Jesus on the cross is a graven image and idolatry

a reply to: NavyDoc

that the crucifix is intended to be a reminder of the sacrifice and not "worshiped" an thus would not fall under the aforementioned scripture.

And yet it is a "symbol in your face" reminding you that you are nothing without the sacrifice.

Remember the quote again...pretty strong words

graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

a reply to: FlyersFan

They are not graven images

www.gotquestions.org...

Question: "What is a graven image?"

Answer: The phrase “graven image” comes from the King James Version and is first found in Exodus 20:4 in the second of the Ten Commandments. The Hebrew word translated “graven image” means literally “an idol.” A graven image is an image carved out of stone, wood, or metal. It could be a statue of a person or animal, or a relief carving in a wall or pole. It is differentiated from a molten image, which is melted metal poured into a cast. Abstract Asherah poles, carved wooden Ba’als covered in gold leaf, and etchings of gods accompanying Egyptian hieroglyphics are all graven images.

So what is a cross if not of the above? A symbol perhaps of Romes rule over Mankind?

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

It would take days and weeks, my friend, do it yourself

So you want to make claims, but when someone tells you they will show you what you believe is untrue you don't want to engage?

hen Abraham sacrifices his son (he did you know, the part when he changes his mind was added hundreds of years later by priests who figured God wasn't Moloch after all)

Now its obvious that you are being silly. The only person I have ever heard of mentioning this is Tzemah Yoreh. The theory doesn't have any major backing nor does it have any real evidence. I mean one of the things he points out is that Genesis 22:22 only mentions Abraham's return......if I have a party and I tell a buddy the next day that Joey came over and got so drunk he passed out, but I fail to mention my other friend dicky came over and did the same thing doesn't mean my buddy dicky never came to the party. Lets not post crazy speculation without some evidence

how about your crucifixion and the beheading of John?

Did you just use the death of Christ as an atrocity of God?

Did you also use the death of John by Herod? Really these are your inconsistencies and atrocities ?

So basically what I am getting is that you just want to get on here and talk a bunch of junk about Christians, but when one wants to have an honest open conversation you shout ridiculous claims and back them up with absolutely no evidence other than your own thoughts and wishes.

a reply to: HAZE3

I am christian, and no where in my church or any of its thousands of chapels will you find a cross

But Joseph Smith was into the occult and polygamy wasnt he?

www.patheos.com...

Some of those peddlers were said to sell as many as 25,000 books a year. Occult books were even more widely distributed than most other volumes because they were more likely to be copied. (6)
Many of the occult tools, rituals, and beliefs held by the Smith family can be traced back to the book The Magus by Francis Barrett first published in 1801. The Magus contains a great deal of information on astrology, a belief that Smith carried with him throughout his life. The dates Smith chose for his nuptials with his many wives even revolved around astrological dates.
The Magus also includes instructions for the construction of a Mars talisman, which just so happens to match the symbols found on the Smith family dagger. Their magical knife was used to create magical circles, and Joseph Smith was said to have used it for that purpose on treasure hunting expeditions. (7) Members of the Smith family also used magical parchments on occasion, complete with instructions for calling up angels and keeping oneself safe from bodily harm. Many old Mormon houses in Utah have magickal parchments built directly into the walls and foundations for good luck and safety. (8)

My religion is no spawn off the catholic church, or any other denomination either

I hate to be blunt but your beliefs are deluded if you think you're going to evolve to a god with his/her own planet to control

Jesus may be an invention of the ancient roman empire to create a religion that can be used as a control mechanism. Jesus may of been a paid actor and his execution staged. A dead man doesn't rise from the dead but a live actor could.

a reply to: AthlonSavage

Jesus may be an invention of the ancient roman empire to create a religion that can be used as a control mechanism. Jesus may of been a paid actor and his execution staged. A dead man doesn't rise from the dead but a live actor could.

It really astounds me at how willingly ignorant people are....is this truly something that keeps you from Christ, or the idea of humbling yourself and accepting that you need help from God?

a reply to: TheConstruKctionofLight

But Joseph Smith was into the occult and polygamy wasnt he?

The LDS church openly admits to Joseph Smith's polygamy, but they try and pretend that his wife knew about it. We have some of Joseph's old wives diaries and it clearly states that his wife didn't know. They also refuse to accept that polygamy was ordained a sin by God and yet Joseph said it wasn't. That is a clear sign of a false prophet.

Yes it is idolatrus to bow and pray to any graven image and is forbidden in the Bible. Why the catholics do this is beyond me.
a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

originally posted by: AthlonSavage
Jesus may be an invention of the ancient roman empire to create a religion that can be used as a control mechanism. Jesus may of been a paid actor and his execution staged. A dead man doesn't rise from the dead but a live actor could.

