It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Important -- how to in 10 sec shut up a ProVaccine person

page: 6
24
<< 3  4  5    7  8  9 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Feb, 8 2015 @ 10:49 AM
link   

originally posted by: VictorVonDoom

I don't think you're going to silence the pro-vaccine crowd with any sort of rational argument.

I haven't seen any yet. Every "rational" anti-vax argument is either based on incorrect premises or makes an unwarranted leap of logic. For example:

1. Vaccines cause autism.
2. We should not make people autistic.
3. Therefore, we should not vaccinate.

That's a perfectly logical argument, but the first premise is incorrect, so the entire chain of reasoning fails. Another example:

1. I am not vaccinated, but all other people are.
2. Vaccinations are effective.
3. Therefore, my lack of vaccination does not endanger anyone else.

There are two problems with this. The first is in statement 1. We know "all other people are vaccinated" is not a true statement. There are people (some on this thread) for whom vaccination is medically contraindicated, there are people (some on this thread) who choose not to vaccinate, and there are people too young to be vaccinated. We also know statement 2 is not true in all cases. There are people whose immunity has waned, and there are people who did not respond to their vaccination. The syllogism should read,

1. I am not vaccinated, but some other people are.
2. Some vaccinations are effective.
3. Therefore, my lack of vaccination does not endanger some people.

It is trivial to show that a lack of vaccination does endanger others. Once that's accepted, we're simply arguing about how much danger is acceptable, and how we as a society deal with it. Here's another argument made by anti-vaxers:

1. I had [measles/mumps/rubella/chickenpox/etc.] as a child.
2. I recovered fully.
3. Therefore, we should not vaccinate against [those diseases].

The problem here is generalizing from statement 2 to the entire population. Just because the person making the argument recovered, does not mean everyone recovered without complication. We know some people had serious complications, and some people died. Moreover, it completely ignores the personal and economic harm the disease inflicted on their family members while they were sick and recovering from the illness. It is a fairly solipsistic way of looking at disease.

The only arguments for which I have any sympathy at all are the philosophical ones based on individual rights. And every one of those is still an argument for an individual right to act on one of the irrational arguments above.




posted on Feb, 8 2015 @ 10:55 AM
link   
There is also the assumption that we should just be fine with the idea of random waves of disease sweeping through the country because almost everyone will recover from them.

Even if this were the case, in the case of most of the diseases we are talking about you are looking at having a very sick individual to take care of for upwards of a week. 3 to 5 days of basic symptoms before the rash appears in measles and then another 3 or more days with rash in which the severity spikes. How many people can afford to just miss a week or so of work for each child they may have who is not vaccinated?



posted on Feb, 8 2015 @ 10:57 AM
link   

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: rickymouse

Also, given the rapid rate of spread of this one outbreak, and the number of years we have gone without a substantial outbreak, I'd say the vaccine has been either doing its job or we have effectively managed to keep every measles infected person out of the country.



Sadly in the UK we're seeing a come back of diseases that had been wiped out thanks to anti-vaxxers not having children immunised after the false autism/MMR scare. Some like measles are even thought to now be permanent virus' as levels of unvaxxed kids hit critical points.

www.bbc.co.uk...

To the OP - If you want to play chance with your kids lives then good for you (not for them obviously) but don't do it with the lives of others, especially when you don't know basic stuff like herd immunity. Do them, yourself and others a favour by researching the area instead of making up stats.
edit on 8-2-2015 by bastion because: (no reason given)

edit on 8-2-2015 by bastion because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 8 2015 @ 11:33 AM
link   

originally posted by: PizzaAnyday505
a reply to: Chadwickus

Lol

The ultimate fail
So I should risk my kid becoming 1 in 80 with autism

So that tiny minority who got vaccinated and can still get the disease, be protected

What a logic fail


Good grief! That has been debunked. I cannot believe there are still people who spout this crap!



posted on Feb, 8 2015 @ 11:42 AM
link   

originally posted by: Elton
Apparently only 19 states allow families to opt out of vaccination requirements by claiming a "philosophical exemption," whether based on personal, moral, or religious beliefs.

