Why I Cannot Accept Any Religion

originally posted by: ObservingTheWorld
yes, I know, your god is the only real one

Actually all gods are the same god. Only fundamentalism works the way you describe it (Christian fundamentalism, Islamic fundamentalism, Jewish fundamentalism,...).


A Christian monk, a Muslim Sufi, a Jewish kabbalist or a Buddhist bhikkhu all know they worship the same Absolute.


All religious wars are political.

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
As humans continue to expand our awareness of the world around us, we begin to accept new belief systems that are more compatible with what we experience.

To me, religion began as a way to explain the mysterious and control early nomadic groups of people. Many of the mysteries that religion explained can now be replaced by scientific understanding.

Just because we don't know something doesn't mean that it's "God" or "magical". Someone in Jesus's time would think you were magic if you had Purel hand sanitizer. They'd probably call it "holy water" that kept people from getting sick.

When you combine the power of placebo with people placing their faith and understanding in a myth like religion, it's quite powerful indeed. It's also very comforting because it takes away any responsibility of the believer. They don't have to make sense of the world on their own, their pastor, priest or religious leader does that for them.

It diminishes one's own personal power and potential to place themselves below a messiah or religious leader. It assumes that one is not as holy or worthy of the ultimate life experience. It says, "I can only hope to be..."

Perhaps if our species survives long enough, we'll look back on our archaic religions and shake our heads and wonder why we clung to such silly ideas for so long, when instead we could have been embracing progress self-discovery.

That would be progress but the fact is if religion goes away it’s an indicator that it has served its purpose not that it was a bad idea.

Buddha use to say

“When over thee river discard the boat”

Religion is a vehicle to truth or God, so when and if one ever reaches this lofty goal

Religion is no longer needed

IMO, religion started as a celebration of life without labels. Somewhere after civilization started, it became apocalyptic. That could only mean for control.
Religion: a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects:

a reply to: nwtrucker

Instead of beliefs, opinions or faith, I hold to positions which can be swayed by what I can recognize as germane arguments.

I also disagree with folks who are totally experiential in founding and formulating their functioning structures. There are three types of reality. Yours, ours and the one that does not give a darn what you think.

I attempt to think through my biases and (due to a highly advanced anti-authority conceptions I hold to) society's consensual views to catch the edges of the whole that is screened so well from easy view.

Please note that I am not promulgating 'my correctness'. Why I don't try to do this is that the trivial concerns (to me) of others will NOT alter how I am approaching my terminus. Since it has inherent flexibility (I know I am as a dolt.) it permits me to adapt.

So if I get a call from god tomorrow, I will take the call. It COULD be important but who knows, maybe he just wants to pass the time. As a courtesy I would respond, just as long as he isn't selling screen rooms.

I've explained this in greater detail before and, indeed, this is not the place to look for sympathetic eyes.

a reply to: OpenMindedRealist

It is a curse and a burden to be whom I am. Monk illustrates it. Sometimes so do I.

It's always strange to admit to being thoroughly dwelling in the common abyss of ignorance and someone says, "So, you think you're a smart guy?" Merely because you don't want to be part of the 'norm'.

As to seeking a better and more grounded reality to dwell in, well of course I am! Why the heck not? That does not mean that I will accept folk tales, myths and the attempts of the Elites to sway me from noting historical re-tellings of complete BS.

As I said the completeness of the Universe dwells in ever more finely found gradations, statistical uncertainty and ineffable processes. Looking for the wisdom to resolve what I consider to be unresolvable here or anywhere else is a waste of time. Refining what I 'think' I am aware of is not.

It may even be useful to folks like yourself that I will talk to you. I am not crying out for assistance. I'm TELLING ALL OF YOU, there is no assistance garnered by dopey catch phrases, rituals and song. That does not mean Tibetan Bells are unpleasing. It does not mean that whirling in a circle for days and taking peyote won't alter your consciousness.

These changes in perceptions can lead to profound modifications to a person. Unless these alterations are put to the test, forging new relatively trustworthy models, who cares. Then they are just feelings. They can be of terror or divinity and I don't care. Tell me that you can certify an outcome which can only be attributed to this new you. You CAN modify me. Show the proof. My position can be tossed aside and another put in it's place.

That's because a pragmatic approach, not one based on belief, can be improved. It has no baggage that needs to be tossed out with a chunk of your soul, your being. My way you are floating above that fray.

In summary-"Oh, really!, HMMMM, OK."

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: Klassified

Hm. That kid didn't really try very hard to see his Dad again. I think I would have persisted and continued to knock on the door. But, that's just me.

