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POLITICS: Missile Shield: Canada PM Says No

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posted on Dec, 16 2004 @ 03:20 PM
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"Missile defense won't protect against guys like Bin Laden though.
I doubt they'll use anything like missiles."

Better hope they do not take over Pakistan or Iran. One of Al Qaeda's goals is to take over or influence a country that has nukes. Wishfull thinking has gotten alot of people killed.




posted on Dec, 16 2004 @ 03:25 PM
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Originally posted by cryptorsa1001
"Missile defense won't protect against guys like Bin Laden though.
I doubt they'll use anything like missiles."

Better hope they do not take over Pakistan or Iran. One of Al Qaeda's goals is to take over or influence a country that has nukes. Wishfull thinking has gotten alot of people killed.


So basically you're saying we should waste billions on a system that may or may not work. Missile Defense tests have left alot to be desired doncha know. The weaponisation of space WILL start a new arms race, and when such a missile defense system is up and running, you know all it will take to defeat it? Decoys. Lots of Decoys. Can't shoot em all down. Missile Defence Technology as it now stands is worse then a Firefly. It's a complete Lemon.



posted on Dec, 16 2004 @ 03:59 PM
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They said the patriot missile defense system would never work too. It isn't perfect but it is better than nothing and you have to start somewere. How much is it worth to have a nuke go off in your back yard when you could of at least tried to prevent it. I'm not saying anyone is for sure going to get nuked but I will feel better when some sort of missile defense is in place. Just my opinion, not trying to start a war especially with my Canadian friends.

I saw a show I think was on the discovery channel about laser technology being used to knock down missiles. The laser was installed on a plane that also had an infared sensor that detects outbound missiles. They ran an exersise in which they sent up a missile along with decoys and the systems software was able to accurately pick out the actual war. amongst the decoys and take it out.



posted on Dec, 16 2004 @ 04:06 PM
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Originally posted by cryptorsa1001
and the systems software was able to accurately pick out the actual war. amongst the decoys and take it out.


... which means another turn in the spiraling arms race. Now the manufacturers of weapons worldwide are hard at work designing decoys that are indistinguishable from real things, and producing tons of them rendering the defense useless. That would also prompt the Russian and the Chinese to come up with something real creative. Like dedicating one of the multiple war.s to seek out and destoy the laser-eqiupped planes.

It doesn't do anybody any good.



posted on Dec, 16 2004 @ 04:25 PM
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Why do people want to start another arms race?
It isn't logical. Because history teaches that whenever a power gets an advantage, it takes only a few years for the other guys to come up with a defense. This is why it will never achieve its true purpose. Both Iran and Pakistan has the capability to cheaply defeat any type of missile defense. How? Just launch 100 dummy missiles for every real missile. As for lasers, just coat the missile with a layer of Starlight, with Aerogel insulators and maybe laser reflective shape and material. Sure this stuff is expensive now, but by the time the US deploys this insane and dangerous idea, those substances will be cheaper and more widely available. Face it, if you develope a defence China and Russia will counter it, and in turn sell it to anyone they feel like. Sure the technology of war will start to speed up again, but it will only happen at the expense of well everyone not involved in the military-industrial complex.



posted on Dec, 16 2004 @ 04:34 PM
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True, it is a never ending cycle. As soon as mankind made his first weapon he has been trying to make it better than his enemies. This will never stop as man has and most always will be violent. That is how and why we made it to the top of the food chain. The men that fail to keep upgrading their weapons have been killed and conqured.



posted on Dec, 16 2004 @ 04:55 PM
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cryptor:

Since the Islamic terrorists are making war on a way of life they are ultimately at war with any country that values that way of life.


No, they're not at war with a "way of life". They're at war with the United States of America and its' 40 years of disastrous foreign policy. So Canada has nothing to worry about.

And besides, WHO actually believes this crap will work. A missile defense shield? Ahahaha! Maybe in science fiction movies, but not in the real world. Just look at the last test a few days ago.

