Do Women Find It Difficult Communicating Intellectually?

a reply to: Bluesma

TLDR is Internet slang for Too Long, Didn't Read.

It was too good of a line to not say it, definitely not the point of my post
(/:

originally posted by: Eunuchorn
a reply to: Bluesma

TLDR is Internet slang for Too Long, Didn't Read.

It was too good of a line to not say it, definitely not the point of my post
(/:

I tried to respond on the point of your post, I couldn't help asking about the first line though (and I acknowledge it is TL).

I think it is sad if relationships, in the US, have become so much based in materialism and this capitalistc type of thinking.
But it is kind of part of my view that we went too far into our values on Individuality, independence, objectivism- masculine or Yang qualities. Often refered to as "paternalism".

I am not a feminist, however, and don't consider these as "bad" only that they are most effective if balanced with a similar value on collectivism, interdependance, relativity....

I think some good ol' fashioned egalitarianism would go a long way in fixing many of the worlds problems. Though, the concept has become an oxymoron; humans caring about humans? Good luck with that.

originally posted by: Eunuchorn
humans caring about humans? Good luck with that.

It happens elsewhere in the world. Egotism is not an inherent behavior/thought pattern, it is learned and conditioned.

originally posted by: Bluesma

originally posted by: Eunuchorn
humans caring about humans? Good luck with that.

It happens elsewhere in the world. Egotism is not an inherent behavior/thought pattern, it is learned and conditioned.

Maybe, but I find that long term conditioning is widespread & deeply ingrained in most people. I'm a huge proponent of ego destruction:
web.photodex.com...

a reply to: Eunuchorn

I don't really feel ego destruction to be such an important thing (though it opens the way for growth, I think if you destroy your ego, another one just forms....).
But a realistic ego, which recognizes other as well, can be very efficient!

I define ego as the incarnation of value based on your perceptions of materialism. The only reason people think they're better than others is because of the generational conditioning that is a byproduct of wealth disparity, dating back to ancient Sumerian kings, if not before.

To even pose the question "do women have trouble communicating intellectually" is just an example of the short term view of long term conditioned ego.

Communicate intellectually about what? Modern society/reality/materialism/pop culture.

In my opinion, anyone who lives day to day & worries about trivial matters (ie anything that happens within a 100 year period) is incapable of communicating intellectually.

Our world & human nature has been broken for a very long time & the modern "relationship" proves it.

Threatening infidelity to put a stop on all requests for emotional sharing...

I keep thinking about that. That is using the knowledge of a persons personal fears against them.

A man who knows his mate has a deep fear of infidelity, and he actually uses that as leverage, to squirm out of emotional risk taking...
Don't ask me to do that, because I am afraid you'll do to me what I am doing to you right now...

Thank god not all men are like that. Nor all women.

a reply to: Bluesma

I've never understood infidelity; I've never met a woman I felt enough of a connection with to sleep with more than once, much less having 2 or more long term sexual partners over the same period of time.

originally posted by: Eunuchorn
I define ego as the incarnation of value based on your perceptions of materialism. The only reason people think they're better than others is because of the generational conditioning that is a byproduct of wealth disparity, dating back to ancient Sumerian kings, if not before.

Really..feudalism...a royal system?? Royalty...does Hollywood and the media push this on us as well..today..through materialism?? The Cinderella complex...et al??

To even pose the question "do women have trouble communicating intellectually" is just an example of the short term view of long term conditioned ego.

Communicate intellectually about what? Modern society/reality/materialism/pop culture.

LOL LOL LOL..I am somewhat in agreement here. Who is dancing with whom?? for males..NASCAR, NBA, NFL and other gods of sports and all the baggage which goes with it..a thick, phony, and as artificial as with women.

In my opinion, anyone who lives day to day & worries about trivial matters (ie anything that happens within a 100 year period) is incapable of communicating intellectually.

Our world & human nature has been broken for a very long time & the modern "relationship" proves it.

Not everyone is in this fix..though they can be difficult to find in a social structure so artificial as much of ours today.

A jewel can be rare and difficult to find...in olden times as well as today. I often like to say that good times have ruined us...male and female both.

