Dead Teen Comes BACK TO LIFE as Mom Prays.

a reply to: TechUnique

You got me there. There was the Torah.

My point was just that unlike today, people couldn't flip through and study the Bible to gain context. There wouldn't be any for this topic in the OT (as far as I know) though. That was back when God was making war, not love.

I think you all claiming science has the right answer are just seeing what you want to see. We have seen brain damage set in from as early as 3to4 min in other cases in cold water. Sure when all things are revealed there will be a way to understand all things in proper order but science does not have an explaination that concurs with all other accounts. There are still unknown factors involved.

You can not point to the cold as being responsible for lack of damage because other cases show opposite. Indeed you can point to the cold being a factor though. Don't confuse the two while blindly ignoring the unknown. There are many other cases of these events that are documented by coast guard. Often they pick up a floater and a couple hrs later it comes to life. Same circumstances often nothing happens.

There is no scientific explaination for this. Sure science can tell you what happened and make it sound legit but if you having a lack of faith in God and extreme faith in science how bout a grudge match. It is still cold out in many places. Dial 911 jump in and be a scientific hero. I will just trust today that God will never ask me to prove him in such a manner.

So if God saved the kid I guess free will is just a myth.

Conundrum.

originally posted by: Klassified

originally posted by: corvuscorrax
Amazing story.

I personally find it amazing that there are still atheists out there.

Must be comforting to believe that when you die that's it.

As for me, well I don't know specifics but I believe it's a bit more complex than that.

What makes you think that all atheists believe "when you die, that's it"? Lack of belief in a deity doesn't preclude us from being spiritual. Some atheists believe that way, but not all.

Genuinely curious. Assuming you subscribe to that line of thought. If an atheist doesn't believe in a deity, but believes in something after death. What do they think happens?

a reply to: Grimpachi

no big mystery that his will to be here outweighed his will to be on the other side.
from that we can say that most that die may be where they chose to be.
free will in tact

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

I believe Jesus was talking to his Disciples in that scripture? Not trying to backtrack or cop out of the argument, just a thought.

Also 1 John 5:15 states 'This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us."

originally posted by: deadeyedick
a reply to: Grimpachi

no big mystery that his will to be here outweighed his will to be on the other side.
from that we can say that most that die may be where they chose to be.
free will in tact

I agree with this assessment but people who strive to ascribe logic to these types of beliefs and discussions are not likely to be swayed from their original view point.

No matter how noble your intentions may be.

Not a miracle,just science. Very common for hypothermics to come back.

originally posted by: Grimpachi
So if God saved the kid I guess free will is just a myth.

Conundrum.

Please elaborate? I think I can kind of see where you are coming from but it still doesn't make sense. The boy still has free will?

a reply to: deadeyedick

I see, so those that have died must have chosen to die.


Stretching is very important before doing rigorous gymnastics.

a reply to: corvuscorrax
I can only speak for myself. I don't know what happens, and I'm not afraid to say so. But I've seen enough in my life to convince me this life ain't all there is.

originally posted by: Grimpachi
a reply to: deadeyedick

I see, so those that have died must have chosen to die.


Stretching is very important before doing rigorous gymnastics.

It appears you are the one who is doing the stretching(of arguments), and mental gymnastics.. just my opinion though.

a reply to: TechUnique

Of course Allah is the greatest deceiver...

Who would have more power or ability to deceive than Allah if he willed it...

The creator of all will never be second best at anything.

But being the greatest doesn't necessarily mean that Allah will actually deceive people.




Surah 3:54
The opponents of Jesus devised a plan, & Allah devised a plan...
& Allah is the best of all planners/deceivers.

a reply to: Grimpachi

It is outlined in scripture that a battle between the spirit and flesh exist.

Think of it like a 50/50 split and you are in competition with not only your spirit but that is also weighed against the will of others when it comes to wants and needs.

All those hungry kids have a will to eat but that can be outweighed by others will for greed and power.

When the world focuses on the same goal we can change things but that is where social conditioning steps in and creates division amoungst our collective will.

a reply to: TechUnique

That's not what it says.

At least not in any of the versions listed here.

I'm not sure who he was talking to, or why it would matter.

Unless you're suggesting his disciples had special privileges.

"Friend of the boss" type deal.

I don't exactly consider you copping out, in this case.

I know and understand that due to other experiences in your life which you've mentioned in other threads, you have a confirmation bias (read as: a lot of faith in your beliefs). It's rare when I agree with you on certain topics and I admit I like challenging your position to see how you respond. I won't fault you for standing firm in what you believe but I honestly wish you (in this case) could admit that it wasn't necessarily God deciding this boy shall live as opposed to sound medical procedures. I can admit that their prayers and faith gave the doctors and parents the strength to persevere and not give up in trying to save this young mans life.

It doesn't always have to be Gods or demons, you know?

I highly doubt you apply that logic to everything in your life.

E.g. Sleeping through your alarm isn't the fault of demons, nor was it God's will. It was just something that happened.

Anyway, good chatting as usual

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
a reply to: TechUnique

Of course Allah is the greatest deceiver...

Who would have more power or ability to deceive than Allah if he willed it...

The creator of all will never be second best at anything.

But being the greatest doesn't necessarily mean that Allah will actually deceive people.




Surah 3:54
The opponents of Jesus devised a plan, & Allah devised a plan...
& Allah is the best of all planners/deceivers.

Lets not get into a Christianity vs Islam debate in this thread, please! I understand you were just responding to my comment about your faith but can we respectfully save it for another thread?

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

I see you saying you are against jesus by following allah.

I made assumptions there so please clairfy if they are incorrect.

Do tell us what year the koran was written.

on topic

I would bet my bottom dollar that if anyone would reach out and ask this guy if he ate an orange that day he would tell you yes.

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

Good talking to you too! Look forward to many more in the future.
Peace.

Too bad god didn't keep the kid from falling in the water in the first place. I guess he wouldn't get much praise for that though.

Oh, but I forgot he gave people free will...err...sort of.

Like I said; "conundrum".

Logic can be a real hindrance when it comes to the supernatural. It is like kryptonite.

a reply to: Grimpachi

It was the doctors free will to work to save the boys life.

So did God manipulate that free will to that effect?

We know from scripture God manipulates free will.

Was the doctor going to call it?

Would the boy had lived without any medical intervention?