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Question to Anarchists

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posted on Dec, 16 2004 @ 09:39 AM
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I've often wondered what draws people to anarchism,
My view on anarchism is that it means no:
Government (of any kind)
Law
Rights
Responsibilties
Health Care (Private or Public)
Benefits
Military
(you get the picture)

Well wouldn't that mean an end to progress and a stable society, wouldn't anarchism cause chaos.

What draws people to chaos and the purposefull breakdown of society?




posted on Dec, 16 2004 @ 09:58 AM
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I wondered the same thing too. I think there is a fundamental mis-conception about anarchism, namely that it alegedly advocates a breakdown of law and order. Obviously a society cannot fuction without some form of order, and the assumtion that arnarchism is about disorder is what gives it bad press.
What anarchists actually propagate is a society without authority and authoritarian figures, based on the axiom that 'no man should rule or dominate another'. This idea is often misconstrued through the suggestion/assumption that order cannot exist without authority.

Infoshop is a very useful site for research and information about anarchism. I'm currently in the process of learning about anarchism from the site, and have been suprised by what I've read so far. (the site appears to be down at the moment - typical!)

[edit on 16-12-2004 by Paul]



posted on Dec, 18 2004 @ 10:42 AM
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the anarchists are the lazier inbreds of the left wing...
they would rather start a revolution than work a day in their life.


politics.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 12-18-2004 by echelon]



posted on Dec, 18 2004 @ 12:22 PM
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Anarchists seem drown to the idea because you are "against the government". But in reality, with no law or government, there is nothing stopping someone from stabbing you for no reason.



posted on Dec, 19 2004 @ 09:16 AM
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Originally posted by infinite
But in reality, with no law or government, there is nothing stopping someone from stabbing you for no reason.



But in reality who is stopping them now? The average sentence for murder is SIX YEARS and thats just if you die and they catch the person that did it AND manage to convct. The odds are, even if he kills you, he will not spend ONE DAY behind bars.

That is why we Libertarians believe in the fifth admendment. Nothing stops someone from stabbing you as quick as shooting them



posted on Dec, 19 2004 @ 10:30 AM
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Originally posted by Amuk
That is why we Libertarians believe in the fifth admendment. Nothing stops someone from stabbing you as quick as shooting them


LMFAO!




But in reality who is stopping them now?


Well the police are meant to, thats why we have laws, etc to protect us from harm.



posted on Dec, 19 2004 @ 11:00 AM
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Originally posted by infinite


But in reality who is stopping them now?


Well the police are meant to, thats why we have laws, etc to protect us from harm.


Not really. By LAW they are not there to protect you. They are there to catch the attacker after the fact and are not really expected to do that.

Police cannot be held responsable for your safety by order of the Supreme Court (I think, they may have just held up a lower courts ruling)

The only person protecting you is YOU



posted on Dec, 19 2004 @ 11:03 AM
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Originally posted by Amuk
The only person protecting you is YOU


and a baseball bat.....


Looks like there aren't any anarchists on the boards at the momment to answer my original question



posted on Dec, 19 2004 @ 03:03 PM
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Originally posted by UK Wizard
and a baseball bat.....


Looks like there aren't any anarchists on the boards at the momment to answer my original question


They are, only a small group, but they are very vocal on this board.
It would of been nice to hear their views though



posted on Dec, 19 2004 @ 06:58 PM
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Originally posted by UK Wizard
Looks like there aren't any anarchists on the boards at the momment to answer my original question


I am more of a Libertarian, we are kinda like "Anarchists Lite"


I would be for anarchy but if this government disappeared we would be ruled by the neighborhood Warlords, or whoever. Society can not exist without SOME over site whither its a World wide Government or the local street gang someone will step up to fill the vacuum.

Libertarians believe in just having the WEAKEST government possible that can still protect us from other governments and I believe that is probably the closest we can get to anarchy



posted on Dec, 21 2004 @ 05:36 PM
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Anarchy is another dream, where society works with no laws or restriction but people are nice to each other and don't want to commit crimes.

Like what Communism works towards eventually.



posted on Jan, 3 2005 @ 12:44 AM
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Well, I've been away for a few weeks due to a move, but this is a great topic to see my first night back online.