Orangetom

originally posted by: Bluesma
Threatening infidelity to put a stop on all requests for emotional sharing...

I keep thinking about that. That is using the knowledge of a persons personal fears against them.

A man who knows his mate has a deep fear of infidelity, and he actually uses that as leverage, to squirm out of emotional risk taking...
Don't ask me to do that, because I am afraid you'll do to me what I am doing to you right now...

Thank god not all men are like that. Nor all women.

Bluesma,

I have my own difficulty with what you post above. This because many years ago...older women long ago broke me of the assumptions I had erroneously made about many woman's values and thinking.

I learned in dating older women how aggressive women can be in particularly when they are fighting the time clock..midnight Cinderella. Married or not married. This was a shock to my ignorance about many things.

I learned to ask a simple question about the blame game...

If all these men are fooling around..infidelity....with whom are they fooling around??? Combine this with the dogma of " No one sees what we do" and you see some interesting things for which previously one was ignorant.

When you learn finally that there is no oil shortage out here...no commodity in short supply...in the marketplace...

This frees one to look for a commodity outside of only sex and sexuality in women. Now you have a real search going on...for a rare and valuable commodity in the marketplace.


For when the biology runs out and sex is not valuable..what commodity does a woman have to offer in the marketplace against the competition...sex???

This is why I have little use for a womans sexual insecurities. Because I know her biology will run out with time...then what does she have or know with which to fall back upon??? Maintenance costs???
What commodity does she have to fall back on when the clock strikes Midnight Cinderella???? What does she really know about life???

This is why it is Peace..not Piece.

You can also apply this to a male as well...for at a certain point his clock begins to run out as well. And running eternal touchdowns is not Peaceful...

I have told a number of women that I am not interested in their insecurities. I want a secure woman. Most haven't a clue...children or not..they only seem to see through their prism's.



Eunuchorn posted...

a reply to: Bluesma

I've never understood infidelity; I've never met a woman I felt enough of a connection with to sleep with more than once, much less having 2 or more long term sexual partners over the same period of time.

Wow!!!!

Orangetom

Communicating intellectually...define please...what this entails?

originally posted by: orangetom1999


If all these men are fooling around..infidelity....with whom are they fooling around??? Combine this with the dogma of " No one sees what we do" and you see some interesting things for which previously one was ignorant.

When you learn finally that there is no oil shortage out here...no commodity in short supply...in the marketplace...
This frees one to look for a commodity outside of only sex and sexuality in women. Now you have a real search going on...for a rare and valuable commodity in the marketplace.

Women KNOW there is no shortage out there, that is the reason young women worry about fidelity.

Saying "You only come to me for sex" is not a threat... correct me if I am wrong, it sounds as if you are saying that is the same as saying , "I will not have sex with you anymore if you do not do what I am asking of you." (that is the only way I can make any sense out of your responses)

In that statement, there is no such threat. It asks for other types of sharing as well as intercourse.
The freedom is there, so why limit the exploration of relation to only sex?

Sex is not a commodity in a relationship- women like sex as much as men. They don't "give" it to men, sexual pleasure is shared.

For when the biology runs out and sex is not valuable..what commodity does a woman have to offer in the marketplace against the competition...sex???

You'd have to be willing to explore further than sex to find that out, wouldn't you? That is what a woman who asks for emotional sharing is proposing.

This is why I have little use for a womans sexual insecurities. Because I know her biology will run out with time...then what does she have or know with which to fall back upon??? Maintenance costs???
What commodity does she have to fall back on when the clock strikes Midnight Cinderella???? What does she really know about life???

There is a lot more to a woman than sex, and a woman past the midnight point can know a LOT about life, and have a lot of value. But for you to discover that, you have to be willing to explore her being beyond the physical.

The insecurity about sex that is common amongst young women is a rational desire to be working on discovering those other aspects of relation with a man, without him become distracted by the physical levels and unwilling to go further.
Relationship- trust, respect, is built over time. It doesn't happen overnight. Just like building a house- sex may be the foundation you start with (the most superficial level) but having sex with many at the same time is like laying foundations, or exterior walls, everywhere, and never continuing the interior construction. (makes me think of some parts of Mexico and Tunisia I have seen... ).

