Would a space-faring civilization have some sort of space police force similar to the Jedi?

originally posted by: Kandinsky
a reply to: JadeStar

Such ideas will be quaint as we will probably be post-human by then.

Okay. In the future, all technological 'space-faring civilisations' will be post-scarcity, 'post-human' and there'll be no irrational actions or conflict whatsoever to justify laws.

How idealistic.

You see it as idealism. I see it as the natural and logical progression of outcomes and current trends, some of which reach back over 1,000 years.

It's just the trajectory we are on if one looks at the big picture and a wider view of time beyond their own life span.

And there's nothing utopian about it. It's no more utopian than if someone said 500 years ago: "In the future, i think things like scavenging for food daily will be obsolete. People will be able to eat anything they want from anywhere in the world."

To a person like you 500 years ago that would have seemed pie-in-the sky idealistic but in reality it was just the inevitable result of ongoing trends.

An economy not based on scarcity is as strange a concept to you and many other people as our current supermarkets would be to someone 500 years ago.

Scarcity and competition for resources have been all that humanity has known afterall.

To suggest we may be moving beyond scarcity to the common person seems utopian. But as our futurist friend from 500 years ago would have observed the same trends which would lead to supermarkets would not necessarily end with us. Time marches on.

Our futurist friend from 500 years ago would have been mocked by his or her peers for suggesting people might eat anything they want at any hour of the day or night just as Giordano Bruno was mocked and persecuted by people even in educated circles and eventually killed by the Catholic church who thought his suggestions of many worlds like earth orbiting other suns was ridiculous, sacrilegious and lacked "common sense".

Futurism often is at odds with "human nature" and "common sense" but such extrapolation often ends up correct.

At about the same time that we're beginning to look at transitioning beyond a scarcity based economy (for instance I live in a city with an actual asteroid mining company, Planetary Resources) we are also on the verge of unleashing transformative technologies which will re-define what it means to be human and that is why I suspect this may be the natural order of things in the galaxy.

It would not shock me if most of the aliens who can travel the stars are post-biological for a number of very solid reasons.

As I said, we astronomers see no evidence of grand space battles, death stars and the like. However I suspect when we have technology capable of imaging the fine details of exoplanets with resolution down to the size of a small car that we may find plenty of necro-worlds. Planets which killed themselves through nuclear, biological or chemical warfare. Or perhaps through environmental collapse. I brought this topic up when I had lunch with Seth Shostak from the SETI Institute and he agreed.

And on the other side of that abyss I suspect that we'll also see planets of endless wonders and marvels from old civilizations which escaped "The Great FIlter".

If I am right, perhaps humanity will as well.

originally posted by: infinityorder
At this pace, this conversation will be relevant when we reach the stars 800,000,000 million years from now.

Try 800 years instead.

And probably sooner than that.

a reply to: JadeStar

And with that

And there's nothing utopian about it. It's no more utopian than if someone said 500 years ago: "In the future, i think things like scavenging for food daily will be obsolete. People will be able to eat anything they want from anywhere in the world."

You killed your own argument.
"Oh I am the only one who has the right answers." and then not knowing how people around 1515 already had almost world-spanning trading routes, is just why nobody will ever say you are right...

[SNIP]

originally posted by: Shamrock6
a reply to: JadeStar

Ahhh okay. So instead of saying you know it to be an incorrect quote, we do the "source that now" song and dance.

How very quaint and human

Again, if you or anyone else allege Carl Sagan said something which I know to be incorrect then it is your responsibility not mine to source your quote when prompted.

It's common courtesy.

originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: JadeStar

And with that

And there's nothing utopian about it. It's no more utopian than if someone said 500 years ago: "In the future, i think things like scavenging for food daily will be obsolete. People will be able to eat anything they want from anywhere in the world."

You killed your own argument.
"Oh I am the only one who has the right answers." and then not knowing how people around 1515 already had almost world-spanning trading routes, is just why nobody will ever say you are right...

[SNIP]

I wasn't talking about trade routes. I was talking about 24 hour supermarkets.

Point lost and I am done communicating with you as you've been abusive.

a reply to: JadeStar

To a person like you 500 years ago that would have seemed pie-in-the sky idealistic but in reality it was just the inevitable result of ongoing trends.

An economy not based on scarcity is as strange a concept to you and many other people as our current supermarkets would be to someone 500 years ago.

I think your comments are based on assumptions. You assume that I'm uneducated and scientifically illiterate. You appear to assume that I've never studied history, psychology or read a science paper...let alone understood one. You also seem to assume that your view is cast in stone and that those who disagree must be lacking information. What's worse is the way you have 'predicted' the future, with no caveats, when the only limits to the OP's topic are those of remaining reasonable and scientifically grounded.

[...]I suspect this may be the natural order of things in the galaxy.

It's good to see a degree of uncertainty amidst the declarations and prophetic assertions.

As I said, we astronomers see no evidence of grand space battles, death stars and the like.

Who is talking about death stars or grand space battles? Does anyone on Earth see evidence of such things? Is this another assumption? I argued that irrational actors in technological civilisations would commit acts that would necessitate laws and, by extension, 'police.'

However I suspect when we have technology capable of imaging the fine details of exoplanets with resolution down to the size of a small car that we may find plenty of necro-worlds. [...]I brought this topic up when I had lunch with Seth Shostak from the SETI Institute and he agreed.

Anyone following the Kepler Mission and crossing their fingers for the JWST share the same hopes. Did Shostak 'agree' or has he already read papers by guys like Annis, Papagiannis and Livio? I'm stoked that you had lunch with a guy many of us admire and yet the idea of searching for evidence of ETI in the Cosmos preceded your dinner date by several decades.

