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The Myth of the Good Guy With a Gun

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posted on Feb, 12 2015 @ 09:14 AM
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originally posted by: budski
Can someone tell me why they feel the need to be armed?

This isn't about a NEED for guns, it's about WANTING guns, and that opens up a whole new aspect, especially psychologically.


I'll try, even though I'm not "armed".

I think for most it's about being punished for the actions of others. Responsible gun owner that have never committed a crime or harmed anyone don't want to be punished for the actions of those that do. Also to them guns aren't this rampant source of violence that some make them out to be. To them they are tools(farmers, hunters) or a hobby(target shooting, competitive shooting) or even a collectible(old firearms, curio's or rare pieces of historic significance).

To them, it's just an object. An object that is no more dangerous than the family car. They don't want to have their rights taken away because someone else isn't responsible.




posted on Feb, 12 2015 @ 09:14 AM
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originally posted by: eriktheawful
a reply to: budski

Because you've already wasted your time.

As pointed out: this very tired, beaten dead horse argument about gun ownership has been presented here on ATS over and over and over and over and freaking OVER again here.

The results is always the same: We see a group who desire to control people on what they can or can not own, and another group who do not desire to have others tell them that.

We see people posting here trying so very hard to convince others that guns are BAD. BAD gun! BAD!

When it truth it has been shown here on ATS over and over and OVER again that: it's PEOPLE that are bad. Not the guns.

It's been shown over and over again that people in other countries outside of the US have a very strong opinion that US citizens should not have guns and that people in the US think that it's okay to have guns (legally).

It's a dead horse discussion on these boards. Everyone in this thread will go round and round. EVeryone has already made up their minds.

Personally I'm offended that people in the UK drink their beer warm. I think it should be cold! I think we should poke our noses in that and start making threads to pester the citizens of the UK that they need to stop drinking their beer warm darn it!

I'm sure I can find some statistics somewhere that will show why it's bad to drink warm beer......never mind that I don't live there. I'm going to really raise some cain about this!

You see? It's a very tired argument here on ATS.

Americans own guns, like guns, use guns, and unless someone tears up the US constitution, will continue to have guns.

I see WAY too many threads on here about how Americans keep sticking our noses where it does not belong.....

And yet here we go again: people from other countries insisting how we should do things here in the US.

The irony is killing me!


And there you go again.

The title of the thread, in case you missed it in your rush to defend your "right" is "The Myth Of The Good Guy With A Gun".
Now, the article, which you won't read because it challenges your preconceptions is very clear and has a LOT of supporting evidence, none of which you have been able to refute, instead throwing out the usual anecdotal bullplop and strawman arguments to try and deflect away from the actual point of the OP.

I expect it from members, but frankly, a mod should know better than to use this silly tactics to support their position.

Debate is about points and counter points.
I have stated quite clearly that the article contains all the data you need, and yet you refuse to debate said evidence.



posted on Feb, 12 2015 @ 09:15 AM
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originally posted by: budski
Can someone tell me why they feel the need to be armed?

This isn't about a NEED for guns, it's about WANTING guns, and that opens up a whole new aspect, especially psychologically.


Because it is NOT against the law, other than that it is really none of your business.



posted on Feb, 12 2015 @ 09:15 AM
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originally posted by: budski

originally posted by: nullafides

originally posted by: budski

originally posted by: butcherguy

originally posted by: budski

originally posted by: butcherguy



Put quite simply, the evidence overwhelmingly shows that more guns = more deaths from guns,

And?
People die from all sorts of things.

Should we ban guns?

Would it solve anything?

Heroin is illegal. You can buy it just about anywhere.


Yes, guns should be banned.
They are nothing more than a device that was invented to kill other humans.

To my knowledge, there is no other "product" on the market, and so freely available that was invented for the sole purpose of killing another human.

Are you missing the point?
No doctor in the US can prescribe heroin, it is totally illegal. Yet it is readily available on the black market. The raw material isn't grown here. Yet it is easily bought, no age restrictions, no tests, no getting a permit.
Guns can be made in a garage or basement.
If you ban them, who enforces the law?
Police.... with GUNS.
Hypocrite.


No, Police in this country are not usually armed.

I'm not missing any point, I'm seeing you back up my assertion that the only evidence gun advocates have is anecdotal, and when that fails they resort to ad hominem attack rather than stick to the topic at hand.

Look at the data in the article (have you even read it? ) then come back and discuss it like a rational human being.



I did not read your piece. My immediate thought was that it would show "statistical evidence" that would "prove" guns in and of themselves kill.