Peace becomes possible if one sticks to their project over time.

In any case, the fear that this relationship will stagnate and die before ever maturing is an emotional fear, and you pointed out that women are likely to use knowledge of a man's internals fears and insecurities as "leverage" is rather hypocritical, if this is what you advocate.

You can also apply this to a male as well...for at a certain point his clock begins to run out as well. And running eternal touchdowns is not Peaceful...

But a secure relationship made of trust, respect, and recognition of each others value as a soul doesn't happen overnight, and it takes effort. You want peace without effort? You want a ready built relationship, you just bring your bags in and place them on that floor, and be secure in that protection... without having to build anything?

I have told a number of women that I am not interested in their insecurities. I want a secure woman. Most haven't a clue...children or not..they only seem to see through their prism's.

That sounds like, "I just want a momma, whose womb will suck me back in". That is not any better than the woman who is looking for a daddy that will take her in his arms and shut out all challenge and threat in the world, and she doesn't have to make any effort to make that happen.

In a universal sense, there's no right or wrong to relationships, I think- if she can find a daddy who is willing, than a man who wants that can certainly find a mommy who is willing.
The problems only arise when the little girl who doesn't want to make any effort
meets the little boy who doesn't want to make any effort.
Then they are both resentful, bitter and feeling deprived.

originally posted by: Eunuchorn
a reply to: Bluesma

I've never understood infidelity; I've never met a woman I felt enough of a connection with to sleep with more than once, much less having 2 or more long term sexual partners over the same period of time.

The concern about fidelity is because many people, ( not only women) have a desire to create a stable relationship with substance- one of trust, respect and deep knowledge of one another.

This takes time, effort, attention. It requires getting to know and trust each other on various levels- physical, emotional, intellectual. Spreading one's energy to many "projects" at a time usually means sufficient attention and energy is not available for the construction of any of them.

As long as you are honest with the women you sleep with only once, and let them know you have no interest in building a relationship, then it shouldn't be a problem.

I personally feel that construction of such a strong relationship was probably the most valuable thing I ever accomplished in this life. But that is just me, and probably why I can understand why other young people desire that so strongly too.

originally posted by: orangetom1999

This is why I have little use for a womans sexual insecurities.

Obviously you do have use for her sexual insecurities - you use it as leverage against her requests for getting to know each other emotionally and intellectually.

a reply to: Bluesma

Women KNOW there is no shortage out there, that is the reason young women worry about fidelity.

LOL LOL LOL...this does not explain why so many desire to play the shortage card...based on a mans ignorance. NOt a good basis for trust. Much like today's crop of politicians. Not all women mind you ..but a noticeable number.

There is a lot more to a woman than sex, and a woman past the midnight point can know a LOT about life, and have a lot of value. But for you to discover that, you have to be willing to explore her being beyond the physical.

Oh I quite agree with you here...which I why I tended towards older women. Though not all of them fit into this category.

There were a number of them offering only sex before the biology ran out to get the keys to the kingdom without risk and without Work. To get life locked in and locked down..by entitlement...by marriage. My friend across the river married one just like that ...and an older woman on whom I gave up on when I realized she was not the product advertised. She proceeded quickly to make him miserable as well as expendable and disposable because he never learned to not "Run Touchdowns.." I tried to tell him but he did not at the time seem want to learn. She was a "Hunter Gatherer."
He, like me, was under the illusion that only men hunt and gather. Not anymore he is not.

Now today he has learned this lesson quite well..and does not run touchdowns in the manner he used to do. And he has picked his women much more wisely..and not for sex. He too realizes that there is no "Oil Shortage" out there.
He, like me, takes serious risks for his monies....being an electrician.

There is a shortage of women with real intrinsic value to offer a man..children or not...and particularly here in American.

The insecurity about sex that is common amongst young women is a rational desire to be working on discovering those other aspects of relation with a man, without him become distracted by the physical levels and unwilling to go further.
Relationship- trust, respect, is built over time. It doesn't happen overnight. Just like building a house- sex may be the foundation you start with (the most superficial level) but having sex with many at the same time is like laying foundations, or exterior walls, everywhere, and never continuing the interior construction. (makes me think of some parts of Mexico and Tunisia I have seen... ).

