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originally posted by: ScientificRailgun
So because Ukraine, in good faith, gave up it's nuclear arsenal and participated in the START treaty, the western world should just leave them twisting in the wind? That's cold, man.
originally posted by: crazyewok
originally posted by: ScientificRailgun
So are you suggesting we just let Russia roll all over Europe and take what it wants just because it has nuclear weapons?
originally posted by: crazyewok
originally posted by: ScientificRailgun
a reply to: crazyewok
Nobody thought Germany was well equipped enough to do the damage it did in WWII. They had just begun recovering from a horrible depression, much worse than what Russia is going through right now.
You have to see the bigger picture. It's not just Russia, but China, North Korea, and other states sympathetic to Russia that could be united to become a new Axis power that threatens the entire world.
Hitler did not have 10,000 nukes.
If he had he could have kept Europe.
No
Cause Britain and France Also have nuclear weapons.
So Russia wont be rolling over EU NATO lands for the same reason we shouldn't be rolling other Russian land.
That Reason MAD.
The lesson here is Ukraine should not have given up its nukes.
I agree with Ukraine's vulnerability, and if they still had nuclear arms there wouldn't be a single Russian soldier in Eastern Ukraine. But I feel very strange in letting a nation that willingly gave up it's nuclear program go under the heel of a neighboring nuclear armed nation simply because they let their arsenal go.
originally posted by: Answer
originally posted by: ScientificRailgun
So because Ukraine, in good faith, gave up it's nuclear arsenal and participated in the START treaty, the western world should just leave them twisting in the wind? That's cold, man.
originally posted by: crazyewok
originally posted by: ScientificRailgun
So are you suggesting we just let Russia roll all over Europe and take what it wants just because it has nuclear weapons?
originally posted by: crazyewok
originally posted by: ScientificRailgun
a reply to: crazyewok
Nobody thought Germany was well equipped enough to do the damage it did in WWII. They had just begun recovering from a horrible depression, much worse than what Russia is going through right now.
You have to see the bigger picture. It's not just Russia, but China, North Korea, and other states sympathetic to Russia that could be united to become a new Axis power that threatens the entire world.
Hitler did not have 10,000 nukes.
If he had he could have kept Europe.
No
Cause Britain and France Also have nuclear weapons.
So Russia wont be rolling over EU NATO lands for the same reason we shouldn't be rolling other Russian land.
That Reason MAD.
The lesson here is Ukraine should not have given up its nukes.
I don't know if he's actually advocating "letting them twist in the wind" but he's making a very valid point about Ukraine's vulnerability.
originally posted by: ScientificRailgun
The lesson here is Ukraine should not have given up its nukes.So because Ukraine, in good faith, gave up it's nuclear arsenal and participated in the START treaty, the western world should just leave them twisting in the wind? That's cold, man.
One: Withdraw all Russian troops and Armaments from Ukraine, minus Crimea. This would be a compromise on both parts.
originally posted by: crazyewok
So because Ukraine, in good faith, gave up it's nuclear arsenal and participated in the START treaty, the western world should just leave them twisting in the wind? That's cold, man.
originally posted by: ScientificRailgun
The lesson here is Ukraine should not have given up its nukes.
Yes its cold.
No its not fair.
But its a cruel cold unfair world.
As I said if I could click my fingers and send Russia home I would right now.
But right now I see no way we can realistically make that happen.
I can see as making things worse by selling weapons or even worse starting ww3 but it wont help or solve anything.
If you have any ideas on how to solve the situation without triggering world war holy # then im all ears.
One: Withdraw all Russian troops and Armaments from Ukraine, minus Crimea. This would be a compromise on both parts.
Two: With joint NATO and Russian monitors, allow eastern Ukraine to hold a referendum on whether they want to become a semi-autonomous district within Ukraine, much like Crimea before it's annexation. Both sides must agree before-hand to allow at least one NATO and Russian monitor at each polling place, and must abide by the results.
Three: Once the vote has happened and the results are in, The west AND Russia must work together to rebuild the decimated Ukrainian infrastructure and cities. Along with significant humanitarian efforts to A) Help Ukrainians/Russian living in Ukraine rebuild their tattered lives and B) Assist any who wish emigrate from Ukraine with emigrate to their desired nation, be it Russia, or an EU nation.
Four: One all of this is done, Russia, The Ukraine, and the EU/NATO must sign a treaty that no nation shall again infringe on sovereign Ukraine soil. If one does, membership from the UN will be immediately revoked.
