According to Paul, Jesus was a sinner

a reply to: NOTurTypical

What if I told you I have never sinned. Would you believe me? If not, why?

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: NOTurTypical

What if I told you I have never sinned. Would you believe me? If not, why?

Well, I would ask you some questions then, to see if either you truly are sinless, or if you have a false understanding of what God considers sin to be.

1. Have you ever lied?
2. Have you ever stolen?
3. Have you ever disrespected your parents?

et certa et cetra. I wouldn't ask have you ever murdered, most likely not in this day and age with forensics, ballistics, and DNA.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

Too bad you can't ask Jesus those questions. I mean we ARE missing 30+ years of his life and he DID participate in a ritual that supposedly washes away sins, but other people say he's sinless so let's believe it, right?

a reply to: NOTurTypical

OR the Biblical account is a lie, which is the more likely situation.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

The difference between a Saint and a sinner is grace.

originally posted by: NOTurTypical

originally posted by: Akragon

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: Akragon

Correct, "original sin" is Roman Catholic dogma.

heh... I wish that were true...

Original sin is not just a roman catholic thing... the Protestant orthodox reformed church believes in it as well...

They are daughters of the RCC, so same applies. "Original sin" came from the RCC.

I'm non-denominational.

lol no they have nothing to do with the RCC...

In fact they despise the roman Catholic church... Original sin came from Paul...

The RCC accepted his doctrine, and so did quite a few sects of protestant Christianity after the reformation

it doesn't matter if you non-denominational... the fact remains... original sin infests many sects of Christianity

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: chr0naut

I don't think watching porn is lustful at all, committing a sin based on that lust would be tracking a certain porn star down and stalking her or something. I don't do that nor would I ever do it.

Like I said, if Jesus was identical to me in every respect then he looked at women and thought them to be attractive, he even masturbated to them. Masturbation is not a sin, if so Jesus probably sinned all the time, IF he didn't have a wife that is.

If Jesus was identical to me in every respect, he had moments of "lust" just like we all do. Did he act on that feeling? No, and neither do I.

If Jesus is identical to me in every respect.... he is identical to me in EVERY respect, lust included. Lust is not a conscious choice, rape is.

If Jesus is identical to me in every respect then I have the same capabilities as he does, because we are identical in every respect.

See where I'm going with this? I know the topic has been moved to lust and all that good stuff, but that is not the topic here, the topic is that Jesus is said to be identical to us IN EVERY RESPECT. That's the topic of the thread, not whether lust is a sin or not. If Jesus is identical to us in every respect, we have the same exact capabilities that he did, choosing not to sin included. Or maybe it means even Jesus couldn't avoid sin? After all, if we can't then neither could he because.........

You just said that watching porn is not lustful?

To clarify, here is a dictionary definition of 'Lust'

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: NOTurTypical

Too bad you can't ask Jesus those questions. I mean we ARE missing 30+ years of his life and he DID participate in a ritual that supposedly washes away sins, but other people say he's sinless so let's believe it, right?

The ritual that I believe you are speaking of, baptism, does not wash away sins.

It is an outward sign that you are repentant. The meaning of repentance is that you are sorry for past sins (and implies that you will try not to re-offend).

Here is a dictionary definition of 'repentance'

Here is a random link found in Google that describes the purpose of baptism.

a reply to: chr0naut

So Jesus was repenting of past sins then? If you repent, your sins are forgiven, no? So how is what you say any different from what I say?

As for your previous post, masturbating is a way for you to release that "intense" sexual desire. Masturbating is better than raping don't you think? Masturbating relieves you of lust, if you have no release then the lust will grow stronger, so no, watching porn is not lust, it is a release off that lust.

And again, this topic isn't about whether lust is a sin, it's about Jesus being made identical to us in every respect. If he is identical to us, he had his moments of lust just like every one of us.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: chr0naut

So Jesus was repenting of past sins then? If you repent, your sins are forgiven, no? So how is what you say any different from what I say?

As for your previous post, masturbating is a way for you to release that "intense" sexual desire. Masturbating is better than raping don't you think? Masturbating relieves you of lust, if you have no release then the lust will grow stronger, so no, watching porn is not lust, it is a release off that lust.

The baptism ceremony is symbolic of death and resurrection. In Jesus case, it was alluding, prophetically, to his death and resurrection. It was also an example to His followers, for what they should do. Baptism is not a magic ceremony that causes things to happen. It is an expression to the general public of' inner' stuff.

