Dead Teen Comes BACK TO LIFE as Mom Prays.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Are you asserting that every medical professional is a Christian?

I am saying that prayers are said for every human being often by many.

That fact nullifies studies or research in trying to determine if prayer aids in healing.

No control group for research can be formed that would be out of bounds of prayer that is currently and continually happening.

a reply to: deadeyedick

I am saying that prayers are said for every human being often by many.

Okay....

That fact nullifies studies or research in trying to determine if prayer aids in healing.

No. It doesn't. You have no grounds on which to base that conclusion.

No control group for research can be formed that would be out of bounds of prayer that is currently and continually happening.

What?
No control group can be formed?
So, then - you assume that your assumption is correct. I see. Well, so - are we to send Thank You notes to all the people praying all day every day who are responsible for all the healings and savings going on?

A 'control group' COULD be formed - of a group of atheists who have a loved one in critical condition. But YOU are saying that people are praying for them anyway - so, their loved ones be damned - it's only the people who are PRAYING for them (anonymous sufferers) that lead to their recovery. Right? So, little Timmy falls down the well, and his parents and friends and family never heard of "God", but Lassie goes to get Papa to save Timmy - yet - it wasn't Lassie and Papa who saved Timmy from the well - instead, it was these people who are praying for everyone on earth yet who've never laid eyes on Timmy. Right?

You are saying that people 'praying' for total strangers who might be in dire straits in one way or another are responsible for their surviving whatever strait in which they found themselves; that medicine and skill and technology and search-and-rescue and telecommunications are irrelevant. That the relative health/age/situation of the sufferer has no bearing on the recovery - but ONLY whether or not people are praying for this person who they only surmise exists and needs help.

Right?
Is that right?

wow




Interesting. Edit:
So - WHY DOES ANYONE DIE, then?

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
So - WHY DOES ANYONE DIE, then?

... because it's all part of gods plan... We are merely the playthings of God... whether we live or die, whether we believe or not and regardless of whether we exercise our free will or not... gods grand plan is the answer... obviously.

No need to question, especially if the question precludes god (because that's obviously impossible since god is in everything)... just ask and you will receive...

... so why don't I have my Ferrari yet?

To Deadeyedick:

Do you see the absolute arrogance of your posts and religion in general?

You have taken an idea (prayer) which is completely conceived by man (no proof of a God... remember?.. other than what you and others have made up), and justified the very nature of "being" as a byproduct of gods "graciousness". No proof required... in your head.

You didn't "win" this discussion, you just took such an infantile approach that it made the whole conversation redundant.

Congratulations on your confirmation bias.

Really good way to alienate anyone who doesn't hold your preconceived opinion, and assure that religion is doing what's it's always done...

... keeping humanity divided.

a reply to: puzzlesphere

You didn't "win" this discussion, you just took such an infantile approach that it made the whole conversation redundant.

Congratulations on your confirmation bias.

Really good way to alienate anyone who doesn't hold your preconceived opinion, and assure that religion is doing what's it's always done...

... keeping humanity divided.

Thanks, puzzlesphere.

*********************************************************

@ dick - you did not "win" - not at all. That said, 'thanks' to the people who are 'praying' 24/7/365 for others they don't know. I do see how that is the 'all focusing on the same thing'. But still - PEOPLE DIE EVERY DAY. So - the prayers, no matter how generous and kind-hearted and well-meant, do NOT work for everyone.

I am, nevertheless, sorry for your suffering. Perhaps if you opened your mind and eyes (both at the same time), you could see how your position not only causes friction, but also demonstrates (heh - get it? demon....nm) ILLUstrates cognitive dissonance.

I have nothing against you, dick. I just feel sorry that you have become so....afraid. So confident that you are some sort of 'master' who has saved the world from destruction multiple times - so sure that the people who pray are those who we should all "thank" for their dedication.

Do those people pray for the hostages that ISIS has? Do they pray for an end to the atrocities being carried out in the name of some 'God-speak'? WHY is this happening, if these people (who pray for everyone) are so effective?

Here's a thing I learned the other day (watching The West Wing - an AWESOME program that I never saw while it was on the air, but am currently binging on via Netflix). Now, I'm no 'debate' expert, but I encourage everyone, debate experts or not, to think about this:

POST HOC, ERGO PROPTER HOC

@ deadeyedick: If you don't understand it, look it up. Repeat the various translations to yourself until it sinks in. Then think about this thread.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

You are just ignoring the truth. Many pray for athiest saftey all the time. Your control group would be tainted by that fact. You are leaving out the will factor.