  1. Inanimate objects do not kill, they are a tool which people can choose to use or not to use
  2. statistics (and any other report, for that matter) can be skewed to support an agenda
  3. Heroin legality and use is very much akin to the idea of banning gun posession, IMHO...



What an inane argument, coming completely from a position of ignorance.

Get back to me when you've read the article and have proper rebuttals rather than this nonsense.




Inane? So, you'd rather look to insult than actually ask any further questions you may have based off of my response?


I'll imagine you're truly one heck of a conversationalist.... Good luck with that. It'll get you far in life.

Oh, and go sc#$% yourself and your "position of ignorance". If your intent was to instill insult, you did. And quite frankly, even if you were more interesting than a tack in the wall to talk to, I still wouldn't involve myself in a conversation with you.



posted on Feb, 12 2015 @ 09:16 AM
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a reply to: Freeborn

Indeed... maybe, maybe when you wake up at 6am after a party or heavy night and your can is still in front of you, you can't be arsed to go to the kitchen or get a fresh drink.. so you swig from your warm can (which you then realise someone used as an ashtray)

Maybe then and only then.



posted on Feb, 12 2015 @ 09:17 AM
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originally posted by: budski

originally posted by: Punisher75

originally posted by: budski

Of course the usual bullplop is about defending themself from a "Tyrannical" government, but the US has had various forms of tyranny for many years, and no one said jack.



Yea they call that responsible gun ownership.
You know, not shooting someone for every slight or wrong done to you?
You should be happy about that I would think.


Is it responsible ownership or simple hypocrisy?
More guns = more gun deaths.
It's really rather simple.


I am guessing you did not read through all the links of your own source. They clearly show homicide rates from gun violence have fallen, even with the ownership rates increasing. They have been at an almost all-time low since 2008. Here, I will link directly to the report that was linked in the OP source.

Report

Here is the figure in case you choose not to scroll all the way through to look.



As usual, these stories like to skew things to their benefit....anyone can take figures and say anything...they are assuming most won't read the links. In this case the links from the source do not support the article, but I am guessing you are like most and did not read them....just the story...and buy into it hook, line and sinker.



posted on Feb, 12 2015 @ 09:18 AM
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a reply to: budski




No, Police in this country are not usually armed.

See that??? USUALLY.

Just who do they send to collect an illegal GUN? The UNARMED cops????

Oh, you make me laugh!
Again, hypocrites!



posted on Feb, 12 2015 @ 09:18 AM
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a reply to: blupblup

I didn't say one culture was right or wrong.

And for as safe as england is without guns, I'll be damned if a person I was drinking with in a pub (in the north of england) on new years didn't end up the following morning with a head crushed in.

With a cinderblock.


Guns are simply the most immediate option for taking your anger or ulterior motives out on someone else. If a lack of one presents itself, the next best thing like a cinderblock is used.


So, feel safe.



posted on Feb, 12 2015 @ 09:19 AM
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originally posted by: MisterSpock

originally posted by: budski
Can someone tell me why they feel the need to be armed?

This isn't about a NEED for guns, it's about WANTING guns, and that opens up a whole new aspect, especially psychologically.


I'll try, even though I'm not "armed".

I think for most it's about being punished for the actions of others. Responsible gun owner that have never committed a crime or harmed anyone don't want to be punished for the actions of those that do. Also to them guns aren't this rampant source of violence that some make them out to be. To them they are tools(farmers, hunters) or a hobby(target shooting, competitive shooting) or even a collectible(old firearms, curio's or rare pieces of historic significance).

To them, it's just an object. An object that is no more dangerous than the family car. They don't want to have their rights taken away because someone else isn't responsible.



Users of recreational drugs who are non violent are punished for the actions of others.

The simple fact is that if, as a country, you allow huge amounts of deadly weapons to be owned, some of them will fall into the wrong hands.
There are now more guns in the US than people.
I'd have thought a responsible person would see this as a problem, especially given the correlations in the article.



posted on Feb, 12 2015 @ 09:20 AM
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originally posted by: budski
Can someone tell me why they feel the need to be armed?

This isn't about a NEED for guns, it's about WANTING guns, and that opens up a whole new aspect, especially psychologically.


Uh... We NEED guns for the very reason I had mentioned before.
However in your world that's not valid unless there is blood in the streets for every slight performed by the Federal Government, so of course in your mind we don't need them we just want them.



posted on Feb, 12 2015 @ 09:22 AM
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originally posted by: budski
Can someone tell me why they feel the need to be armed?