The Romans/Pharasee would not have been able to finesse this (as they were the actors) but I know another that could have written, directed and produced this historical extravaganza of a 'blockbuster' (Ben-Hur style; art imitates life).

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

OK, here we go, let's start with God and his sluts. In Hosea, God orders the prophet to buy two whores and get children with one of them, and keep the other hooker locked up in solitude. They don't list the price for the first one, but the second one, cost fifteen shekels of silver or about half a pound sterling, tossed in a case of beer.

So.... Explain to me, what is it with God and sluts? And please explain the ethics and morals involved in this rather odd narrative of the Bible (and BTW, who is the narrator of the Bible, and what could be said about it?) And here's the one to sum up your judgements: Is prostitution OK, and would you recommend prostitution as an alternative to marriage? Please refer to the Law of Moses here. I expect coherency as we progress towards ending up in the chambers of the Mother of Harlots. So one word: Coherency.

PS: Common slavery is next on my list if you like to prepare, but before we get thus far, I will have your say on every whore in the bible, from Rahab to Babylon.

ETA: And a reminder ftw:
“Consider what you do, for you judge not for man but for the LORD. He is with you in giving judgment. Now then, let the fear of the LORD be upon you. Be careful what you do, for there is no injustice with the LORD our God, or partiality or taking bribes.” [ESV] 2 Chronicles 19:6-7

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

Utapisjtim: what is it with God and sluts? And please explain the ethics and morals involved in this rather odd narrative of the Bible (and BTW, who is the narrator of the Bible, and what could be said about it?) And here's the one to sum up your judgements: Is prostitution OK, and would you recommend prostitution as an alternative to marriage? Please refer to the Law of Moses here. I expect coherency as we progress towards ending up in the chambers of the Mother of Harlots. So one word: Coherency.
PS: Common slavery is next on my list if you like to prepare, but before we get thus far, I will have your say on every whore in the bible, from Rahab to Babylon.

Prostitution apparently is allowed; one of the oldest professions in existence, a money transaction that is made by two consenting humans. Gambling is allowed, a group of folks get together to play a game of chance in order to take the money of others or 'winnings'. No Law involved here at all. Slavery is not an agreement made by mutual consent (unless it involves indentured servitude).

originally posted by: vethumanbeing
Prostitution apparently is allowed.

Nope. Not here it's not, and not in USA. If you buy a hooker over here, you are fined 15 000 Kroner or about £1500.


Key: Prostitution is legal and regulated - Prostitution is legal but organized activities such as brothels are illegal - Prostitution illegal
Source ==> en.wikipedia.org...

BTW, this challenge is to servantofthelamb or wassesname

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

OK, here we go, let's start with God and his sluts. In Hosea, God orders the prophet to buy two whores and get children with one of them, and keep the other hooker locked up in solitude.

Well first your not really picking one specific instance. In hosea 1 God tells the prophet to marry a whore, and he tells you this is to be a representation of Israel and Him. The prophet Hosea was commanded to marry an unfaithful wife, and this was a model of Israel’s broken relationship with God. Israel had been chosen and loved by God yet had began worshipping idols(unfaithful). Just as Hosea redeemed his wife and sought to continue his relationship with her, God promised to redeem Israel and renew their relationship with Him.


Now I'd like you to quote the Scripture because I don't know where you are getting the prophet buys two whores and keeps the other in solitude. Hosea 3 is not a different whore, its Gomer the one he married before, that ran off.

So.... Explain to me, what is it with God and sluts? And please explain the ethics and morals involved in this rather odd narrative of the Bible (and BTW, who is the narrator of the Bible, and what could be said about it?) And here's the one to sum up your judgements: Is prostitution OK, and would you recommend prostitution as an alternative to marriage

I don't mean to be rude but this is just kind of silly. This doesn't involve thought. All it would take for you to solve these is you actually reading the book rather than repeating what you have heard other anti-theist say. Obviously prostitution is a sin, but I don't really see why it matters that prostitution is mentioned though its never condoned. God has the prophet of Hosea marry a prostitute not just buy one.

Hosea 1
2 The beginning of the word of the Lord by Hosea. And the Lord said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms"


As for common slavery I assume you are making the same mistake as most people in assuming that the slavery mentioned in the Bible is the same as type of slavery that occurred during the african slave trade. This is simply not the case. Slavery in ancient jewish times was a form of debt payment. People willingly entered into slavery.

Slavery like that in Africa was condemned Exodus 21:16:
And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
originally posted by: vethumanbeing

VHB: Prostitution apparently is allowed.

Utapisjtim: Nope. Not here it's not, and not in USA. If you buy a hooker over here, you are fined 15 000 Kroner or about £1500.