In controlled circumstances, under optimal conditions, the anti-missile missile screwed up. We'll take our chances, thanks.


The Arab Islamic terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001 were on the social system that Canadians enjoy and prosper from - a system based on individual freedom with justice. (There is ample evidence that the Arab Islamic terrorist leaders hate freedom and the prosperity it fosters. "At root, the war is about love of life versus hatred of life.".


Who said that? The war is about love of life versus hatred of life?!?! Not even a fifth grader would swallow that load of garbage. Musta been on CNN. It seems simplistic enough to have come directly from Bush.

If Al Qaeda hates "life" then why aren' they attacking Norway? Belgium? The Netherlands? The Netherlands is the freest, most liberal country around, so why aren't they erecting a missile defense shield.

Place all your faith in technology to defend you and you will lose.


That is how and why we made it to the top of the food chain. The men that fail to keep upgrading their weapons have been killed and conqured.


Very American of you. Arm yourself with compassion, education, love and an open mind, it'll help you more than a .44 magnum.



posted on Dec, 16 2004 @ 04:59 PM
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You have voted Jakomo for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month.





posted on Dec, 16 2004 @ 06:28 PM
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The missile shield is not about protecting the US from al-Qaida nor your run of the mill terrorist group.

It is about stopping nations with small nuclear arsenals such as North Korea, Iran (soon) or for that matter other states such as Pakistan that are somewhat politically unstable from having the sure and unfettered ability to attack with a limited number of missiles.

In fact if an accidental launch or a mutinous launch was was made the US would have a counter to it that if effective would indeed prevent the need or severely reduce the want of a retaliatory strike, possibly preventing an uneccessary nuclear conflagration.

I really do not get objections to this program, its not star wars where it was expected to guard against all forms of attacks, this is for small or limited strikes and gives the US the ability to use its judgement in what form retaliation will take rather than the other option which is to retaliate in kind.



posted on Dec, 16 2004 @ 06:29 PM
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Jakomo, it seems that you have anger towards Americans.

“No, they're not at war with a "way of life". They're at war with the United States of America and its' 40 years of disastrous foreign policy. So Canada has nothing to worry about.”

Lets see, Canada has troops in Afghanistan that have actively sought out and killed Al Qaeda members. Seems that you guys aren’t exactly sending them flowers and kisses. I guess since you are from Canada that Al Qaeda will forgive and forget.

“And besides, WHO actually believes this crap will work. A missile defense shield? Ahahaha! Maybe in science fiction movies, but not in the real world. Just look at the last test a few days ago.”

You have little faith in what mankind can do. I bet people said at one time that man would never walk on the moon. The missile defense system has been under work for many years now. Do you always believe what you see on TV? Look at what the patriot missile batteries can do as an example of missile interception.

“Place all your faith in technology to defend you and you will lose.’

Who said we are placing all of our faith in technology?

“Very American of you. Arm yourself with compassion, education, love and an open mind, it'll help you more than a .44 magnum.”

Philosophy will not help to protect you. Al Qaeda is after power. They want their own nation with nuclear weapons. They will do anything and kill anyone to get what they want. You better wake up and confront reality. Shall I send a white flag that you can wave at Al Qaeda when they come knocking on your door, eh!!!!



posted on Dec, 16 2004 @ 06:59 PM
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If ever a ballistic missile is launched at the conteniental US or Alaska, I'll bet you a full dollar (US that is) that Canada will want it on thier land!

And just another small bit, I'd bet others would want a similiar shield: Japan, S Korea, Australia..... The footwork has to be done first, hence while TESTING there was a fail criteria. OK- the anti-missile missile failed before take off... lesson learned and .s are probably still rolling today. (you know how stuff runs downhill).

Canada didn't say no to accepting a Tactical Data Link-11 (and maybe 16) from the US to put on thier ships (which need work may I say). And they just may not have the money to buy it- thier health care system is 'not good'.

