It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.


Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.


Help ATS via PayPal:
learn more

Whats the real value of a job?

page: 3
<< 1  2    4 >>

log in


posted on Feb, 9 2015 @ 01:25 PM
a reply to: Hoosierdaddy71

Yeah, same one you're shackled to. We're all slaves.

posted on Feb, 9 2015 @ 01:27 PM
a reply to: Yeahkeepwatchingme

According to many here, I'm the slave owner.

It's good ta be da king! Lol

posted on Feb, 9 2015 @ 01:28 PM
a reply to: Hoosierdaddy71

Don't kid yourself, you're as enslaved as the rest of us.

posted on Feb, 9 2015 @ 01:30 PM
a reply to: Yeahkeepwatchingme

Can you name a people or culture that you believe is not enslaved?

posted on Feb, 9 2015 @ 01:34 PM
a reply to: Hoosierdaddy71

Not at all lol. And believe me I've tried. Gone over it so many times in my head, wondering who is truly free. Free from the system, free from manufactured obligations and I've come to the conclusion that slavery is essentially a human condition. If it's not physical chains it's an idea, or a belief.

Even believing we're all slaves is slavery in itself, negating all hope and smashing dreams. Believing we could eventually unite and rise up to wipe out our oppressors is a prison too.

posted on Feb, 9 2015 @ 01:35 PM

originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: Edumakated

He would be fired because we cant afford mistakes.

I'm not destroying my own argument. It takes years of an apprenticeship in the unions to get to $15 an hour. The problem is these commercial jobs dont always pay the squarefootage we need to hire people to pay them more because no one can afford what it really should cost because no one is getting anymore.

You see how that trend works? You see how the trickle down economics work?

Who cares if you can't afford the mistakes? You started the thread saying that business had a moral obligation to provide jobs that paid enough so someone could have a fulfilling life. Why are you now worrying about other factors like performance, wages, etc? Again, you deconstructed your own argument and can't even see it.

posted on Feb, 9 2015 @ 01:38 PM
Most company that base pay on the task and the pay is low, there is an old adage, "You get what you pay for." If the pay is low then quality suffers. If quality suffers then so do the companies profits.

In these times, people are desperate for income and will accept the lower wages and companies know this, which doesn't speak well for what the people taking the lower wages think about themselves.

I was offered a position once with a $10 an hour pay cut after a contract changed hands. I felt insulted. I was worth more than that and declined the offer.
edit on 9-2-2015 by eManym because: (no reason given)

posted on Feb, 9 2015 @ 01:41 PM
I believe that all jobs have value. The starter jobs, the menial jobs...they should be stepping stones to better jobs. Someone has to do them, but if people new that it wouldn't be a dead end job...

Starter jobs teach you all kinds of skills, from opening checking accounts, what direct deposit is, benefits, taxes, exemptions, benefits, PTO, 401K, cash flow procedures, basics of cooking, clocking in and out, showing up for work on time, customer service...we could go on forever. The key is to master everything about that basic job and then move up...never stop moving up.

posted on Feb, 9 2015 @ 01:43 PM
a reply to: Yeahkeepwatchingme

Well the United States spends an enormous amount of its budget on social programs.

24% on social security
22% on Medicare and Medicaid
12% on safety net programs.

That 58% of the budget making sure Americans have a means of survival.

That more than cover any "moral" obligation we have to the citizens.

Especially considering the checks I wrote the state and the Feds last week. My conscious is clear.
edit on 9-2-2015 by Hoosierdaddy71 because: Link

posted on Feb, 9 2015 @ 01:50 PM
a reply to: Hoosierdaddy71

That's one of the best ways to ensnare someone. Providing for them. Make them dependent on you.

Your conscience is clear because you gave money to the system? I don't see how that works, so you were forced to give up money (wasn't voluntary payments?) to give to a system that creates the messes we see around us and you feel like you've done your part?

Not sure if that's what you meant.

posted on Feb, 9 2015 @ 01:50 PM

originally posted by: peck420
The 'real' world is the one that nature has laid out before us. That would be a world where you pull your own weight, or your own community kills you outright, or banishes you and leaves you for dead. And, that is assuming that you have already killed enough to sustain your own existence just to get to that point.

Nature shows us this, time and time again...we continue to believe that we are inherently different, or better, than nature. We aren't even close yet.

Oh, no, another believer in "Social Darwinism" that doesn't know the difference between it and "Evolution".