Key: Prostitution is legal and regulated - Prostitution is legal but organized activities such as brothels are illegal - Prostitution illegal
Source ==> en.wikipedia.org...

Your point? Whether 'legal' or 'illegal' is moot (it is an industry that has survived centuries, thousands upon thousands of years) and no one is going to ruin abolish the trading of flesh for money. Its too lucrative/profitable. God allows it; so it is.

Uptamustbejesusindisquise: BTW, this challenge is to servantofthelamb or wassesname

Sorry, I had no idea this was an RSVP "by invitation only" event (who is/was the 'keynote speaker').n

Jesus on the cross is blasphemy because he is no longer on it or in the grave. He sits at the right hand of God in heaven, and is coming again.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
Jesus on the cross is blasphemy because he is no longer on it or in the grave. He sits at the right hand of God in heaven, and is coming again.

Apparently Jesus CHOSE to be remembered in this (torturous death) horrific fashion. I can think more buzzy wigs happier times or other more pleasant scenarios:
Drown when attempting to walk on water
Drank too much wine (he provided) at that notorious wedding and died of Alcohol poisoning
Contracted Leprosy while curing those of and could not cure himself
Married the prostitute Magdalene and died of syphilis
A FISHING accident: (Apostle targeted was not willing and took violent offense)
Was eventually 'smote' by God as being a youthful Upstart

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

And the LORD said to me, “Go again, love a woman who is loved by another man and is an adulteress, even as the LORD loves the children of Israel, though they turn to other gods and love cakes of raisins.” So I bought her for fifteen shekels of silver and a homer and a lethech of barley. And I said to her, “You must dwell as mine for many days. You shall not play the whore, or belong to another man; so will I also be to you.” [ESV] Hosea 3:1-3

The prostitute Hosea buys in chapter 3 is another woman. I think the two women originally were to represent the two kingdoms, Judah and Israel, however the text is rather ambiguous and though this is a prophecy of Israel vs. Judah it's not quite clear if the two prostitutes are the two kingdoms, or merely Israel in two stages. In the text, they are not the same, though some translations suggest that they are.

Here is the interlinear showing they are not the same: biblehub.com...

Anyway, it doesn't matter, they both illustrate Israel. And you didn't answer my questions. And trust me, I have even discussed Hosea with Jesus himself, and I certainly have read it, studied it even. God is not a hypocrite, Christians are, that's the point we're discussing.

So what is it with God and his whores? OK, prostitution is a sin you say. Can you back that up with scripture, please. Refer to the Law of Moses. And give us a short analysis into the legal ethics and moral implications of said prostitution, in relation to the Bible.

And the slavery part is for later, I mentioned it if you want to prepare, and since prostitution is a form of slavery, only older, I'd thought I'd start there. So. First we shall deal with prostitution. You wanted me to expose the hypocrisy of the Bible, we'll start in one end. And like ATS we'll go from turd to turd exposing all the bovine manure. Like I said, it's gonna take weeks, so if you want to back out, now is the time. I certainly have better things to do than Sunday school lecturing.

originally posted by: TheConstruKctionofLight
a reply to: NavyDoc

that the crucifix is intended to be a reminder of the sacrifice and not "worshiped" an thus would not fall under the aforementioned scripture.

And yet it is a "symbol in your face" reminding you that you are nothing without the sacrifice.

Remember the quote again...pretty strong words

graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

It's a reminder. It is intended to help people remember. I don't recall ever being told one is "nothing" without the sacrificed but I was taught that it was a reminder of what Jesus went through because he loved us so much. That is the intent.

As for the strong words, certainly they are strong and, if they are to be taken strongly, then you should not have any artwork or photographs or statues of anything. Toss those family photos in the trash, my friend.

originally posted by: Nochzwei
Yes it is idolatrus to bow and pray to any graven image and is forbidden in the Bible. Why the catholics do this is beyond me.
a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Because they don't.


I grew out of the religion, but I understand well the philosophical underpinnings of the traditions and beliefs. IT may seem one way to the outsider, but the intent and belief of the believer is different than what the outsider assumes.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

OK, specific instance? How about Isaiah 23 and Tyre another one of God's whores? In these verses, God loves his whores and spoils Tyre's offspring and bless her income and produce from her prostitution:

At the end of seventy years, the LORD will visit Tyre, and she will return to her wages and will prostitute herself with all the kingdoms of the world on the face of the earth. Her merchandise and her wages will be holy to the LORD. It will not be stored or hoarded, but her merchandise will supply abundant food and fine clothing for those who dwell before the LORD. [ESV] Isaiah 23:17-18

With these examples (Hosea 1 and Isaiah 23) of how God promotes and rewards prostitution, and looking back at how you consider prostitution to be a sin: Help me here, can't you see you are calling God is a sinner here?