Jesus murdered Judas?

a reply to: NOTurTypical

The fact that Judas killed himself actually frees Jesus of being single handedly responsible for Judas dying. Could still constitute to conspiracy to murder if I turn out to be correct. This touches some quite important juridical principles. How Justitia is blindfolded. Why is Judas' suicide a sin, while killing Jesus is vital for your salvation? Whether rich or poor, powerful or slave, everyone should expect the same juridical neutrality under the law. I may be wrong here, but do I perhaps sense a slight second law here? Like one law for the Messiah and one for the accountant, huh?

You all claim Jesus was spotless, blameless and without sin. However the Gospel witness against you, for just like with all the other prophets and patriarchs, Jesus was a sinner, and the Gospel gives us several examples. That last Sunday before Pasche he reached an epic low. Not only did he commit grand theft donkey, he and his posse paraded through Jerusalem creating havoc and riots, later in the evening they forced themselves into someone's house and had a party where eventually Jesus does his magic with the bread and the substance he dips the bread into, perhaps adding murder to his curriculum. Jesus was a sinner like the rest of us.

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Take a close look at the picture below and say again that Jesus was gay. As you see the person Peter is leaning over against is a woman, and both her and Jesus carry their tunics like Roman elites:

Actually, you should learn a bit of basic Greek.

But the Gospel wasn't originally written in Greek was it?

Yes. Hebrew culture was Hellenized in the 1st century.

In another Gospel, Jesus is described as often kissing Mary Magdalen, and letting her speak up in front of his male disciples who would envy her since Jesus loved her more than he loved them.

I don't think you read the link.

"The disciple whom Jesus loved" is John, that's how he refers to himself in the gospel account. He was Jesus' best friend.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Not only did he commit grand theft donkey

Is this a joke?

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

I am still of the view that Judas was most likely the closest and most trusted member of the disciples. It fell to him to look after the money so we know he was considered utterly trustworthy.

We know Peter denied Christ, so he wasn't as strong mentally as Judas was to carry out what christ needed to be done next. If you accept Judas as a disciple and trustworthy then you have to take the next step to see that obviously he loved Christ and followed his exact instructions, which to betray someone you loved when you know the consequences would have been a terribly painful thing to do. These were committed men and I think Judas probably gets popularly portrayed (if there is anything real about christ) in the wrong way. He seems to me to be a scapegoat for the populous.

Christ followed a string line of prophesies to his death and resurrection - the messiah was ordained he merely tried to put judaism back onto what it was originally meant to be perhaps and christianity followed through - who knows.

a reply to: Shiloh7

I am still of the view that Judas was most likely the closest and most trusted member of the disciples.

No, throughout the gospel accounts the inner 3 were Peter, James and John.

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Not only did he commit grand theft donkey

Is this a joke?

No. Jesus disciples threatened an old man to give them his donkey, as Jesus had ordered them to do. Later on, they force themselves into someone's home, demanding the owner to open his house for them in their drunken spree. Read the text, it's quite clear. Also, what does the Law say about children who don't respect their parents? Oh, that's right they are more likely to die young according to Moses, or should we say God? Compare the ten commandments with Jesus words below:

If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. [ESV] Luke 14:26

Or how about:

And he answered them, “Who are my mother and my brothers?” And looking about at those who sat around him, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! For whoever does the will of God, he is my brother and sister and mother.” [ESV] Mark 3:33-35

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

I suspect we have an actual hotch potch of Eusabius's ideas and other early church fathers which is why so much of it doesn't make any sense opr something is 'lost in translation'

I do hold that the nag hammadi whjich were not polluted by catholicism or meddled with elsewhere most loikely give us the accurate account of Christ's ministry. However earlier on there was a thread that Judas was crucified instead of Christ and that I find fascinating because again, it would show how close Judas was to his master.

A big hole in the bible is Paul, simply because he was not tolerated by the actual disciples themselves who were eye witnesses and they had precious little to do with him - there was obviously a good reason which is not taken into account by the men who rule religion.

If the tales about Jesus' magical (or theurgic) powers have any basis in fact, then he must have been some sort of early chemist or alchemist. Remember, he grew up in Egypt, at least until his early teens. His education would have started there.

GIven that possibility, who can say what wonders (or horrors) such an alchemical master could create?

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
a reply to: chr0naut

Reading church history, this exact scenario seems to have been quite common among enemies of the dominating Catholic heresy, people like Arius bursting open like Judas. Below are a few things that should be mentioned:

Answers.com on What happens if you ingest baking soda

And www.nytimes.com... can report that under given circumstances baking soda ingestion can indeed rupture your stomach (underlines by me):

Few people report adverse effects from the common household chemical. But ingesting it has been associated with scattered cases of stomachs bursting, presumably because of carbon dioxide gas the compound releases into the digestive organ when it is unusually full.

"I nearly died after taking this stuff," said William Graves, who suffered a rupture through the wall of his stomach in 1979 after taking baking soda mixed in water for indigestion after a big meal. The 64-year-old resident of Bethesda, Md., who is editor of National Geographic Magazine, said that only emergency surgery saved his life and that six more operations were needed to repair the damage.