You do realize that the concept of "Social Darwinism" is different than the theory of "Evolution"? What you are describing is NOT "Evolution", what you are describing is "Social Darwinism". They are NOT the same thing and the terms are not interchangeable.

In actually, in the times of tribal, chiefdom and early agricultural societies, those whom were most "fierce" and took the "most risks" were either quickly killed or seriously injured during, hunts, battles or during day to day labor. In those days, those whom were neither the "most fierce" nor the "most timid" ALWAYS fathered the most offspring and lived longer than average lives. Our current society has been structured in a way to shield these imbalanced "fierce" individuals from receiving what "nature" would have normally dealt them, which is death or serious injury, due to poor decision making and underestimating "risk".

originally posted by: OrphanApology
You are making the assumption that we are actually in a free market society. We are not in a capitalistic society or a free market society.

The current corporations are simply appendages of the state. You have to think of things in terms of their relation to the state(in this case the worker's relation to state).

So as the state grows it will matter less and less how good you are at performing a task. The good workers are not rewarded as much those who are good at seeming like they are good(great skills for working in government..cough..corporations).

This early answer in the thread is absolutely correct and supports my above description of how "nature" ACTUALLY deals with risk taking individuals, versus how our current economic structure insulates them from the natural consequences they would normally face. Essentially our modern society is a form of "insurance" for the fool-hady and sociopathic.

Up to the 1940 a person could get just about any job with an 8th grade education, but today you need a BA or Masters for entry level.


Because the government & big business figured out a long time ago that populations would certainly increase over time, but due to technology advancements, the availability of jobs would not expand to meet that population growth. There is a reason they don’t want people dropping out of high school and then at the same time, encourage those high school graduates to attend junior college, then a 4 year university and finally a Masters degree or PhD. They do so because it DECREASES the amount of people looking for full-time employment at the SAME TIME, chasing after jobs in a market that CANNOT provide employment for everyone looking for, able, qualified for and willing to work.

Look at it this way, when people could get a job with an 8th grade education, they went out and did it as soon as possible (opportunity cost). Then jobs got scarcer and the minimum requirement became a high school diploma, adding 4 more years of people NOT Looking for jobs within their cohort. Then jobs got even scarcer and the minimum became a 2 or 4 year college degree, adding an additional 2-4 years of people NOT looking for jobs within their cohort. Now jobs are really scarce and may require a Masters or PHD, adding an additional 2-7 years of people NOT looking for jobs within their cohort.

Basically the way the economy has been structured TODAY, we are looking at young people within their cohort whom are NOT looking for full-time, career type, employment for 6-15 YEARS, beyond K-12, all while they finish more school!!!

This has been done ON PURPOSE, to keep the number people seeking employment lower. In 1920 after 8th grade everyone who was able, went out to look for work and typically found it, that’s simply NOT possible today under any circumstances. Easily accessed welfare will soon add another 1-3 years of people within a cohort, to those “not seeking employment”. Not to the specific detriment of society, but to continue to mask the illusion that jobs and upward mobility are still available. So, if someone gets a graduate degree and collects 1-3 years of welfare on top of than, that’s ONE less person competing for scarce jobs. The extra years of welfare are then acting in the same way to the larger economy as the increased minimum education levels for employment, with the real goal of decreasing the number of able-bodied applicants out on the job market at the same time. This cohort of people "not pursuing full-time employment" also includes those in Prison, Government pensioners/SSI and the disabled on government assistance. If everyone needed to go out and “get a job” or “start their own business” TODAY, as many “capitalists” and "entrepreneurs" suggest these days, we would all be making 0.25 cents a day.

With big business being hell bent on replacing living workers with machines, such comments as those in this post, miss a subtle point that ONLY the children of the wealthy will have the opportunity to become TRUE experts in such fields. Let me clarify, through the prior 20th century, a poor kid who studied hard could become a lawyer, engineer, accountant, even a doctor sometimes with the right combination of hard work, savings, scholarships, family support, etc, OR they simply went into the trades and learned on the job WITH pay. HOWEVER, in engineering and technician curriculum’s today, times are changing, which now favors kids whom have access to expensive software and hardware to “experiment” with and “practice” on before entering college or a particular training program. So when they finally get to college or to their first apprenticeship, those whom have had lots of free time to “play” with robotics and programming, outside of the classroom, WILL CERTAINLY outpace their less privileged peer, who flips burgers part-time, to pay rent and school expenses.