Wow I'm shocked, thought you were the land of the free?!
Here in the UK not a single vaccination is compulsory, although your NHS doctor or health worker will show disapproval if you say no, it is as simple as declining the invitation.
I am truly shocked that vaccines are compulsory anywhere in the US, and y'all often call us Brits as being in a nanny state.



posted on Feb, 8 2015 @ 11:55 AM
link   
a reply to: dukeofjive696969

The propaganda surrounding Ebola was just ethnocentric bull. Ebola was a problem before the west started wetting their pants about it, not to mention it being nearly impossible to contact outside of handling bodily fluids of the infected... But measles?

Measles is airborne, measles is crazy... CRAZY contagious. It's a fundamental lack of knowledge that creates misplaced hysteria.

No, the vaccinated are not protected if there are more cases of the measles, especially since that increases the likelihood of it mutating into a virus we have no way to treat and no vaccine for.

Oh, fun fact.

Rabies has a higher mortality rate than Ebola without treatment. Hooray for vaccines!



posted on Feb, 8 2015 @ 11:56 AM
link   
a reply to: PizzaAnyday505

In your original post you imply that vaccinations are the cause of a 1 in 80 rate of diagnosis for autism. Nowhere in your source material is this claim made. So far, you have not been able to scientifically validate your claims (much like any other person who is against vaccinations).

a reply to: PizzaAnyday505

Telling people to shut up is a great way to post on a discussion board. I guess you're looking at this as a pulpit to spew your nonsense, not a place for a dialogue.

a reply to: PizzaAnyday505

But you're playing the lottery with the people's children who are either unable to be vaccinated or for whom the vaccination does not work. Who's the real jackass here? (Hint: It's you.)

Go back to the multiple times people have explained herd immunity for the benefit of you and others. In fact, here is the Simple English Wikipedia for Vaccinations. Maybe it'll be easy enough for you to comprehend.
edit on 2/8/2015 by cmdrkeenkid because: Fixing broken url tags.



posted on Feb, 8 2015 @ 12:11 PM
link   

originally posted by: grainofsand

originally posted by: Elton
Apparently only 19 states allow families to opt out of vaccination requirements by claiming a "philosophical exemption," whether based on personal, moral, or religious beliefs.

Wow I'm shocked, thought you were the land of the free?!
Here in the UK not a single vaccination is compulsory, although your NHS doctor or health worker will show disapproval if you say no, it is as simple as declining the invitation.
I am truly shocked that vaccines are compulsory anywhere in the US, and y'all often call us Brits as being in a nanny state.


People quite often (as the OP shows) do not know what's good for them.



posted on Feb, 8 2015 @ 12:24 PM
link   
A nti-vaccine megachurch hit with measles epidemic now offering free vaccinations...


Eagle Mountain International Church, about 50 miles northwest of Dallas, released a statement Tuesday that said a visitor attended a service who had been overseas and was exposed to measles.
Therefore the congregation, staff at Kenneth Copeland Ministries and the daycare center on the property were exposed through that contact



posted on Feb, 8 2015 @ 12:30 PM
link   
a reply to: NihilistSanta

RSV: 1 in 500 million mortality rate. No vaccine.
Measles: 1 in 1000 mortality rate. Vaccine preventable.

Rocket science it is not.



posted on Feb, 8 2015 @ 12:30 PM
link   
a reply to: CircularKnights

Bad parenting Plus most were to old tO have the mrr.

Also no way to prove it due to the laws I must follow.

edit on 8-2-2015 by boymonkey74 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 8 2015 @ 12:44 PM
link   
a reply to: NthOther
Yes vaccination are all about the vaccinator getting off on his raging ego.