Now, Paulus, subtle as usual, says about the Lord's Meal in 1 Cor. chapter 11 verse 26: For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes. and further in verse 33: So then, my brothers, when you come together to eat, wait for one another— if anyone is hungry, let him eat at home— so that when you come together it will not be for judgment.

A confession of the Lord's death, and make sure not to eat too much of it, lest you'd suffer. Hmmm....

Please read the preceding verses and you will see that you have taken Paul's words entirely out of context. People were being gluttonous at religious services and leaving nothing for others. Paul was urging them to eat at home and deal with the communion as a religious rite rather than a free meal.

True enough, but as always with Paul, there is a bite. He's saying one thing, sounding kind and well meaning, but when you go through his words, they are dripping with venom. Check out the letter to the Philippians. He sounds like a mafia boss threatening the community to adhere to his commands. 1 Cor. has much the same writing style.

You were initially talking about Judas being killed? Now it appears you are talking about the sacrament of Communion, which is commemorative of Jesus death?

Yes, and the part when Jesus does what results in Judas killing himself and bursting open, happens during the Last Supper, the Communion. That is why the Eucharist would be a testimony of Jesus' death in the first place. The main reason he was arrested and later barely survived his execution. Like the Angel of the Waters says in Revelation about Jesus: For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and you have given them blood to drink. It is what they deserve! [ESV] Revelation 16:6

Necromancy getting out of control.

No, Judas 'bursting open' happened later. The sequence was this:

Jesus was Crucified and this occurred prior to the any of the other events. We can say this as Judas would have no specific motivation to return the money while Jesus still lived and may yet fulfill Judas' expectation that Jesus would be the conquering Messiah.

Then, Judas tried to give back the 30 pieces of silver he'd been paid for betraying Jesus.

They would not soil their hands with "blood money" (making them ritually unclean on Passover and disqualifying them from performing priestly duties).

So Judas took the money and bought a field called the Potters field (land transactions even then usually took some time).

Judas went to the field he had purchased and (it is assumed from the different accounts) hung himself.

There was subsequently a gas buildup in the corpse which burst it open, allowing his entrails to fall from the body cavity to the ground (and no doubt, further distributed by wildlife).

Definitely not at the last supper.

The last supper was the last time Jesus and Judas saw each other before the arrest. A fermenting sourdough or leaven or for that matter, it can last for days. Normal yeast has a grow factor of ca 1, meaning it potentially doubles in size. May I remind you that when the yeast is introduced into the belly and intestines, it will spread and just about everything in your tummy would start to grow. Fats and liqueur will typically retard the fermenting process, but if the yeast has is already entered the system, luck and miracle may be your only friends.

ETA: Check out this clip about yeast and water. Notice the bottle with body tempereature, and remember that the foam here doesn't account for all the CO2 that escaped, inside your intestines, all this CO2 and alcohol vapour is trapped within a closed system, leaving the patient "roaring like a lion...."

I drink beer. I have made some home brew myself. It contained live yeast. I know because I put it in and it causes the fermentation. Unfermented beer is no fun.

Neither I, nor anyone I have ever known, has ever exploded from drinking beer with live yeast even when drinking far too much of it.

The bible is a political instrument put together to strenghten political power.
it's most certainly not the word of God.
Just look at some of the stories, they dont make sense.
Lot was a good man, but offered his virgin daughters up for gang rape? then got drunk and slept wit them???
Abraham cant have children with his wife, so rapes her handmaiden so give him a son, then when his wife does get pregnant forces the handmaiden and his son out into the desert to die? one of the great men of the bible?
The murder of 1000's of innocent children to prove a point.
Leviticus itself, is just reason after reason to kill people.

The fact is Jesus needed ot be betrayed for the story to work.
If the story was true he is just a stooge for the set up of Jesus's death.

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Take a close look at the picture below and say again that Jesus was gay. As you see the person Peter is leaning over against is a woman, and both her and Jesus carry their tunics like Roman elites:

Actually, you should learn a bit of basic Greek.

But the Gospel wasn't originally written in Greek was it? Besides, Mary and her brother Lazarus are the only two persons in the "Gospel of John" whom Jesus loves in this way. When a married couple love eachother and care for eachother till death, is that erotic love? Last time I checked marriage is one of the best contraceptives. The love involved in being married is about being a family and raising children. What is so damn erotic about that? In another Gospel, Jesus is described as often kissing Mary Magdalen, and letting her speak up in front of his male disciples who would envy her since Jesus loved her more than he loved them.

The Gospels were originally written in Greek.

The love between a married couple was considered sexual and always described using the word eros. Even if they were celibate, they still would have used the word eros.

The fact that the word eros was not used indicated that Jesus and John were not a couple or having sex.

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

«the disciple whom Jesus loved»

That was John ^. Mary Magdeline was not one of the 12 disciples.

Now what exactly did Jesus dip his morsel into before giving it to Judas?

Wine.