I honestly do think the U.S./EU/NATO nor Russia would accept a proposal like this. They are too muddied in their own political power games and are too far in. Any concession by either side would be seen as weakness and we can't have that now can we?
originally posted by: kitzik
a reply to: ScientificRailgun
One: Withdraw all Russian troops and Armaments from Ukraine, minus Crimea. This would be a compromise on both parts.
Two: With joint NATO and Russian monitors, allow eastern Ukraine to hold a referendum on whether they want to become a semi-autonomous district within Ukraine, much like Crimea before it's annexation. Both sides must agree before-hand to allow at least one NATO and Russian monitor at each polling place, and must abide by the results.
Three: Once the vote has happened and the results are in, The west AND Russia must work together to rebuild the decimated Ukrainian infrastructure and cities. Along with significant humanitarian efforts to A) Help Ukrainians/Russian living in Ukraine rebuild their tattered lives and B) Assist any who wish emigrate from Ukraine with emigrate to their desired nation, be it Russia, or an EU nation.
Four: One all of this is done, Russia, The Ukraine, and the EU/NATO must sign a treaty that no nation shall again infringe on sovereign Ukraine soil. If one does, membership from the UN will be immediately revoked.
I think this with addition that Ukraine will not join NATO would be acceptable to Russia, EU they can join if Germany thinking Greece is not enough lol. Russia would even pay some reparations for Crimea, like perpetual lease for 100 years with option for another elections or something like this.
But, as we all know USA is not going according to this plan but treating Russia like Iraq.
This arrogance, especially coming from some Kenyan Indonesian ( and you know Russians ARE racists ) what is driving the stubbornness. Yes, I actually thinking that it is Obamer lecturing tone and his color that also adding the spice.
originally posted by: crazyewok
originally posted by: stirling
originally posted by: crazyewok
Honestly why is the US pocking its grubby noses in Ukraine?
Why cant the US just piss of and leave Ukraine to war on its own. The last thing a civil war needs anyway is MORE GUNS!.
Why does the US always feel the need to make things worse?
Anyway there are bigger threats the west is facing at the moments threats unlike Ukraine that are are actually threatening direct national security. Ie ISIS. concentrate on them FFS.
The threat from the Invasion of Ukraine is the biggest threat the free world faces right now Wok....ISIS ? ..meh
Violence in Ukraine is isolated to Ukraine. Putin or east Ukraine wont dare go further in NATO lands like poland as UK/France/Germany alone would kick Russia back across the border in hours.
Russia= Armed forces based around 1980's tec and bits of 90's tec thrown in manned with poorly trained conscripts.
UK/France/Germany= Well trained troops renown throughout the world with 21st century equipment.
And then lets add USA armed forces into that mix, armed forces that dwarf the UK/French and German forces combined with even better tec.......
Yeah russia could NEVER win a offensive war and Putin knows.
Now ISIS are spreading and monsters affiliated conducting attacks in Europe and as fare as Australia.
So yeah I see them as a bigger threat.
originally posted by: crazyewok
originally posted by: ScientificRailgun
So are you suggesting we just let Russia roll all over Europe and take what it wants just because it has nuclear weapons?
originally posted by: crazyewok
originally posted by: ScientificRailgun
a reply to: crazyewok
Nobody thought Germany was well equipped enough to do the damage it did in WWII. They had just begun recovering from a horrible depression, much worse than what Russia is going through right now.
You have to see the bigger picture. It's not just Russia, but China, North Korea, and other states sympathetic to Russia that could be united to become a new Axis power that threatens the entire world.
Hitler did not have 10,000 nukes.
If he had he could have kept Europe.
No
Cause Britain and France Also have nuclear weapons.
So Russia wont be rolling over EU NATO lands for the same reason we shouldn't be rolling other Russian land.
That Reason MAD.
The lesson here is Ukraine should not have given up its nukes.
Anyone that threatens or actually goes through with destroying the Chernobyl NPP, or ANY other Slavic/EU Nuclear power station would have the rest of the civilized world collectively turning the nation responsible into a salted desert.
originally posted by: billyvonhelvete
Im surprised that no one has threatened to sink a missle into chernoble yet, or is that threat yet to come?, that would the be the mother of all dirty bombs.
B. V. H
a reply to: stirling
originally posted by: AreUKiddingMe
a reply to: BornAgainAlien
I guess the US forced Russia to invade Ukraine? The Russian anger needs to be directed at Putin, the one who got them into this mess, and Putin needs to pull his head out of the sand and get out of Ukraine. Let's put it into perspective!