me as a Satanic deception). A couple personal experiences did it for me. One was after my wife divorced me and I couldn't sleep and was dying of a broken heart. I begged Jesus to help me. Immediately I felt a viscous liquid pour onto my head and begin to run down. The next thing I remember was waking up feeling fantastic like I had slept 10 hours and the pain was gone. About a month later, a preacher from South Africa visiting a church I'd never been to before gave me a message from Christ: "You have a very heavy load to bear; it was I who came and put my arm around you". Also, I spoke up at a Republican Party meeting and said our candidates should dance around "choice" because the majority support it. Two nights later, I was awakened at about 3 AM by an angel about 8 feet tall dressed like a Roman soldier. He said: "You have prided yourself on having never killed anyone but I am Michael and have just come from the Throne of God to tell you that you murdered your own daughter". He looked to his right and a teenage girl who looked a lot like my son but sounded like my daughter said: "I love you daddy" and they both disappeared. I have no reason to believe that the six miracles I've experienced came from other than God The Father.

I suggest that you read the DSM-V to look for other possible explanations. You might also explore various paranormal beliefs and other religions. Bottom line, a strong belief is not testable evidence. Holy shroud? I imagine you mean the Shroud of Turin which has been dated and debunked.

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: Prezbo369

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Prezbo369

Why do you think there are only two sides to an argument? Dualism is a failed idea and as a student of science you should know that the universe very rarely works that way. There is a reason you cannot describe the universe in binary. Quantum computing makes a strong case for the yes, no, maybe paradigm, so I'd say that your yes/no argument is too constraining. It's more complicated than that.

Throwing science and quantum computing at the confusion of a definition seems a little over the top and kinda ineffectual.

Atheists are non-beleivers, they lack belief, as are agnostics.

Believers have reached the conclusion that there is a God. Atheists have reached the conclusion that there is no God. Agnostics have not reached the conclusion that there is or is not a God. Do you see the difference?

Lacking belief in a god is not a conclusion that there is no god.

Haven't we wasted enough time on this?

Yes we have.

You listen to no one. And continue to try to write your own dictionary.

Let me know if you ever get a publisher.

To Tangerine: Please open YOUR mind just a little. What has been debunked is the Middle Ages date. There were "modern" threads in the sample that were not discovered until well after the (incorrect) date was announced. Also, the cleaning process may have been inadequate and all the bacteria were probably not removed. Efforts are underway to obtain a better sample. As for other explanations, can you show reasons why we should doubt God The Father did "my" miracles (since Michael said he came from The throne of God and the South African preacher said he was relaying God's/Jesus' messages); how much simpler can it get! Have you heard of Occam's Razor (simplest reason is probably the best). Regarding the saving voice when I was about to crash, the breeze that saved me and the voice telling me to get my wife on the right path: there was no definite reason to ascribe the first two to God but I go first to Occam's Razor. The eyes wide open message was about getting on the right path which is very common Christian language. My sixth miracle was a vivid dream delivered by The Virgin Mary about a deadly South Florida flood she told me to warn people about. I'm Protestant and have concerns about Marian Apparitions but the things she showed me check out with science (which I did not know at the time) and with the Florida Div of Emerg Mgt. Keep looking up for signs in the Heavens and Jesus' return.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: Prezbo369

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Prezbo369

Why do you think there are only two sides to an argument? Dualism is a failed idea and as a student of science you should know that the universe very rarely works that way. There is a reason you cannot describe the universe in binary. Quantum computing makes a strong case for the yes, no, maybe paradigm, so I'd say that your yes/no argument is too constraining. It's more complicated than that.

Throwing science and quantum computing at the confusion of a definition seems a little over the top and kinda ineffectual.

Atheists are non-beleivers, they lack belief, as are agnostics.

Believers have reached the conclusion that there is a God. Atheists have reached the conclusion that there is no God. Agnostics have not reached the conclusion that there is or is not a God. Do you see the difference?

Lacking belief in a god is not a conclusion that there is no god.

Haven't we wasted enough time on this?

Yes we have.

You listen to no one. And continue to try to write your own dictionary.

Let me know if you ever get a publisher.

You don't handle disagreement well. You might want to work on that. Or, as another option, you can continue to lecture agnostics on their own position and become upset with some of them disagree with you.