Agree these things are built over time..and not between commercial interruptions. Sex is not the foundation with which I choose to begin. Sex with many at the same time is also a losing past time..because it too is high maintenance for little return in the intrinsic value arena one gets. Also why most younger women do not interest me.

In any case, the fear that this relationship will stagnate and die before ever maturing is an emotional fear, and you pointed out that women are likely to use knowledge of a man's internals fears and insecurities as "leverage" is rather hypocritical, if this is what you advocate.

I advocated that many women I have met are not accustomed to a man who knows how to handle their points about sex and oil shortage. It was obvious that they were quite stunned by this realization. They were not accustomed to such a reaction from a man. It was also obvious that they believed me and the males I had taught .and did not want to press the issue any further. I was not going to run that touchdown for them. You and many women to whom I have spoken about it tend to think it is hypocritical...but do not notice their/the method of operation.

Peace becomes possible if one sticks to their project over time.

It is not unreasonable for a man to ask what he is getting from a woman and for which he does not want to get from any other woman...not just sex. This is the question every man should know to ask himself..at any age. ...but do not.

What he is getting which is timeless... and of real intrinsic value.

But a secure relationship made of trust, respect, and recognition of each others value as a soul doesn't happen overnight, and it takes effort. You want peace without effort? You want a ready built relationship, you just bring your bags in and place them on that floor, and be secure in that protection... without having to build anything?

Hold on here now...did we not just previously discuss that most women want a man ready made..not one they have to make themselves??? What was that about security??? RISKS??? Children or not???

That sounds like, "I just want a momma, whose womb will suck me back in". That is not any better than the woman who is looking for a daddy that will take her in his arms and shut out all challenge and threat in the world, and she doesn't have to make any effort to make that happen.

LOL LOL LOL...good grief!! I can get that without marrying a woman. Do you not realize this?? Agree ..it is not better than the woman looking for a daddy. I am also not looking to be a woman's daddy. What are you thinking here??

The problems only arise when the little girl who doesn't want to make any effort
meets the little boy who doesn't want to make any effort.
Then they are both resentful, bitter and feeling deprived.

That is exactly what you have going on out here...a lot of women who think they have grown up..and a lot of males who have no idea they have not grown up nor have all the cards in the deck...both of them. And the results show.

A lot of people with television and movie educations in non reality and trying to fit the puzzle pieces together without work and without risks...but lots of entitlement beliefs.


Thanks,
Orangetom

originally posted by: Bluesma

originally posted by: orangetom1999

This is why I have little use for a womans sexual insecurities.

Obviously you do have use for her sexual insecurities - you use it as leverage against her requests for getting to know each other emotionally and intellectually.

LOL LOL LOL LOL...sex...sexuality...sexual identity...sexual politics.

I began to piece something together ..years ago ..not by the help of males..but by females. By the graciousness of an older woman's reply to a question I had asked about why so many women dress like an advertising bill board to go out on Friday and Saturday nights.

She very skillfully and correctly replied..."What makes you think they are only dressing for the men out here??"

Now at first ..I was angered...until I began the long and difficult trail to opening my eyes and pulling my head out of my backside on this...my blinders.

She was correct...and I remember her for the lasting effect she had on me...may she rest in Peace.

What she told me ..I came to realize..was to deep for the average male out here to fathom. He is to busy running touchdowns to ask what is wrong with the game being played.

I am so proud of my friend across the river. The high maintenance older woman he married passed away. He now has a woman worth her weight in gold.. a real help meet..not a help yourself meet. He knows he has a woman with real intrinsic value and I' ve never seen him more content/happy. What they both want is not to grow olde alone...and Peace..not just Piece. I am happy for them...both.

Thanks,
Orangetom

a reply to: orangetom1999

lol... what, pray tell, does it mean to "make" a man... I prefer mine already made since I don't plan on raising any children...I don't recommend that at all.

If a person isn't a grown up adult whom you can like as well as live with when you meet them one may as well keep on walking.. you do not "create" the perfect partner... you meet people you are compatible with, because people don't change for the better and no one can create another person outside of bearing and rearing children..and even then its a crap shoot how well they turn out!

people are who they are, if you cannot love and respect that person you see in front of you then there is no point even continuing a conversation with them..

