Family asks cops to check on 74-year-old vet after surgery, and they break in and kill him.

originally posted by: abe froman

originally posted by: network dude
a reply to: WCmutant

I guess I don't understand your point. Were the police suppose to ignore the request from the family to check on him?
You did see the timeline of events right?

Was there a warrant? If not, the cops were breaking and entering. Self defense is not legal during commision of a felony. Manslaughter one. 20 years for the shooter and a lesser charge for his accomplice.
Suspicion of death by natural causes is not justification for police entry without proper authorization in any state to the best of my knowledge.

I started to respond to Network Dude's comment. But I see that Abe Froman already touched on what I was going to say.

What they did is going to be a true test of the community caretaker role that some police utilize to help individuals. These cases often aren't based on family calls for police to check on another family member, and they don't require warrants. This is not a typical case and the individual they were intending to aid they killed.

The 74-year old Allen is a black man. Racism? No idea. I prefer to look at patterns and it wasn't that long ago that the same metropolitan area of North Carolina (Charlotte-Mecklenburg) shot a young black man, Jonathan Farrell who had crashed his car and was seeking help.

I'm not saying the cop that shot 74-year old Allen is racist, but there does appear a severe fear in the USA of a black man with a weapon of any kind. And now we have another dead man, who happens to be black, because the cops in the Charlotte area seem to be overly jumpy bastards.

a reply to: WCmutant

TO you and Abe,
I in no way think this is a good thing, or even that the cops did the right thing. They were called by the man's family to check on him and the call did come in at 10PM, so I can only assume the family was worried about him. I suppose the best thing in the future, is to tell the family to figure it out themselves and to fluck off.

It's ironic and sad that they went to the mans house to try to help him, yet killed him, but (and I an sure most of you would have used those ninja skills) the officer was faced with a man pointing a gun at him and apparently didn't respond to the officers commands. I am sure the officer isn't happy with the outcome either.

There are quite a few cases where the cops act like assholes and do very bad things. Some cops are bad. If all the high and mighty ATSers out there who either don't work, or have sucky jobs, would step up and take a job in law enforcement to rid the wold of these bad cops from inside, the world would be a better place. I am sorry I interrupted the lynching.

Cant believe people are defending the cops here....

Police should know that in the US many home owners have guns.
You know the 2nd amendment and all that.

They should also know wakeing up a ill, elderly confussed person at 10:30 is going to create pannic.


So it goes without saying that it does not take a high IQ to combine those two points above and work out the police screwed up badly.

a reply to: crazyewok

no doubt. This man's family must be a bunch of boneheads. I mean, they live in the USA where everyone has multiple guns and cannot wait to use them, yet they called the cops and asked them to go check on this dude. It's a shame they didn't have someone from the UK there to tip them off about it being a set up.

www.charlotteobserver.com...


I see stuf like this and I wonder.
Did the gun belong to the old guy?
Did he think the cops were burglers an was defending himself?

Or was the gun a plant to cover gross negligence.

Time will tell.

At 11:30 p.m., Gastonia police officers asked for assistance from the Gastonia Fire Department and Gaston Emergency Medical Services to check on Allen’s house again, police said.

“A decision was made to enter the house, concerned that he may be inside in need of emergency assistance,” Helton said.

The Fire Department helped enter through the back door of the house, and Gastonia police Officer Josh Lefevers announced his presence, Helton said.

When officers entered, they found Allen holding a handgun and pointing it toward the officers, Helton said. “He was challenged to lower the gun down,” Helton said. “The gun was pointed in the direction of the officers, and a shot was fired that fatally wounded him.”

Read more here: www.charlotteobserver.com...#storylink=cpy

Apparently in the US if you see the police prepare to go to war or die because they will kill you for any reason that they can think of.

This country is imploding and most of the people here love it.

originally posted by: network dude

originally posted by: real_one
a reply to: RoScoLaz4

"But we don't have all the facts yet"

Yea, may as well assign guilt, dispense any punishment, ensure the penalties are sever enough, and if we have time later, we can ask a few questions.

Ummm...I know...................right...?

Oh...wait a minute...you were talking about blaming the cop and not the cop "dispensing the justice and ensuring the penalty was severe enough"...on the 74 year old dude recovering from heart surgery......................Silly me...

I do kinda think it was severe enough...being as the 74 year old recovering heart patient who just had his house broken into by the perp...................................is dead..............................Kwim...?