This isn't about a NEED for guns, it's about WANTING guns, and that opens up a whole new aspect, especially psychologically.



A myriad of reasons people want rather than need...

But I'll go with the most righteous reason...

People want to defend their families & themselves...


The reason, despite the belief in the notion, that people need Guns is because that would suggest there is something inherently wrong with society... Is a fallacy!

There isn't...


There are bad apples, I want to defend myself from them....

As opposed to...

Everyone around me is a danger, I need to defend myself from them...




Quite simple when you actually think about it logistically.
edit on 12-2-2015 by CharlieSpeirs because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 12 2015 @ 09:23 AM
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originally posted by: budski

originally posted by: MisterSpock

originally posted by: budski
Can someone tell me why they feel the need to be armed?

This isn't about a NEED for guns, it's about WANTING guns, and that opens up a whole new aspect, especially psychologically.


I'll try, even though I'm not "armed".

I think for most it's about being punished for the actions of others. Responsible gun owner that have never committed a crime or harmed anyone don't want to be punished for the actions of those that do. Also to them guns aren't this rampant source of violence that some make them out to be. To them they are tools(farmers, hunters) or a hobby(target shooting, competitive shooting) or even a collectible(old firearms, curio's or rare pieces of historic significance).

To them, it's just an object. An object that is no more dangerous than the family car. They don't want to have their rights taken away because someone else isn't responsible.



Users of recreational drugs who are non violent are punished for the actions of others.

The simple fact is that if, as a country, you allow huge amounts of deadly weapons to be owned, some of them will fall into the wrong hands.
There are now more guns in the US than people.
I'd have thought a responsible person would see this as a problem, especially given the correlations in the article.
Can you outline some measure that would allow the US to disarm it's citizens without bloodshed?



posted on Feb, 12 2015 @ 09:24 AM
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a reply to: nullafides

You could always get properly trained, then I'm guessing that your "stupid sh&t" issues would absolve themselves.


But I'm sure you know that, just wanted to throw it out there that proper training for self-defense purposes should always be the chosen option rather than just walking away from the tool because you're concerned about the safety of it. The tool generally isn't the problem--but at least you're responsible about your decision, but I would recommned training over fear of ownership every day of the week, and maybe twice on Sundays.



posted on Feb, 12 2015 @ 09:24 AM
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a reply to: budski

Well Done.

Not only do you mention the Dunning - Kruger effect but the resulting replies demonstrate it's commonality in many areas.






The core of the effect, however, seems to be what Dunning describes – ignorance carries with it the inability to accurately assess one’s own ignorance. Dunning also points out something that rings true to this veteran skeptic:

An ignorant mind is precisely not a spotless, empty vessel, but one that’s filled with the clutter of irrelevant or misleading life experiences, theories, facts, intuitions, strategies, algorithms, heuristics, metaphors, and hunches that regrettably have the look and feel of useful and accurate knowledge.

This accurately describes the people I confront daily with unscientific or unsupported beliefs. Just read the comments on the SGU’s Facebook page and you will quickly be subject to the full force of Dunning-Kruger.


Graph and text from: theness.com...

Thanx for the heavy lifting....




posted on Feb, 12 2015 @ 09:25 AM
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a reply to: budski

Recreational drugs are illegal, so I don't see the relevance there.

We should be looking to stop the "wrong hands", they'll get guns no matter what. Even if the general legal gun owning populace didn't exist. I believe this exact scenario, no legal gun ownership with a high rate of criminal gun ownership, is present in several countries.



posted on Feb, 12 2015 @ 09:25 AM
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originally posted by: Vasa Croe

originally posted by: budski

originally posted by: Punisher75

originally posted by: budski

Of course the usual bullplop is about defending themself from a "Tyrannical" government, but the US has had various forms of tyranny for many years, and no one said jack.



Yea they call that responsible gun ownership.
You know, not shooting someone for every slight or wrong done to you?
You should be happy about that I would think.


Is it responsible ownership or simple hypocrisy?
More guns = more gun deaths.
It's really rather simple.


I am guessing you did not read through all the links of your own source. They clearly show homicide rates from gun violence have fallen, even with the ownership rates increasing. They have been at an almost all-time low since 2008. Here, I will link directly to the report that was linked in the OP source.

Report

Here is the figure in case you choose not to scroll all the way through to look.



As usual, these stories like to skew things to their benefit....anyone can take figures and say anything...they are assuming most won't read the links. In this case the links from the source do not support the article, but I am guessing you are like most and did not read them....just the story...and buy into it hook, line and sinker.