True enough, but as I'm sure you already know. Parables are meant to illustrate a point. In this case, that the father was so convinced his son was dead, that even seeing him face to face didn't convince him otherwise.

a reply to: ParasuvO

Right.

If it was not for the fact that religions tell us what God to look for, or that an actual PATH exists, we would not stay in this type of reality at all.

Thing is, until you fully realize every option of thought, you will not see that the Universe is far more complex than "GOD" created all this for a purpose, and you may realize that no actual decision was made to do this, by the one you seek.

Tough I know, but we will make it possible for you to see this reality DAM SOON.

[snip] we are going to blow it so wide open it will dissolve as if it never existed.......at all.

So,... I see that you often make these drive-by comments in threads, and then you run. You rarely, if ever, respond when someone challenges you, or questions you, about one of your remarks.

I don't expect you to have any more courage now than you have had in the past, but if you can possibly summon the guts, perhaps you'd be so kind as to tell us...

Who the heck are the "WE" that you refer to?? Please be specific.

Of course when you have humans killing each other, raping each others wives, stealing everything not nailed down, beating the hell out of ones spouse, murdering children, indeed an attempt to control or curtail such behavior is a noble quest.

Also, when there is a mystery of consciousness added to the innate immorality of the human nature mentioned above what’s wrong with dealing with both issues: morality and consciousness in one unified set of metaphysical propositions…

Of course the enlightened, not the dogmatists, literalists or fundamentalists( the problem children of religion) who think religious laws are eternal (in the face of observatory evidence and logic), understand that the outer religious laws are variable and change with time and culture.

The ancient religions accepted slavery BUT MODERNITY DOESN’T; therefore “God” understands this and isn’t offended….Indeed, ancient man actually may have had a need for slavery, or he wasn’t advanced enough to understand he didn’t need it.

Also it stands to reason the Intelligence we call God understood that human consciousness in pre-modernity had to have mythology at the core of its religion; try explaining cosmic law directly to ancient humans and see how far you’d have gotten.

So today we look at the failures of individuals representing their religion and the mystery of scriptural mythology and rumble that it’s all a mess.

What is all a mess?

The human nature that religion declares is fubar, or some theory written on paper for a given time and given place?

Today we are given the opportunity to evolve without pre-modern religion, let's see how we do.

a reply to: randyvs

Maybe you do not need the ultimate truth to benefit from 'spirituality'.

a reply to: TheJourney

You still haven't apologized to Randyvs for misunderstanding him.

When he said, "one truth for all of everyone who has ever died and will die." was also inclusive of nothing after death. He never proclaimed there was anything after death.

originally posted by: nwtrucker
a reply to: TheJourney

Lots of interesting posts. But as you say, they tend to wander from the original point of the thread.

Returning to that original post, I noticed then and comment now on the fact that you use 'religion' as opposed to what many would say 'organized religion'. I'm sure that was deliberate on your part and ask for a clarification on it.

Yes, that is true that I deliberately chose religion rather than organized religion. This is because it's very easy to disagree with the notion of organized religion. Many of the truly religious in the classic sense of the word are even doing it. But what I was getting at was more subtle than the obvious pitfalls that organized religion has produced. It was focusing in on the very notion of subscribing to one particular system or person's teaching as the ultimate standard of truth, which everything else falls short of. I even mentioned the eastern religions, which I am very fond of, as demonstrated by avatar, in order to further emphasize the subtlety of what I was getting at. The very initial latching onto the idea of one system or person being the ultimate, incomparable standard which all else should be measured in terms of, and fall short of.

a reply to: randyvs

You're making an awful lot of assumptions about an unknown. Nobody knows what happens and the journey might be so bizarre that "FACTS" are just dream states in a bubble bath ;-)

originally posted by: Willtell

originally posted by: TheJourney

originally posted by: DeathSlayer
Point well taken but let me ask you a question without getting religious...... After looking around this planet and understanding that it is impossible that all life, in the air, on the ground and in the water including all plant life etc... started accidentally, by chance, or by design?

Do you believe that there is a creator....... a God?

See, this may(or may not) be an example of this semantic model thing I was talking about. Because, from my perspective it is a false dichotomy. I feel there is meaning and purpose in existence, but I feel that it is implicit within existence itself, as opposed to designed by an outside force. God is the source of all things, but is also imminent in all things. Physical reality is the outer boundary of God. Existence is a manifestation of God, rather than created by. Though you could say there is a creative intelligence which lies in the depths of all manifested objects and beings. This view puts me at odds with many, as theist vs. atheist is a widely accepted dichotomy which my views don't exactly align with. Thus the atheists see me as theistic and the theists see me as atheistic. lol.

You’re excluding Gods freedom to create; as well as our freedom to create

To me creation is not only existential to God’s being but also an attribute or matrix of life. It has its own world in a sense.

