Important -- how to in 10 sec shut up a ProVaccine person

originally posted by: yuniorsan
a reply to: Krazysh0t

The why force for everyone to take it, if there is a chance that someone will have an adverse reaction to it. why chastise people that are concern with their family health?

It is relevant, just because it happen in Syria it doesn't mean that it could not happen anywhere, the fact is, that we are willingly introducing chemicals in our body, with no so much as a blink of the eye.

Honest, about the medicine that kills people, and just after a bunch of deaths they were taken out of the market? It must be too early but I don't find anything dishonest in pointing out that big pharma makes a lot of mistakes, and only a conditioned person will believe blindly in what they say without even questioning what the ingredients are.

So let let me help you on this...

Big Pharma is constantly making mistakes and damaging people (Accountable) , Big Pharma makes Vaccines (No Accountable) you will have to excuse me if I'm a little paranoid of what I put into my child.

Dozens killed by incorrectly placed acupuncture needles.

Acupuncture treatment is now as safe as advertised

etc

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: yuniorsan
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Well you are wrong on that, if they were completely safe, CDC would not have front page a disclaimer of some of the ingredients and the issues with them. Also, go ahead and tell those 36 families, that vaccines are completely safe. But I guess that's too much for you to research... What does tainted measles have to do? Everything, that's the whole reason I do not vaccinate because I'm not comfortable with pumping a new born with a whole bunch of ingredients that will shock her system. Why is no one talking about the 25,000 adverse effects cases, that are being recorded?

First off, by the nature of evolution and that not everyone shares the same genetics of course some people will have an adverse effect to it, but that is the case for EVERYTHING. There is nothing on the planet that you can imbibe that SOMEONE won't have a negative reaction to. That doesn't mean that vaccines are unsafe

And no, tainted medicine is irrelevant to the discussion. Especially when the medicine is in Syria (the case didn't even happen stateside...). If I posted a story about a bunch of people having adverse effects to a tainted supply of penicillin, would that mean to you that penicillin is bad? No. Well it shouldn't at least. All it says is that some unscrupulous pharmaceutical manufacturer cut some corners during the manufacturing process.

So don't tell me that I should just listen to the doctors and not do my research, because pharmas record regarding the use of deadly medications is not very good: baycol, Propoxyphene, Duract, Alosetron, Troglitazone, just to name a few.

I don't recall telling you to do anything. But it would help if you were honest about the research you were conducting instead of trying to extrapolate isolated incidents into general problems.

Hmm.. From what I've seen so far with science (and humanity in general) is that we always seem to learn new things that make the past obsolete. Many times science has proclaimed something as safe and scientifically sound, only to be proven wrong years later.

As for contaminated vaccines, science got it wrong with the old polio vaccine.

BACKGROUND:
The presence of SV40 in monkey cell cultures used in the preparation of the polio vaccine from 1955 through 1961 is well documented. Investigations have consistently demonstrated the oncogenic behavior of SV40 in animal models. Early epidemiologic studies were inadequate in demonstrating an increase in cancer incidence associated with contaminated vaccine. Recently, investigators have provided persuasive evidence that SV40 is present in human ependymomas, choroid plexus tumors, bone tumors, and mesotheliomas, however, the etiologic role of the virus in tumorigenesis has not been established.

RESULTS:
Our analysis indicates increased rates of ependymomas (37%), osteogenic sarcomas (26%), other bone tumors (34%) and mesothelioma (90%) among those in the exposed as compared to the unexposed birth cohort.
CONCLUSIONS:
These data suggest that there may be an increased incidence of certain cancers among the 98 million persons exposed to contaminated polio vaccine in the U.S.; further investigations are clearly justified.

NIH.gov - Cancer risk associated with simian virus 40 contaminated polio vaccine.

This among many other examples are why I still remain skeptical when it comes to science, especially when it involves the human body, as everyone is different, and why I respect people's choice to vaccinate or not.

originally posted by: Philippines
This among many other examples are why I still remain skeptical when it comes to science, especially when it involves the human body, as everyone is different, and why I respect people's choice to vaccinate or not.