Originally posted by UK Wizard
I've often wondered what draws people to anarchism,

I think for many, or myself at the least, it is an underlying desire for freedom. Although anarchists will state any number of reasons for their beliefs, you can usually place the root feelings as a desire for liberty, the dream of being your own master. Even if it appears that an anarchist just has a problem with authority, it is more likely that they have a problem with not deciding themselves who the authority figures above them are. Democracy is no excuse for an anarchist, for we are individuals. No anarchist wants to have their lives controlled by the herd. The true anarchist is not a pack-animal, he is free spirit.


My view on anarchism is that it means no:
Government (of any kind)

Yes, this is true of authentic anarchism. Like Amuk said, however, there exists an ideology that has its roots in anarchism but does not go all the way so far as the complete abolition of government is concerned. I fall into this category and consider my ideology minarchism, a term coined by Libertarians to describe a more anarchist leaning Libertarian.

Law

We do not need government to have laws. Each society has a set of values and mores it subscribes to, and any kindergarten student can recite them. Do you need an authority figure to notify you when you have been wronged?

Rights

The American founding fathers had a good understanding of this one. We all have certain rights that come from God, or from just being human if you prefer. Government does not grant you rights, it is simply its job to protect them. You have been conditioned to think that without a government granting you your rights, you have none, or at least have no means to defend them. This is simply not true; you must be proactive in defending your rights.

Responsibiltity

We all have responsibilities we choose to take on, with or without an authority figure delegating them to us. You have responsibilities to your self and your family, to your community if you choose to be a member of one. I don't see how this would change with the advent of an anarchist society.

Health Care (Private or Public)

Because your doctor was forced into his profession? Because medical schools are forced to teach? Money is the driving factor behind everything, and so long as there is a profit in health care, someone will be there to collect that profit.

Benefits

You will have to be more specific there. If you mean a government committing armed robbery against you to feed someone else then no, you would not have benefits under an anarchist society. If you mean charitable organizations helping people in times of need, I don't think many anarchists would be against that.

Military

Any man who is not willing to pick up a gun to defend what is his may well loose all he has. Likewise, any society that is not willing to band together against an aggressor is not likely to survive as a society.


Well wouldn't that mean an end to progress and a stable society, wouldn't anarchism cause chaos.

What drives progress? Isn't it greed? So long as men can acquire money and fame, progress will continue. Capitalism does not require a government. Progress is not made by mandates from your masters that it should, it is made by inspired or greedy men and institutions.

So far as a stable society goes, that could fill an entire topic itself (as could most of the things you asked about) but I think my response to that can be found in the other answers.


What draws people to chaos and the purposeful breakdown of society?
I think you have a misunderstanding of the difference between society and government.



posted on Jan, 3 2005 @ 06:45 AM
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We do not need government to have laws. Each society has a set of values and mores it subscribes to, and any kindergarten student can recite them. Do you need an authority figure to notify you when you have been wronged?


People in society have different views on laws, people have different views on murder, some who say give them the death penalty some would say re-educate them... the values of one society aren't all the same.



The American founding fathers had a good understanding of this one. We all have certain rights that come from God, or from just being human if you prefer. Government does not grant you rights, it is simply its job to protect them. You have been conditioned to think that without a government granting you your rights, you have none, or at least have no means to defend them. This is simply not true; you must be proactive in defending your rights.


Fair enough.



We all have responsibilities we choose to take on, with or without an authority figure delegating them to us. You have responsibilities to your self and your family, to your community if you choose to be a member of one. I don't see how this would change with the advent of an anarchist society.




Because your doctor was forced into his profession? Because medical schools are forced to teach? Money is the driving factor behind everything, and so long as there is a profit in health care, someone will be there to collect that profit.


I live the UK, the health care isn't private although that does exist also, we pay our taxes and get treated. There is no profit in public health care.



You will have to be more specific there. If you mean a government committing armed robbery against you to feed someone else then no, you would not have benefits under an anarchist society. If you mean charitable organizations helping people in times of need, I don't think many anarchists would be against that.


By benefits i mean finicial aid so a person can support themselves while they search for a job, on this topic the US and UK differ greatly.



Any man who is not willing to pick up a gun to defend what is his may well loose all he has. Likewise, any society that is not willing to band together against an aggressor is not likely to survive as a society.


1000 untrained militia don't stand a chance against 100 trained invading soldiers.



What drives progress? Isn't it greed?


Greed is a major factor, but what benefit is there unless the person has something to gain from progress.


I think you have a misunderstanding of the difference between society and government.


Government is part of society.