YouSir

Also to consider the man was probably heavily medicated by narcs. Which probably explains why he never answered the first time. Maybe he was passed out you know? Cops show up at night and busted the back door in and encountered him defending himself. Of course he would be pointing it at you. They probably told him to put it down half a second before they filled him full of holes. No witness just the word of the cop who put him in his grave. They will find this completely justified because dead people can't speak.

Here's the facts as I understand them

A family asks the police to check on their very ill and old relative
recovering from surgery.

The police knock on the front door, no answer.

The police search local hospitals for the ill relative.

The police then request fire and emergency services to
the ill man's address to respnd to possible deceased
person.

The police breach the backdoor and kill the ill relative
when he points and refuses to put down a gun he has pointed at
officers.

------------------

Ok, thats the facts as I understand they were reported.


So what are the cops supposed to do in that situation would be my
question?

For me, put in that situation, I would have backed off (if possible)
to a safe location and tried to reason with the man. If it turns out
that he is completely unreasonable and wants me off his property,
I leave...but now I'm liable for his welfare...if it turns out he has
over-medicated or was too ill to leave alone, and dies...I'm still to
blame.

So what do you expect the cops to do?

a reply to: rival

If it turns out
that he is completely unreasonable and wants me off his property,
I leave...but now I'm liable for his welfare...

How so? Cops aren't doctors. The guy was ornery enough to challenge the burglars (police) with a gun, he's probably ornery enough to make it through the night.

a reply to: windword

One thing that seems pretty clear in many of these repeat cases is that the man would still be alive if the police had no showed up. The man was not a danger to the public either.

It is clearly a failure on the police side.

In a perfect world you can say, "how so?...cops aren't doctors" and that
makes perfect sense--it's not the cop's job after all. But we live in a world
of greddy plaintiffs and lawyers, and arm-chair-after-the-fact quarterbacks,
who will hold you liable for every uncrossed "T" or undotted "I" and that's
especially true if there is money to be had.

I think my question is valid. How do you expect or want the cops to respond
to a situation like this--a welfare check that meets an armed challenge by
the very person that the welfare check is supposed to aid?

IMO...cops don't enter homes without a search warrant, ever, PERIOD.
But, you have to be willing to take the good with the bad in that case.
Sometimes people would die that didn't get aid for lack of a timely
search warrant. IMO that is an acceptble circumstance of freedom.

a reply to: rival

How do you expect or want the cops to respond
to a situation like this--a welfare check that meets an armed challenge by
the very person that the welfare check is supposed to aid?

NOT BY SHOOTING HIM!

originally posted by: Baddogma
Well, at least his welfare will never be in question again...

case solved.

Brutal, absolutely brutal, good on ya.

Super weak article ..

major questions left unresolved.. why not just send a EMT?? ??

originally posted by: real_one

"He was a lethal threat that had to be neutralized"

When did just holding a gun instantly become a lethal threat? When did it become a crime to hold a gun? When did it get to a point that cops give a command and give about 2 seconds before they open fire?

I can see it in my head... The old man walks out with some old pea shooter thinking someone is in his house, cops see the gun and scream "DROP THE GUN!!!" the old guy flinches and BAM BAM BAM....

a reply to: windword

That's too easy...and not an answer. I mean, I heard that
answer in my head as I typed the question...please try harder

Can't even have a welfare check on someone these days. It's really what it comes down to, but yet the people are wanting to remain divided. "Pants up don't loot" looool!
What happens when it's your grandpa... your child... then what *sigh*

originally posted by: real_one
a reply to: RoScoLaz4

"But we don't have all the facts yet"

"We don't know what happened before they shot this 74 year old man"

"He was a lethal threat that had to be neutralized"

"He should have checked in and this would have never happened"

Queue the in-house apologists...

Not the most eloquent response but neither is my reply...

But DAM SON...you summed it all up!!!!

I'm not sure on this one, I want to blame the cops but I'm not convinced they were entirely wrong. Welfare checks are one of the things they do, and just knocking on a door and going away when there's no answer isn't a proper check. It's the type of thing that requires visual confirmation.

I think that breaking in because they fear the worst is a completely legitimate reason.

I guess my question is, didn't we just have a thread about cops getting fancy new toys that can see through walls? Why not use something like that if they have it?

Alternatively I guess we're just left with the quality of the police officer. They were more willing to put an innocent man down than to possibly take a bullet for that innocent man. Just more confirmation that we're well past the days where police are heroes.