You say while using a veritable orchestra of scientific innovations....

You know you could go back to living in a cave and collecting rain water while blaming/attributing the gods for everything?

No 'science' there...

originally posted by: Prezbo369

originally posted by: Philippines
This among many other examples are why I still remain skeptical when it comes to science, especially when it involves the human body, as everyone is different, and why I respect people's choice to vaccinate or not.

You say while using a veritable orchestra of scientific innovations....

You know you could go back to living in a cave and collecting rain water while blaming/attributing the gods for everything?

No 'science' there...

I like science, I think it is good, but for all it is... I'm not going to put my full faith in it like some religious fanatic. Science is not always 100% absolute, especially when it comes to human physiology and injection based vaccines. Everyone is different.

You could have a civil conversation as well, no science needed.

originally posted by: Philippines
I like science, I think it is good, but for all it is... I'm not going to put my full faith in it like some religious fanatic.

Faith is belief in something for no good reason, science gives very good reasons (i.e. evidence).

Science is not always 100% absolute

Find me a scientist that believes science is always 100% absolute and i'll show you a fraud.

especially when it comes to human physiology and injection based vaccines. Everyone is different.

Everyone is different and that's why every single medicine or treatment ever devised has had side effects, ranging from harmless to potentially life threatening. Part of understanding medical science is discerning the balance between potential benefits and potential dangers. Vaccines have on the whole been beneficial the the vast majority of individuals as well as civilization as a whole.

Berating medical science because it's not 100% absolute is.....ignorant.

originally posted by: yuniorsan
a reply to: Krazysh0t

The why force for everyone to take it, if there is a chance that someone will have an adverse reaction to it. why chastise people that are concern with their family health?

Because the odds of you NOT having an adverse effect outweigh the odds of you having an adverse effect by a super LARGE margin. Do you fret about the adverse effects of ibuprofen or do you just take 2-3 pills for a headache?

It is relevant, just because it happen in Syria it doesn't mean that it could not happen anywhere, the fact is, that we are willingly introducing chemicals in our body, with no so much as a blink of the eye.

So, because a medical supply in Syria (a country with FAR less pharmaceutical regulations than the US or Europe) was tainted, that means you can fear all the medicine? So that must mean you don't take any medicine at all correct? After all, any medicine has the risk of being tainted during the manufacturing process.

Honest, about the medicine that kills people, and just after a bunch of deaths they were taken out of the market? It must be too early but I don't find anything dishonest in pointing out that big pharma makes a lot of mistakes, and only a conditioned person will believe blindly in what they say without even questioning what the ingredients are.

The pharmaceutical industry isn't perfect, but that is why we have the FDA in America and the EMA in Europe. Have you by any chance studied FDA manufacturing regulations and procedures as in depth as you've studied vaccines? I'd wager no.

So let let me help you on this...

Big Pharma is constantly making mistakes and damaging people (Accountable) , Big Pharma makes Vaccines (No Accountable) you will have to excuse me if I'm a little paranoid of what I put into my child.

Actually, pharmaceutical companies ARE held accountable if they release a medicine that later turns out to be bad for you. Then that medicine is taken off the market. If it turns out that the pharmaceutical company is complicit in covering up these adverse effects, then that company will be SEVERELY penalized including being put out of business and even jail time. You should really study up on FDA regulations, your ignorance in that subject is outstanding.

a reply to: Philippines

What do you think is safer all around, going unvaccinated or being vaccinated? It looks to me like you are being selective with your science here. Picking and choosing which science is valid and which isn't.

Though one more thing, with every mistake, science gets that much better at giving a better antidote to whatever problem it is working on. So just because a bad medicine was made in the past, doesn't mean that you can write off the medicines of the present.

a reply to: Prezbo369

Check a few posts up, you will find all the information you are requesting...

a reply to: Prezbo369

Wow really, did you read the first part of the article, or you just looked for the sensationalist headline?
I quote "Eighty-six people have been accidentally killed by badly trained acupuncturists over the past 45 years, according to Britain's leading expert on alternative medicine."