Yet you fail to mention this:

Homicides by a friend/acquaintance or a stranger were more likely to involve a gun than those committed by an intimate or family member

and many other correlations.

You seem to think that because the homicide rate peaks and troughs (and this is due to many other factors as well) it means guns are "safe" when repeated studies (conveniently ignored) show this is simply not the case.



posted on Feb, 12 2015 @ 09:26 AM
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originally posted by: budski
Can someone tell me why they feel the need to be armed?

This isn't about a NEED for guns, it's about WANTING guns, and that opens up a whole new aspect, especially psychologically.


Sure....I can tell you exactly why. My family has had a violent stalker for years now that continues to be let out of prison because of overcrowding. He has been diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia and does not take his meds once he gets out. He has been released 6 times now, each time after about 6 months in. He waits about 3 months each time then begins the cycle all over again. He has been charged with aggravated stalking and terroristic threats. He has shown up at palces we go to eat, our houses, and work places.

I carry daily, yet have not felt the need to use deadly force against him as each time I have been able to resort to other means in the circumstances. I have a family of 5 and he has threatened each of them, as well as my parents and in-laws. He threatens death.

I carry because each time he ups the ante.....it always escalates every time he is released. I don't want to not be prepared for the one day he decides to try to make good on his threats.

I have followed every single rule by the legal handbook with around 23 police reports, two TPO's and spent about 2 weeks worth of time in courts to go about it the right way.

I am a responsible gun owner who has a definitive threat to my family and I choose to be able to defend myself against threats such as the one I have. Sometimes police are not just waiting at my house/work/eatery for him to show up, and dialing a number prior to getting my family safe would likely result in my family not being safe.

I choose to carry a gun......I live in the US.

You live in the UK...you couldn't choose to even if you want.

You stay there and keep your ideas to yourself, and I will keep my ideas of a government controlled society in the UK to me.



posted on Feb, 12 2015 @ 09:26 AM
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a reply to: Vasa Croe


They have been at an almost all-time low since 2008.


Thanks to Obama I'm guessing



posted on Feb, 12 2015 @ 09:27 AM
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a reply to: budski

1) We are members first, staff second. (the "Hey, your a mod so blah blah blah!" is one of the reasons why when we become staff, we stop posting things so much, because of the preconceived ideas that members have about moderators here on ATS).

2) Stop insulting and talking down to others. In every post you have replied to me, you've added a dig of some sort.

3) Notice that I've not done that to you.

4) You used an article to make statement More Guns = More Gun Deaths, which I find to be untrue. You are depending upon the statistics posted by someone (who may or may not have used those numbers to push a biased agenda). I on the other hand am speaking from personal experience: no, more guns does not equate to more gun deaths. Instead: more people = more of just about anything you can use.

I keep seeing comparisons of the UK with the US. That got to be really inane. We have a LOT more people, a LOT more room, and LOT more cities, and that means just about everything with equal a LOT more of something.

I bet we had a lot more bank robberies. I bet we have a lot more deaths here from car accidents. I bet we have just about a lot more of everything that many places simply because of the size of our country and population.



posted on Feb, 12 2015 @ 09:27 AM
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originally posted by: budski

originally posted by: stosh64

originally posted by: budski

originally posted by: nullafides
a reply to: budski

Out of curiosity, do you own a gun? Have you? Have you ever discharged a gun?


The people I know with either or both a concealed carry permit or the appropriate permit to open carry are very level headed.

To a one, they have all said that they are held under such a high standard due to this, that they MUST think about their actions more so than when they did not own a gun. The reason being? Because owning a gun opens them to greater legal culpability.

For full disclosure, I do NOT own a gun. I make the conscious choice as an adult not to do so. I do this because I *KNOW* I've been proven time and time again to do stupid sh&t with hand knives which involve stitches on my own person. Given that, I chose not to own a gun for the time being.


I don't own a gun, and wouldn't even if it was legal here.

I am, however, well trained in the use of firearms.


So why worry about gun owners in America?

Your safe with no guns where you are.
Just MYOB.


So what you're saying is that because I don't live there I'm not allowed to have an opinion about guns.

Fairly typical argument that is in truth pretty childish.


You can have any opinion you want. That doesn't make it relevant or right.

But I see you enjoy your illusion of intellectual superiority typical from your side of the argument.

Key word in that last sentence was 'illusion'.

Put your superior intellect into something in YOUR country that makes a difference.



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