[edit on 3-1-2005 by UK Wizard]



posted on Jan, 3 2005 @ 07:41 AM
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Liberty is essential for the full flowering of human intelligence, creativity, and dignity. To be dominated by another is to be denied the chance to think and act for oneself, which is the only way to grow and develop one's individuality. Domination also stifles innovation and personal responsibility, leading to conformity and mediocrity. Thus the society that maximises the growth of individuality will necessarily be based on voluntary association, not coercion and authority.


These words by Percy Bysshe Shelley gives an idea of what anarchism stands for in practice and what ideals drive it:

The man
Of virtuous soul commands not, nor obeys:
Power, like a desolating pestilence,
Pollutes whate'er it touches, and obedience,
Bane of all genius, virtue, freedom, truth,
Makes slaves of men, and, of the human frame,
A mechanised automaton.

see Anarchists faq

and see

Aren't most people too stupid for a free society to work?




I'm not sure where the saying came from but it goes like this...

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting to get different results... Apply that to the d and r's in this country and I guess the majority of this country is stupid...And ignorant. People in this country don't even know what the definition of democracy is... Because it sure as hell ain't what we got going on in the usa or canada or the uk... it's not democracy... not to mention again that the us is a republic... "and to the republic of which it stands" do you see democracy in there anywhere?? The leaders of these countries know it too, and it's amazing that people can be so blind, stupid and ignorant to the facts that are laying out right under there eyes.. so to answer this persons question of if people are too stupid to have a free society, the answer would be yes...



posted on Jan, 3 2005 @ 07:03 PM
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Originally posted by UK Wizard
1000 untrained militia don't stand a chance against 100 trained invading soldiers.


Don't they teach history over there? I can't believe a Brit would say that to an American, we settled that question over 200 years ago.

[edit on 3-1-2005 by cavscout]



posted on Jan, 4 2005 @ 10:09 AM
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Originally posted by cavscout
Don't they teach history over there? I can't believe a Brit would say that to an American, we settled that question over 200 years ago.


Don't mention the war


I feel really ignorant now



posted on Jan, 4 2005 @ 04:27 PM
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Originally posted by UK Wizard
I've often wondered what draws people to anarchism,


The desire to live in true freedom and the responsibility that comes with it.



posted on Jan, 16 2005 @ 03:34 PM
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If you really want to know, do some research and you'll find out what Anarchism is REALLY about.
Then you won't have to Assume what anarchists believe in.

Here's a start;

www.anarchism.net...

www.spunk.org...

anarchism.ws...

www.geocities.com...



posted on Mar, 20 2005 @ 11:28 PM
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To me anarchism is the complete freedom of humanity... It removes all the ideas and concepts that bind us as humans to a system... All the concepts such as freedom, law, time, self, me, you, this, that ... Its all nothing, its all just words, that the human imagination has given meaning...

To me anarchism is cloesly tied with nihilsm... As someone was saying earlier - There is absolutely nothing to stop a person from stabbing you, the laws may say its wrong to do so, but what is the law - The law is some words on paper, it doesn't physically inhibit a person from stabbing you... Therefore, law is nothing but a figment of our imagination...

Free your mind...



posted on Mar, 25 2005 @ 04:26 PM
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To elaborate on a few points already mentioned and to maybe bring up some new ones.

The law is just a piece of paper, yes. The people who stab now, probably would stab with no laws in place , what's the difference? Perhaps violence would increase, perhaps not. All new civilizations must undergoe a certain degree of violence to even emerge. Through the growth process most usually find some way to deal with it.

Tell you one thing though, a rapist , murderer, child molester, or robber would probably be more afraid of what someone would do to defend themselves in a society with no laws, as opposed to one with cops that are supposed to respect your rights.

As for society slipping into chaos. Of course if alot people didn't have to work then they wouldn't. But there are some of us, who can't stand not to work. Besides it's a matter of responsiblity. If I knew that it only took maybe a few hours a week to donate my time to the local dump, water treatment plant, or whatever to ensure that the services kept running then I would do that. So would alot of other people.

Of course many aspects of our industrialized society (i.e. factory farming, fast food, big business, consumer culture) would have to be abandoned. But I for one IMHO think that it would be a small price to pay for a little bit of F'ing freedom.

If Anarchy were to ever work it would take the utmost level of human responsibility, not only for oneself but also for ones neighbor.

Anarchy+Peace=Freedom



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