Repentance does not forgive sin. Just like when a thief suffers legal consequences, even if they say they are very sorry in court, they are still guilty.

Reasoning things out, one may still forgive someone who is unrepentant. Christ died for us while we were sinners. Gods forgiveness was offered to us before we were repentant.

Repentance, then, is a lifestyle choice of those who follow Christ and baptism is a sign to the community of that commitment.

As for masturbation and sexual release, you seem to be saying that it is unavoidable and there will be dire consequences if this 'hunger' is not satisfied. That is not the case.

Many people choose to abstain from sexual release. Not just Christians but Buddhists, Stoics and more. Still others never have sexual release due to medical conditions. If you don't masturbate, then you are not driven to rape. Inversely, many rapists also masturbate, so it isn't any sort of cure, either.

Temptation does not equal sin.

Getting back to the thread topic, if Jesus had sinned, then it would invalidate his ministry and death. God became flesh for a purpose, not as a waste of time, ink and man-hours and a source for debate.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: NOTurTypical

Too bad you can't ask Jesus those questions. I mean we ARE missing 30+ years of his life and he DID participate in a ritual that supposedly washes away sins, but other people say he's sinless so let's believe it, right?

Well, his own brothers and mother worshiped Him as the risen Lord.

a reply to: Akragon

lol no they have nothing to do with the RCC... In fact they despise the roman Catholic church... Original sin came from Paul...

The Reformation churches addressed faith by grace and not works, they didn't go far enough and question a great number of RCC doctrines. So most all the daughter churches still carry over a ton of doctrine from the RCC.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: NOTurTypical

OR the Biblical account is a lie, which is the more likely situation.

That's your conjecture, and you are free to have it if you want to.

a reply to: chr0naut

The definition you give here is different from the ones in the link you provided. The link defines it as both an initiation rite and a profession of faith. It seems baptism can mean many different things to different people, which is how they want it.

And as far as baptism and repentance not being a way to forgiveness, Peter believes otherwise.

Acts 2
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

So yes, according to one of the founders of Christianity, baptism it's a symbol of forgiving sins.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: chr0naut

The definition you give here is different from the ones in the link you provided. The link defines it as both an initiation rite and a profession of faith. It seems baptism can mean many different things to different people, which is how they want it.

And as far as baptism and repentance not being a way to forgiveness, Peter believes otherwise.

Acts 2
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

So yes, according to one of the founders of Christianity, baptism it's a symbol of forgiving sins.

My definition explained the symbolism of baptism, not the motivation of those being baptized. That was why there is a difference.

Applying too narrow a definition to something can lead to erroneous conclusions. For instance if you were to define science as ONLY the application of scientific method, then Evolutionary Biology and Geology are not science in most cases as we cannot perform the required experiments.

I agree that baptism is a symbol for repentance, but not that baptism is ONLY a symbol for repentance.

a reply to: chr0naut

The link you provided says nothing about baptism being symbolic of death and resurrection, so it seems you are moving the goalposts to fit your argument.

Peter agrees with me that baptism is a symbol of repentance and forgiveness of sins, you say it's not. Do you think Peter was wrong?

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: chr0naut

The link you provided says nothing about baptism being symbolic of death and resurrection, so it seems you are moving the goalposts to fit your argument.

Peter agrees with me that baptism is a symbol of repentance and forgiveness of sins, you say it's not. Do you think Peter was wrong?

I agree that baptism is a symbol for repentance, but not that baptism is ONLY a symbol for repentance.

I never said that baptism was not a symbol for repentance.

To sin is to turn away from God's will and go your own way; to repent is to turn back from sin and rededicate yourself to God's way in your life.

The problems arise because the English word "repent" does not convey perfectly the intent of the original language it was translated from. Most people think repent to means simply to beg forgiveness and that's very close but not perfect.

a reply to: chr0naut

Peter tells us to be baptized for repentance and forgiveness of sins. He implies that baptism is a necessary part of forgiveness and repentance, that's what I meant by baptism washing away sins, it symbolizes that process. I'm not sure what we're disagreeing about to be honest, I never said it only symbolized forgiveness of sins either, I was only pointing out what Peter said.

Here are two videos that explain both baptism, what it is and isn't, and the language of repentance and holiness. I'm not going to go into great detail on what he goes through in them. If you want to go them, you will. Suffice it to say, he delves into the original Aramaic and takes the idea of salvation and your relationship with God and the Holy Spirit as an ongoing process. So, yes, the baptism ceremony is symbolic only.