I'm not promoting a war with missiles but darn it, if you throw a rock at me, I'm gonna pick something up and try to block it- look at Isreali forces. And although this anti-missile system has had some failures, I'll bet the men and women working on it have learned alot about what it's going to take to make it work- it's thier livelihood.

Besides: where would they nuke Canada : Toronto and ??? So since Toronto is relatively close to major US cities (as a missile would fly), it's protected.

And what do I know of Canadians and Canada: born nearby Toronto and many relatives still there. This isn't bashing Canadians, just saying wait and see if our northern brethren don't come a calling when the time arises.



posted on Dec, 16 2004 @ 07:25 PM
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Now, who the hell would launch a missile to begin with, knowing the consequences?

There's only four countries so cracked out of their skull to even consider it- India, Pakistan, DRPK, and the US. Don't give me crap about AQ getting their hands on a multibillion dollar launch facility, because it will never happen. Anyways, the missile defence shield will not work 100% of the time.

Now, of the four countries listed above, who has a reason to nuke Canada?

None. Even the US isn't crazy enough to nuke us. So all the fearmongering in the world won't change our minds. As for Crypt's claims of 'social and economic ties', mulroney suckered us into NAFTA. Really, as we speak, there are people trying to extricate us from that mess.

DE



posted on Dec, 16 2004 @ 07:43 PM
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Originally posted by DeusEx


There's only four countries so cracked out of their skull to even consider it- India, Pakistan, DRPK, and the US.
Now, of the four countries listed above, who has a reason to nuke Canada?

DE


How can you ever insinuate that the US is "Cracked out of their skull" and will nuke Canada - what are you smoking? I want some!



posted on Dec, 16 2004 @ 07:45 PM
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While I, like many other Canadians, don't agree with this missle defence thingy, I do think it is inevitible that our government will be involved in this project with the US. It makes very good PR for Martin to make these statements, but nowhere did he say that we are no longer holding negotiations about this with the US. By having Bush bring it up while he was here, after being told that this was an extremely sensitive issue in Canadian politics, indicates to me that this is a project that is going a., whether we like it or not. And if this is the case, our government would have to be involved, because that is the only way we will have any influence over what happens. The Conservatives are big supporters of this program, and they are the only ones with enough seats to form a coalition to stop the Liberals from signing on to this, so even our minority gov situation can't protect us.

Our only hope is to drag out negotiations for another 4 years, and hope for the best...



posted on Dec, 16 2004 @ 07:50 PM
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Originally posted by Phoenix

Originally posted by DeusEx
There's only four countries so cracked out of their skull to even consider it- India, Pakistan, DRPK, and the US.
Now, of the four countries listed above, who has a reason to nuke Canada?

DE


How can you ever insinuate that the US is "Cracked out of their skull" and will nuke Canada - what are you smoking? I want some!


Fifty years of not only horrible foreign policy, but the wholehearted support of the administrations commiting great atrocities. You have to be cracked out to ignore the lessons and events of the past.

DE

EDIT- Support of statements.

en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...

The United States originally hoped that Saddam would be overthrown in an internal coup,and used CIA assets in Iraq to organize a revolt. When a popular rebellion against Saddam began in southern Iraq, the United States did not support it due to the fact that the coalition refused to aid in an invasion (and also due to various policy changes within the United States). As a result, not only was the rebellion brutally subdued, but the main CIA operative who was tasked with organizing the revolt was disavowed and accused of "disobeying orders to not organize a revolt".

"American troops led by Barry McCaffrey engaged in a systematic massacre of retreating Iraqi troops, in addition to some civilians. McCaffrey has denied the charges and an army investigation has cleared him. (Forbes, Daniel)"

- en.wikipedia.org...


en.wikipedia.org...