At the end of the day I think these diseases killed many people or disabled many people and some are contageous..funny how most everyone crapped their pants during the Ebola deal. If Ebola hit the states you wouldn't believe how fast everyone would be demanding a vaccination if one were available.
Is there a mentality that these diseases are just 3rd world problems?
For the record I do not believe that all is well with big pharma or that evey vaccine is safe..for instance I definatly do not get flu shots.



posted on Feb, 8 2015 @ 12:47 PM
link   
a reply to: boymonkey74
Vaccination rates for MMR is running at about 91% for England (I don't know the rest of the UK) and while it is not compulsory there will always be some parents who say no for whatever reason. My son had every vaccine after I spent months reading for/against each of them when I had to. It's the responsibility of parents and I think I made the right choice.
I do not support compulsory vaccines though, as I've learned happens in the US, I am still shocked.



posted on Feb, 8 2015 @ 01:01 PM
link   
a reply to: grainofsand

Yeah that has shocked me also.
Land of the free indeed.



posted on Feb, 8 2015 @ 01:03 PM
link   

originally posted by: PizzaAnyday505

If you trust the modern vaccines made in US that they won't make your kid 1 in 80 that get autism then vaccinate yourself and that poor kid and shut up about me and my kid


You do know this has been proven false, and was a creation from one doctor in England that came up with all this, out of thin air on his own, to be paid as a subject matter expert in court with no correlation what so ever.

But hey, if you want to be selfish and risk your kids to nasty diseases so be it. Have fun at your Pox parties as your kids suffer through it and my kid never needs to experience that.



posted on Feb, 8 2015 @ 01:09 PM
link   
Until this vaccine BS blows over I'm done with ATS. I'm sick of reading posts from ignorant people, who think that civil rights allow them to harm society as a whole. People who have not done a modicum of their own research, but rather rely on the word of actors or politicians. I realize academic and scientific literature is likely beyond the grasp of these people, but it's no excuse to cling on to your ignorance, and it's certainly no excuse to head to forums with the sole intention of appealing to others ignorance.



posted on Feb, 8 2015 @ 01:13 PM
link   

originally posted by: GetHyped
a reply to: NihilistSanta

RSV: 1 in 500 million mortality rate. No vaccine.
Measles: 1 in 1000 mortality rate. Vaccine preventable.

Rocket science it is not.


See this post from another thread. Your numbers are inflated and are a bit biased. Please cite a source for clarification.


ATS POST

And another from the CDC

ATS POST
edit on 8-2-2015 by NihilistSanta because: (no reason given)

edit on 8-2-2015 by NihilistSanta because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 8 2015 @ 01:15 PM
link   

originally posted by: grainofsand

originally posted by: Elton
Apparently only 19 states allow families to opt out of vaccination requirements by claiming a "philosophical exemption," whether based on personal, moral, or religious beliefs.

Wow I'm shocked, thought you were the land of the free?!
Here in the UK not a single vaccination is compulsory, although your NHS doctor or health worker will show disapproval if you say no, it is as simple as declining the invitation.
I am truly shocked that vaccines are compulsory anywhere in the US, and y'all often call us Brits as being in a nanny state.


The best nannies are the ones hidden in the eyes of teddy bears.



posted on Feb, 8 2015 @ 01:15 PM
link   
Even if you don't care for the life and health of your children (90% chance of getting measles just by sitting near a measle-ridden person...!), you should care about the health of those, who have no intact anti-virulant system in their body (caused by medication, or genetics, or just some bad case of didn't-eat-enough-vegetables, which is a myth, but we are deep in myth-antvaccer-country in this thread anyway..).


You are putting those people at risk of death or harsh illness, just because you were too afraid to use medicine millions, if not billions of people on earth took and survived!

And for "Big Pharma" and moneyz... A doctor in Germany gets about 5 EUR (=7$ I guess) for a vaccination... What a generous, and easy way to get rich! Nope, it is not, of course.



posted on Feb, 8 2015 @ 01:16 PM
link   
a reply to: NihilistSanta


Incidence (annual) of Common cold: 62 million cases (NIAID); 23.6 per 100 (NHIS96); estimated 1 billion colds in the USA annually; Children get 6-10 yearly, adults 2-4 yearly; over 60's less than 1 a year.


www.rightdiagnosis.com...

1 billion cold incidences. 4,500 deaths. Do the maths.


Measles:


US and UK case-fatality rates were ∼1 per 1000 reported measles cases from the 1940s through the 1980s 3, 124, 133, 211]. During the past 13 years in the United States, the case-fatality rate has averaged 3 per 1000 reported measles cases (table 2).


jid.oxfordjournals.org...
edit on 8-2-2015 by GetHyped because: (no reason given)



new topics

top topics



 
24
<< 3  4  5    7  8  9 >>

log in

join