Those whom are going to be rendered jobless by automation/robotics/tech are going to be the least likely to be able to pick up these pieces in the coming era of traditional jobs destruction. Its going to IMPOSSIBLE for the poor to go back to school, get a masters degree in robotics, in full-time-only engineering programs, that strongly discourage their admitted students from taking part-time jobs, while favoring students who have both the money and free time and don’t EVER work at an unrelated job to their majors, who then buy expensive robotics hardware/software to experiment with outside of class.

They will certainly need to be supported in some manner because there are never going to be enough jobs available to pay them for the labor they are willing to provide. I can't say what that "support" may be, but the "boot straps" paradigm has long sailed off into the sunset, never to return. Too many people and not enough jobs available, permanently.

edit on 9-2-2015 by boohoo because: (no reason given)

posted on Feb, 9 2015 @ 01:50 PM
The funny thing is that the people saying that the pay low-skilled workers receive is adequate, are the same people who will look down on you and judge for being unemployed.

posted on Feb, 9 2015 @ 01:57 PM
a reply to: Yeahkeepwatchingme

So you say cut off all social programs and let the people fend for themselves?
You would have millions fewer slaves with that plan, but I'm not sure what your going to do with the bodies.

posted on Feb, 9 2015 @ 01:58 PM
a reply to: Hoosierdaddy71

I never said that.... I'm just trying to figure out how you think your conscience is clear just because you gave money for these programs.

posted on Feb, 9 2015 @ 02:03 PM
a reply to: Yeahkeepwatchingme

I agree with the systems that are in place to help people live. I also help pay for those systems. They might not be perfect but they are not totally bad. My conscious is clear because I do my part.
How much more clear can I be.

posted on Feb, 9 2015 @ 02:09 PM
a reply to: Hoosierdaddy71

Got it, so you're forced to fork over some of your money to contribute to the system and your conscience is clear. There's no point in keeping people dependent on the system through welfare when they could have a good economy providing the proper opportunities for all.

It's like a tire with so many holes you can't keep up with the patches. Instead of buying a new one, air keeps leaking out but the owner insists on patching it.....

posted on Feb, 9 2015 @ 02:28 PM
Canada did try and introduce schemes where employees would be paid according to whether their jobs were of "equal worth". One example would be hauling companies who employed both long distance truck drivers and admins. While the admins (typically single women in their 20's) worked a 9 to 5 job and could live downtown, the truckers (typically married men were families) were working 16 hour shifts driving across the continent, sleeping in their own cabs and eating at pit-stop diners. Seeing that both types of employee were essential to the running of the company, the payscale reviewers decided that both should be paid the same.

In Scandinavian countries like Norway, wage scales between different professions are extremely close, so everyone earns the same.

posted on Feb, 9 2015 @ 03:05 PM
a reply to: stormcell

I believe in free market capitalist values as well but not to the extent of destroying communities for better bottom lines.

I dont want to disincentivize innovation, but lets be honest here, you dont want to be the only rich person in your city trust me you want everyone to have a decent basic standard of living because that elevates your standard as well.

Dont be the only person in town with food because when people get hungry they will come and take your food. Make sure everyone gets a decent life and the world is a better place.

Your earning potential is not as important as having strong communities where everyone has a decent life.

posted on Feb, 9 2015 @ 04:20 PM
The only way to get free market is if all people know everything and all people have the same ability to gather resources to create something. The banks systems/monopolies and oligopolies are a direct opposite of that and are built on power pyramid where trickle up becomes the flow of power/resources.

For those who are spiritually interested. The back side is the suffering caused at the bottom will trickle up in the form of karma for those souls who put themselves on top. Putting yourself on top means taking responsibility of everything beneath. The debt a soul have created by taking advantage of the situation for material goods and power over others. Those debts are not paid in money. There is a reason spiritual people have said the most richest and most powerful will be the lowest if they even make it to the next level of being.

Be wise avoid the top.

edit on 9-2-2015 by LittleByLittle because: (no reason given)

posted on Feb, 9 2015 @ 06:41 PM
If you cannot see that the people matter much more than the money...well.....well never change...
Eliminate money and give everyone a base income which provides free medical,education based on merit, housing and food.
After which labour or contributed work of any kind brings extra credits for your desires...up to a limit....
Beyond that, one would have a surplus to distribute to the 3rd world....
Jaques Fresco has some great ideas....
Many will be satisfied with the be it....
Progress will not stop nor civilisation grind to a halt.....

new topics

<< 1  2    4 >>

log in