Of course Acupuncture can kill, so does any operation, ER treatment, even the Flu. READ THE PART IT SAYS BADLY TRAINED ACUPUNCTURIST - Guess what a BADLY TRAINED MASSAGE THERAPIST can kill you too!!!

100,000 people die each year, due to wrongly prescribe medication, are you really that naive?

With that said, yes, I can use a 5 inch needle and inserted perpendicular into GB20 or 21, and probably will puncture the lung, but you know how do I avoid that? by using a 3 inch needle that will never reach the apex of the lung (That's what a properly trained acupuncturist will do)

you do bring a fair point, and I will say this as a warning to everyone else.
Western medicine doctors, can do acupuncture just after 6 months of training, because they do not have to do all the western medicine is required for the 4 years, but I'm afraid the 6 months is not enough for them to learn point location and point interaction, they can also do something called Dry Needling, which is just putting needles in the pain area, with out considering the meridians. both of those cases might do more harm that good. make sure that you go to a license acupuncturist.

Second link: besides the collapse lungs which I already explain above, the other main issue was dizziness... REALLY!!!

SO what would you say when the possible side effect of CELEBREX is death!!!
www.celebrex.com...

and that's just one of them...

I do appreciate the post, because it tells me what kind of individual I'm dealing with, and I can put this treat to rest.

a reply to: yuniorsan

Guess what a BADLY TRAINED MASSAGE THERAPIST can kill you too!!!

That's an understatement!!!

I can't imagine what kind of training that would be.

I think they would have had to of been accidentally taking Ninjitsu classes instead of massage therapy classes.

Just my opinion. Maybe there is a case where it happened, now that would be an interesting read.

a reply to: Grimpachi

It definitely would be an amazing reading... --- Probably holding the carotid artery to long and confusing the passing out of the patient for complete relaxation, or something along those lines...

Pointing out that "science" has an incomplete, total system, model of human physiology does not vilify the achievements of the scientific method in the past.

Nor does using any modern piece of technology assuage the concerns of those who are aware of the mistakes of the medical scientific discipline made in the past when viewed in the contextual background of said incomplete model. Or the awareness of the overarching financial impetus of the for-profit medical industry which historically, and therefore potentially, begets hasty, disreputable medicine.

Additionally, vaccine success in the past does not exonerate oneself of a healthy skepticism, and sovereignty of choice, regarding relatively young developments, logically, as they are of different composition than the successful vaccines we benefited from, and as far as we can tell, have had no connection to modern pervasive medical conditions we currently fail to understand.

Science is not an archetype, or a deity, or even an overarching model of reality and I find it odd when it is evoked and named as if it were a superhero with a face or an isolated invention. Science is a highly-structured observation method that is similar to the same observational rational that humans have had for millennium and so in some instances, is not entirely new. Part of this method involves mistakes, unfortunately, and its growth is more dependent on time and trial then on peer-review. It is the modern, yet still infantile, concrescence of modern inventions and disciplines resulting from this method that is commonly, and inaptly, labeled "science".

We need science, and we need vaccines. We also need, imo, a shift in thinking from blind skepticism/belief to a multi-disciplined, holistic, approach to the pursuit of knowledge in which a respect for both the past achievements of science and an honest admission that our understanding of many modern issues are incomplete and in a stage of on-going evolution. It is from this perspective that I find any ensconced, fanatical, adherence to either side in this debate...bizarre.

originally posted by: yuniorsan
a reply to: Prezbo369

Check a few posts up, you will find all the information you are requesting...

Umm nope, I had a look but couldn't find any links supporting your claim.

It might be there but I didn't come across it.

originally posted by: yuniorsan
a reply to: Prezbo369

Of course Acupuncture can kill, so does any operation, ER treatment, even the Flu. READ THE PART IT SAYS BADLY TRAINED ACUPUNCTURIST - Guess what a BADLY TRAINED MASSAGE THERAPIST can kill you too!!!