If a person is seriously hurt but has the will to live and prayer is involved then perhaps God will send some believrs and non believers to help that one. Will is two fold because there is physical will and spiritual will.

Do not confuse what i am saying. I am not claiming that prayer or will alone heals people all the time. God uses us but if we never ask or are asked on our behalf then the will of the spirit wins.

Again people save lives everyday but it is prdained by God through prayer and will.

a reply to: puzzlesphere

... because it's all part of gods plan...

All things have to be factored in. Exercising free will through prayer effects all of our lives.

If you want a fancy car you have to want it more than others and you have to want it both physically and spiritually then you have to suffer work for it.

Everything i am saying in this thread can be disproven if you can explain why the young man in the op did not die but thousands in the exact circunstances did die. Any acceptable explaination has to be repetable and could then be used to save countless victims of drowning and lack of oxygen symptoms.

a reply to: deadeyedick

You are just ignoring the truth. Many pray for athiest saftey all the time. Your control group would be tainted by that fact. You are leaving out the will factor.

No, I'm not ignoring the truth.
I'm not saying that prayer is 'useless', but I stand by my assertion that PRAYER ALONE does not usually save people. And YOU are ignoring the fact that EVERYONE DIES.

If your faceless, nameless prayer group's efforts were working, then NO ONE WOULD EVER DIE.

Oh. Wait - you'll just say that "God decided it was time for them to come home, so no amount of praying would have helped." Nice scapegoating.

Every day, people are killed by other people, natural disasters, accidents, illness, disease, and organ failure. YOU were the one who said we could all focus and change things. That part I believe in - but the TRUTH is that NO ONE lives forever. So - if all these prayerful-people pray, but a situation does not turn around, they can just throw up their hands and say, "Well, WE did everything we could. Wasn't really up to us."

And what you said about "animals being frozen and resuscitated later" --
new flash - people are ANIMALS.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Look you are ignorring or not grasping what i am saying.

You seem to think i am saying that by praying that you will suddenly be healed from all sicknesss.

I never said that and i have givin honest credit to all the hard work that goes into the first responders and medical field.

I am tellling you that the situation is complex.

Prayer,will and action is what it takes.

Prayer effects every humans lives.

Will is dual and even more complex than that but basically it is your concious will vs your spiritual will weighed against other will that may be for or against you.

Action is very complex and involves all types of people in a situation and is effected by the first two.

a reply to: deadeyedick

No I'm not ignoring or refusing to acknowledge your points.

Perhaps we can just take a couple of deep breaths and move on with other topics. I understand that you are saying that prayer is important, and that you believe the actions and skills of men are AS NECESSARY as you think Prayer is.

I'm saying that it's possible that prayers help - I, too, pray when I'm distressed - but I pray to my "angels", not to Jesus.

I was a Wiccan practitioner for several years, and I understand about summoning healing energy, asking the elemental powers to help out, etc. Colored candles, moon-rise rituals, herbal influence, all of it. Tarot, astrology.....

I don't think they are ridiculous - for all I know they work as they are meant to.
But the bottom line is that "everything is how it is supposed to be at any given moment" - The ZEN state of mind.

Anyway, Yes - the power of conscious focus can help. Positive Mental Attitude. Best wishes. Remote loving.
Can't hurt; but doesn't "prove" that there is a God-man paying any attention like on the Truman Show.

You HAVE seen The Truman Show, right?

[bTHE POWER OF PRAYER

I would just like to add to this thread a story that I saw on tv on a show called Unsolved Mysteries, in which a woman was driving home at night in snow, her car skidded off the road so she decided to walk the rest of the way home it was -25c she got to a neighbors house and collapsed outside his front door, he found her in the morning frozen and dead, she was rushed to hospital and you see her lying on the gurney, her eyes were like ice cubes I'll never forget her eyes frozen and wide open, her hands and feet were jet black from frost bite.

The nurses covered her in blankets and hot water bottles to thaw her out, one of the nurses was a chuch goer and made a call to the church to get a prayer ring started for her, 35 Christians started the prayers.

The lady recovered and nurses noticed that her hands and feet were now flesh colored and all the frost bite had completely disappeared, the lady went on to marry and have 2 children I loved that story and I always ask my friends to join me in a prayer ring if anyone is sick and a friend of ours opened her eyes and came round from her coma after prayers were said for her so I personally know this works and will continue to pray for those that need help

Most of the people are praying for themselves but its harder to pray for yourself than for someone else.