And is mysteriously wrapped up in what's known as the fall of man...

I define this as the secret behind the myth of the Garden of Eden. Indeed mixed up in this mystery is the secret of creation

SO I SAY CREATION IS A CURROPTION OF God in a sense
Or corruption is somewhat existential to creation, therefore the advent of evil

If you look at the "Eden story" from an Artificial Intelligence point of view you are absolutely correct. God didn't want his "program" to update/learn. It was meant to stay static, the way it was programmed. Once we humans allow AI to really learn and update itself, the "Eden story" will happen again …

a reply to: Willtell

Didn't Buddha say: "kill the Buddha"?

originally posted by: nOraKat
a reply to: TheJourney

You still haven't apologized to Randyvs for misunderstanding him.

When he said, "one truth for all of everyone who has ever died and will die." was also inclusive of nothing after death. He never proclaimed there was anything after death.

Please get your facts straight! The guy assumes that everybody has the same kind of experience after death. He cannot even fathom that THE TRUTH may be a human concept with zero roots in reality. Get it???

a reply to: TheJourney

Savages need strict moral laws as children need their parents' guidance. There is use for religion as there is use for a traffic light.

Maybe you've transcended that stage of evolution. Congrats :-)

originally posted by: AllIsOne
a reply to: Willtell

Didn't Buddha say: "kill the Buddha"?

If You Meet Buddha on the Road, Kill Him.

originally posted by: Itisnowagain

originally posted by: AllIsOne
a reply to: Willtell

Didn't Buddha say: "kill the Buddha"?

If You Meet Buddha on the Road, Kill Him.

That was so one wouldn’t become dependent on him. That’s the meaning of that as far as know.

Buddha didn’t want his followers to idol worship him like some religions have fallen into.

A seeker seeks the truth of reality not any kind of worship

A Sufi aphorism is thus:

A true seeker desires not paradise nor fears hell

originally posted by: AllIsOne

originally posted by: Willtell

originally posted by: TheJourney

originally posted by: DeathSlayer
Point well taken but let me ask you a question without getting religious...... After looking around this planet and understanding that it is impossible that all life, in the air, on the ground and in the water including all plant life etc... started accidentally, by chance, or by design?

Do you believe that there is a creator....... a God?

See, this may(or may not) be an example of this semantic model thing I was talking about. Because, from my perspective it is a false dichotomy. I feel there is meaning and purpose in existence, but I feel that it is implicit within existence itself, as opposed to designed by an outside force. God is the source of all things, but is also imminent in all things. Physical reality is the outer boundary of God. Existence is a manifestation of God, rather than created by. Though you could say there is a creative intelligence which lies in the depths of all manifested objects and beings. This view puts me at odds with many, as theist vs. atheist is a widely accepted dichotomy which my views don't exactly align with. Thus the atheists see me as theistic and the theists see me as atheistic. lol.

You’re excluding Gods freedom to create; as well as our freedom to create

To me creation is not only existential to God’s being but also an attribute or matrix of life. It has its own world in a sense.

And is mysteriously wrapped up in what's known as the fall of man...

I define this as the secret behind the myth of the Garden of Eden. Indeed mixed up in this mystery is the secret of creation

SO I SAY CREATION IS A CURROPTION OF God in a sense
Or corruption is somewhat existential to creation, therefore the advent of evil

If you look at the "Eden story" from an Artificial Intelligence point of view you are absolutely correct. God didn't want his "program" to update/learn. It was meant to stay static, the way it was programmed. Once we humans allow AI to really learn and update itself, the "Eden story" will happen again …

Could be…interesting possibility

But of course God knew man would fall. I say he created evil backwardly to transform energy faster.

But that’s a little too deep for this place I’m afraid.

Anyway, actually the deeper truth (not only truth because there are 7 levels of this stuff) to the matter is that the various natures (7) are, or have to be aligned…then eternity in God or as God.

The Garden of Eden is an metaphor for a part of the soul that renders to the consciousness high states of bliss…that’s where the fall took place and the corruption began.

To get back there is hard

For the serious seeker, life is a search for the Truth. I have not read the scriptures of all major faiths, but to my knowledge, Jesus Christ is the only spiritual leader who said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life." I have never heard that Muhammed, Buddha, Moses, or any Hindu sage ever claimed to BE the truth.

Christ's claim bears investigation. Maybe you have investigated it and rejected it.

Of course everyone is convinced that their own faith is the true faith. If they were not, they would not follow it.

Nothing anyone says on this Forum will convince you to follow the poster's faith because you lump religion and faith together. Until you separate the two, you will not know the Truth.