Take a close look at the picture below and say again that Jesus was gay. As you can clearly see, the person Peter is leaning over against and whom Jesus loved-- is a woman, and both her and Jesus, and even Judas, carry their tunics like Roman elites:

That is a painting done hundreds of years after the last supper. It isnt a photograph of it.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

You stated in another thread that Jesus was not historical, a fiction. In that thread you stated that there was an absence of contemporary documentation that proved this.

Please explain how a non existent character can commit murder?

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

First things first - I don't care about christian theology.

However, I bake a lot of bread. Both as a hobby and, on more than a few occasions, as a livlihood. So, let me tell you about yeast.

First off, yeast is an organism, not a chemical. And like most organisms, it doesn't do real well in that gurgling pouch of hydrochloric acid we call a stomach. Yeasts are generally acid-loving, but even they have limits. If you have low stomach acids, caused by a fondness for eating tums, or having just eaten a lot of stuff, sure, yeast will drow for a little while. and you'll get a case of burps. At the absolute worst you'll vomit froth, like what happens if you chug a soda and then go jogging. This is because yeast is slow-acting. its carbon dioxide production is a result of digestion and reproduction among yeast cells. it takes time for them to get to work, even more in a hostile environment.

Second, Jesus would not have had pure yeasts in the first place. Nobody did, until the 19th century. Prior to that, yeasts for baking and brewing effectively lived in 'gardens" of fermented slurry that contained yeasts, bacteria, protists, and other assorted interesting flora. Certain strains that were deemed good for breast were kept on hand through use of starters, ferments, old doughs, and the like.

So, could Jesus have, in theory, dunked the bread into some sort of fermented leavening goop? Sure. it would be a really weird thing to do, however, and given the way these things smell, pretty obvious... and after seeing a dude with a beard nom down on a chunk of bread covered i fermented flour paste, I kind of doubt the Last supper was much of a hit. Ew.

Would this have kileld judas? well, if the starter were contaminated with some sort of unwanted germ like listeria or e. coli, maybe. But germ theory was a long, long way off, so even if that were the plan, Jesus wouldn't have actually known.

So what about baking soda? Yes, unlike yeast, it would cause an immediate chemical reaction which could prove dangerous, especially on a full stomach... but most likely not. Again, it would most likely cause belching, maybe vomiting, and, if left in there, a very unpleasant visit to the latrine the next morning. And the amount of the stuff you would have to eat for this effect is pretty large - certainly more than could be gathered up by any "morsel of bread." And I assure you, Judas would have been completely aware if he had just popped baking soda into his mouth. it has... let's call it a 'distinctive" flavor. As in, I'm starting to salivate and gag a little just typing about it.

So did Jesus kill Judas with extra leavening? No, because it's pretty much impossible to achieve. instead, it runs as chr0naut says; Judas hangs himself. He swells up due to intestinal gasses, just like roadkill does... and eventually, his body would rupture (likely with the help of local vultures, who are always eager to expedite the process)

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

No. Jesus disciples threatened an old man to give them his donkey, as Jesus had ordered them to do.

Source?

Later on, they force themselves into someone's home, demanding the owner to open his house for them in their drunken spree.

Source?

What I find highly amusing to critics of posts like these is that they try to rationalise how or why it couldn't happen, yet readily accept that Jesus turned water into wine, or raised Lazarus from the dead, divided a small amount of fish and bread to feed thousands.

Oh, the irony of it all. If this guy could do all this, he could have made the bread cause Judas to be suicidal, or turned it to poison, or anything.

I have long since lost my faith in the supernatural aspects of the bible, so it all seems silly to me anyway...it's just so amusing to see some people try to use science to disprove possible scenarios and actions of a supernatural, almost all-powerful being.

This is old news, this has been proven wrong by so many people, bicarb soda.
Everyone knows it was mentos and diet cola.

originally posted by: DeadSeraph
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Don't you ever get tired of these threads?

What is it you have against the God of the Christians, specifically? You can never seem to nail it down. One day it's Paul claiming Jesus is Satan, the next it's Jesus murdering Judas. You are one of the most pathetic assassins of the truth I have ever seen.

You literally have nothing to say.

Keep it up, champ.

Speaking of having nothing to say. You made zero effort to debunk the OP's claims here and instead opted to use your rant against the OP's general opinions as some sort of valid debunking. That is an ad hominem fallacy.

a reply to: SlapMonkey

What I find highly amusing to critics of posts like these is that they try to rationalise how or why it couldn't happen, yet readily accept that Jesus turned water into wine, or raised Lazarus from the dead, divided a small amount of fish and bread to feed thousands.

Because OP's or theories like this are purely arbitrary conjecture. The account in the Bible are not, one either believes what the narrative states or they don't. It's a huge waste of time to debate someone who rests their entire argument on arbitrary conjectures, logically speaking.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Speaking of having nothing to say. You made zero effort to debunk the OP's claims here and instead opted to use your rant against the OP's general opinions as some sort of valid debunking. That is an ad hominem fallacy.

Well, let's talk about fallacies then... OP's premise is based on arbitrary conjecture, nothing from the text itself. So if we want to hold people to the fire of rational thought and logic then the OP's argument is irrelevant. In debate arbitrariness it not allowed.