[edit on 16-12-2004 by DeusEx]



posted on Dec, 16 2004 @ 08:32 PM
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ya know...i am from canada...i am from the west coast...which is far more conservative than the rest of canada...not as much as alberta but i sure wish...damn bc...this is just another example of our country not exactly knowing what to do..and when i say this...doing what it safe and smart for relations...we as canadians really know how to get america going and i think we need to be more smart in turn...

if its not marijuana..or gay marriage...[oh god] and even our national security...we are really good at being difficult....WAY TO BE CANADA



posted on Dec, 16 2004 @ 08:41 PM
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Originally posted by DirtyYerocmai
doing what it safe and smart for relations...we as canadians really know how to get america going and i think we need to be more smart in turn...
if its not marijuana..or gay marriage...[oh god] and even our national security...we are really good at being difficult....WAY TO BE CANADA


You don't like it, move to the states. The majority of Canadians abide by, and even agree with those decisions. If you can't cope with that, then - as the Americans say- pack up and leave. Canada is Canada, and we don't want to be more like the States.

DE



posted on Dec, 16 2004 @ 08:54 PM
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Sauron says:


there are nuclear bombs already in the country they call them static nukes put there by your favorite cold war enemies.


What? Who knows about these things? Who c named them "static nukes". If these things exist and our gov't knows about them, why are they not being neutralized?



posted on Dec, 16 2004 @ 10:10 PM
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Originally posted by valkeryie
Canada is respected around the world. There is no threat to Canada. Only the USA is a target in the entire Hemisphere.


No. I can come up with several nuclear targets in Canada just off the top of my .:

First strike targets: North Bay, Ontario "the hole" NORAD facility and several other military installations.

Second strike: Ottawa, "The Golden Horseshoe", Montreal, Quebec City, Vancouver, the St. Lawrence Seaway, Halifax's because of it's port, power plants across the nation.

Tertiary targets: Winnipeg, Edmonton....smaller cities.

Canada doesn't face a threat from "rogue" states like North Korea and I don't really think the US does either. However their involvement with NATO - especially as an active member of the "Nuclear Planning Group", the commitment to NORAD and the fact that the US and Canada are intertwined in nearly all aspects of life puts Canada very high on the list of nuclear targets in a Sino/Russian and NATO exchange. Canada is not a neutral nation, the Canadian government at least passively condones most of the American governments "tyrannical" actions and at most promotes it (a pro-Israel stance is a big no-no to most of the world). The one glaring exception being the Iraq war.

Being "well respected" is great if you're on vacation in Europe - but the stance the Canadian government has taken on many issues has left the governments of many other nations with a bad taste in their mouths. All involvement in peacekeeping and similar projects would be quickly forgotten by governments, especially non-European nations. The high strategic importance of Canada would also weigh heavily in that decision. Unfortunately it's not the general populace that makes the decision to go to war.

Oh ya, this was about the missile shield. I'd be all for it if it worked, but I don't think it will.



posted on Dec, 16 2004 @ 10:43 PM
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The basic fact is if Al Queda attacks Canada they would be shooting themselves in the foot. I thought Canada was a terrorist "haven"...
why would they attack a nation that is apparently so easy to get into and thus into the states to attack you guys. BTW If they do attack Canada it would be a very bad mistake. Canada may not have a large military or even the best technology available, but pissing us off isn't such a good idea. I'm sure Bin Laden knows about our military history. On the vangaud of alot of major assaults in history, we have proven ourselves time and time again, I think it has to do with the weather. We would make an enemy even more tenacious and viscous then the americans. I know alot of people are gonna laugh at this, but those that are laughing has never met or served with any of our military forces before.

We only respond when we are attacked directly or one of our allies are attacked. On 9/11 Canada first and foremost answered the call for help and we gladly assisted in anyway we could. We helped in Afganistan because we thought the war was just, it's just when Missile Defence comes into play, we get worried about our terrotorial soverenty. I'm sure alot of people can understand that. I personally would rather be a Dead Canadian then be a live Psuedo-American paying lipservice to whoever the US pres at the time is. But that is another thread altogether.




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