PS. sex doesn't end just because a woman gets older... nor is it sex verses intelligence, it is nice to have both...

originally posted by: orangetom1999


.this does not explain why so many desire to play the shortage card...based on a mans ignorance.

I tried to guess what this "playing the shortage card" is referring to, but I guess I don't get it.
I wondered if you weren't just misinterpreting this "You only come to me for one thing" as some sort of indirect threat of refusing sex, but you haven't confirmed nor corrected this guess. So I can't pretend to understand the ideas you are trying to communicate using that terminology.

an older woman on whom I gave up on when I realized she was not the product advertised.

Oh goodness, I will be honest, I have such a repulsive reaction to this language, of women being "products advertised" or having "market value" and love being a "commodity". It is making me think American capitalism has absolutely destroyed human relations and emotions! So I will try to communicate you using these sorts of terms, and try to be as respectful as possible at the same time. Please try to be comprehensive if I sometimes slip and sound irritated -it is the language that provokes, not you personally.

There is a shortage of women with real intrinsic value to offer a man..children or not...and particularly here in America

.

A smart investor will investigate and analyze the intrinsic value of securities in hopes of finding investments where the true value of the investment exceeds its current market value.
In human terms, that might be delving deeper into the personality of the other, in order to discern potentials not yet manifested in tangible ways. Dialogue.

Men and women "invest" themselves in a joint venture - partners in a business must communicate, and invest both their thoughts and emotions into the project, and agree on ways to combine their capital, as well as combine their individual skills and knowledge.

Using this metaphor, how do you see the demand for dialogue as "playing the oil shortage card"?

Sex with many at the same time is also a losing past time..because it too is high maintenance for little return in the intrinsic value arena one gets. Also why most younger women do not interest me.

I do not get the "younger women" part - the women you refer to, asking for dialogue, are they not young? Obviously, they wish for their mate to dive and discover their intrinsic value- to find what kind of gifts they can offer in terms of comfort, security, emotional support.

Both young men and young women discover their intrinsic value through relations. We discover ourselves WITH the other. Men "false advertise" as much as women. When they meet a woman they exaggerate their strengths and their achievements.
Both genders can be subject to lack of self awareness- of realistic perception of their potentials, their strengths, their weaknesses and their particular skills. That doesn't necessarily mean they purposely attempt to deceive - it is a common part of being human.

The effective investor looks deeper than the self value proposal offered, to see the real value (it might be more or less than they realize yet, it may be just different than they realize yet! They look for the hidden values, and they compare those with the ideals, values and dreams of the individual (-which is usually what the self value proposal is more indicative of - what they want to be ) and evaluate the compatability between them, and weigh them against the potential risks and challenges.

This sounds very cold and calculating, because we're using the capitalist-talk. But it is just rather intuitive and natural.
Relationships are this to me - two people agreeing to support and aid each other to become what each wants to be and to make each ones dreams come true.

I don't know, in my own experience, it seems like, yes, the best men and women you can find (the most realistic self aware, the most secure, the most balanced) are usually older, and - in a long term secure relationship. "All the best ones are married" and all that. Because it is usually THROUGH and because of that long term relationship that they became so!!!

That stage of a relationship is where you usually find the couples happy, secure, as independant as they are interdependant, and having open marriages or some other form of spoken or unspoken acceptance of sexual play outside the relationship. Because they invested, they were patient with each other, they got through struggles together, and took risks together. THAT is where the pay off comes. That is where you have peace, as well as fun. Security as well as freedom.

A ready-made, or "off the rack" mate will never be a customized one, and shouldn't be expected to be.

a reply to: Bluesma

An additional clarification (because recently members have expressed a dislike of editting posts to add stuff)

All this might seem, at first glance, to be off topic, but it is not. It is all within the context of my positions that the question of "do women find it difficult to communicate intellectually?" as being parallel with the often voiced, "do men find it difficult to communicate emotionally?"

My assertion being that through relationships, they get in touch with their intellectual or emotional parts of themselves, and get better at expressing them. Trust, respect, confidence, all encourages this expression, first within the security of the relationship, then expanding outward, further and with more of the world.