It's clear that the point I was making is completely beyond you so i'll make this short.

What you call 'eastern medicine' is not medicine, it's a collection of traditions and philosophies based on mysticism, and you are not a Doctor.

originally posted by: NthOther
They don't view your kids as "your" kids. They see them as society's kids, and social edict trumps your relationships with your children.

They don't want you to be able to raise your own children your own way because they think you're an idiot and can't be trusted. So they want to force you to do it in all their well-meaning sociopathic glory. It's not a "this kid is mine and that one is yours" thing to them at all. They will never understand that argument because they think you're an ignorant twit and a threat to the safety of your own children.

For the good of society. Their version of it.

I actually think the whole thing has less to do with medicine or conspiracy, and instead centers around the raging ego of the enthusiastic vaccinator.

Well I can’t say you’re wrong about government or society developing a position of “They are our kids not your’s.” , but I do think you’re picking the wrong windmill to tilt at. Controlling the educational process to create individual cogs that mesh with corporate greed determined to acquire all the wealth of civilization, would seem to worthy of opposition.


Vaccines on the other hand, like personal hygiene, offer standards that are generally good for the group as a whole. Let’s suppose some kid showed up at your kids school with lice jumping off of him, and he had a real infestation of fleas. His parents says that soap gives him a rash. Are you going to just keep giving your kid flea baths? Or are you going to demand they clean this kid up?

I think of my parent’s generation, and my grandparent’s. It was almost a certainty that some kid was going to die of disease at a young age. Do you really want to go back to those days? Look at your kids. Which one would you choose to be dead from measles, polio, smallpox, whooping cough or any other of a myriad of diseases running unchecked through the population?

originally posted by: PizzaAnyday505
I was reading one of those heated vaccine threads and wanted to post this but a guy on page 2 beat me to it.

***************************************
Something has been done... its called vaccination. If you don't want the disease, get vaccinated. What do you care if someone else would rather risk it than take the shot... you're protected.

If you trust the modern vaccines made in US that they won't make your kid 1 in 80 that get autism then vaccinate yourself and that poor kid and shut up about me and my kid

Case closed

If only ATS NLBS thought of such logic

How does heard immunity thing bother you if you and your kids are already vaccinated with your mighty vaccines

Because viruses mutate. If only half a population is immune, after a couple of years effectively no one is immune.

originally posted by: PizzaAnyday505
a reply to: Elton

You make it sound like homeschooling is a bad idea

At home my kid would learn right from wrong and would finally have the answer to question

Why does everyone hate the US

Correction: At home your kid learns what you consider to be right and wrong. What proof do you have that your beliefs are correct? What right do you have to indoctrinate a child who trusts you, into beliefs that could possibly be wrong?

All I have to say on this is why do the makers of vaccines fight to make a law that nobody can sue them for a bad vaccine. If you make a bad drug you can be sued, but if you make a bad vaccine you can't take them to court why is that not sound funny to anybody

a reply to: cloudsstar

What Is the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program? www.nvic.org...

People on both sides of the vaccine debate disgust me. Both sides pointing fingers and screaming for the other side's blood. Pro-vaxxers acting like their immunologists and anti-vaxxers acting like everyone else is lining up to be chipped. You're all ridiculous and should be ashamed of yourselves. As usual, the truth is in the middle. But by all means...keep behaving like rabid morons.

a reply to: Grimpachi

A comforting name...You do realize that HHS or DOJ pays for the claims and vaccine makers and doctors can not be found liable or be defendants in those cases? . Since 1989 they found in favor of 2500 to 3100 claims to the tune of 2.5 billion dollars. 92 million of that in attorneys fees. Some of those retroactively. All paid for by Uncle Sam. 3100 awarded claims sure seems like quite a bit though for something that is completely safe. Still a little short though if you ask me.