You're usually a member who I admire for sharing their expertise and keeping people up to date on new developments in the search for new worlds. ATS is improved (imho) by your contributions and there's always an interest in science around here. This is the first time I've taken exception to your posts and it's because you are better than this.

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: Shamrock6
a reply to: JadeStar

Ahhh okay. So instead of saying you know it to be an incorrect quote, we do the "source that now" song and dance.

How very quaint and human

Again, if you or anyone else allege Carl Sagan said something which I know to be incorrect then it is your responsibility not mine to source your quote when prompted.

It's common courtesy.

Common courtesy would be saying "he didn't say that." Not baiting somebody and stringing it along.

But I digress. Kandinsky pretty much summed up my feelings on this thread.

originally posted by: Kandinsky
a reply to: JadeStar

To a person like you 500 years ago that would have seemed pie-in-the sky idealistic but in reality it was just the inevitable result of ongoing trends.

An economy not based on scarcity is as strange a concept to you and many other people as our current supermarkets would be to someone 500 years ago.

I think your comments are based on assumptions.

Of course. It's a speculative topic.

You assume that I'm uneducated and scientifically illiterate. You appear to assume that I've never studied history, psychology or read a science paper...let alone understood one.

I did not assume that and I am sorry if somehow i gave that impression.

You also seem to assume that your view is cast in stone and that those who disagree must be lacking information. What's worse is the way you have 'predicted' the future, with no caveats, when the only limits to the OP's topic are those of remaining reasonable and scientifically grounded.

This seems hyperbolic. I never said my view was the only view. I was providing an alternative view which in my opinion is more likely based on sound and reasonable scientific extrapolation.

[...]I suspect this may be the natural order of things in the galaxy.

It's good to see a degree of uncertainty amidst the declarations and prophetic assertions.

Thanks.

I tend to always use terms like "suspect", "maybe", "perhaps", "could be", "might be" I think you know that. If I did not in this case I'm sorry but I thought earlier in the thread I established that my thoughts were speculative in nature because the topic itself is.

As I said, we astronomers see no evidence of grand space battles, death stars and the like.

Who is talking about death stars or grand space battles? Does anyone on Earth see evidence of such things? Is this another assumption? I argued that irrational actors in technological civilisations would commit acts that would necessitate laws and, by extension, 'police.'

If you recall my first post on this thread questioned how any place would be policiable due to the large travel distances. Beyond that I added that even with something like FTL travel, species might be so different that no common, universal law would even be applicable.

Someone else brought up this idea that there might be invasions, space battles by aliens because after all that's "human nature".

My last point was that planets are so common that it is unlikely that the galaxy is so densely populated that different species would have overlapping spheres of influence. I based that on conservative estimates of the distribution of habitable worlds as well as intelligence.

All of those things would seem to negate the need for some galactic police force even if one were practical (and one only would probably only be practical with FTL travel).

However I suspect when we have technology capable of imaging the fine details of exoplanets with resolution down to the size of a small car that we may find plenty of necro-worlds. [...]I brought this topic up when I had lunch with Seth Shostak from the SETI Institute and he agreed.

Anyone following the Kepler Mission and crossing their fingers for the JWST share the same hopes. Did Shostak 'agree' or has he already read papers by guys like Annis, Papagiannis and Livio? I'm stoked that you had lunch with a guy many of us admire and yet the idea of searching for evidence of ETI in the Cosmos preceded your dinner date by several decades.

The conversation was on other things which might be detectable at interstellar distances. It was not on the search for evidence of ETI in general but on my favorite topic: Necro-worlds as a potential answer to the Fermi Paradox. I wanted to know his thoughts on what types of things about such dead civilizations which did not progress much past our level, might be detectable in the spectra of reflected light from an exoplanet when we have direct imaging space telescope and the conversation turned to how long certain radioisotopes would be in detectable in the atmosphere of a planet which underwent thermonuclear war, how we might detect CFCs and other artificially produced molecules in exoplanet atmospheres, how we might know a planet underwent heat death by measuring infrared excess etc.

It was a very specific conversation along those lines.

You're usually a member who I admire for sharing their expertise and keeping people up to date on new developments in the search for new worlds. ATS is improved (imho) by your contributions and there's always an interest in science around here. This is the first time I've taken exception to your posts and it's because you are better than this.

Thanks. I'm sorry if I came across the wrong way in this thread. As I've done in the past I will be pulling back from posting a bit now. Maybe I just need a break and will be back as I have been previously? I don't know. A certain remark I will not dignify with repeating is why I'm done for now.

a reply to: JadeStar

I've just realised that none of us in the thread have considered misunderstandings or misinterpretations as sources of potential conflict for future 'space-faring civilisations.' Here we are, embodying such things, and thankfully able to move on and forget about them.

If you do take a break, don't stay away for long.

With respect,
K

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: Kandinsky
a reply to: JadeStar

Such ideas will be quaint as we will probably be post-human by then.

Okay. In the future, all technological 'space-faring civilisations' will be post-scarcity, 'post-human' and there'll be no irrational actions or conflict whatsoever to justify laws.

How idealistic.

You see it as idealism. I see it as the natural and logical progression of outcomes and current trends, some of which reach back over 1,000 years.

It's just the trajectory we are on if one looks at the big picture and a wider view of time beyond their own life span.

And there's nothing utopian about it. It's no more utopian than if someone said 500 years ago: "In the future, i think things like scavenging for food daily will be obsolete. People will be able to eat anything they want from anywhere in the world."

To a person like you 500 years athey controlled the that would have seemed pie-in-the sky idealistic but in reality it was just the inevitable result of ongoing trends.

An economy not based on scarcity is as strange a concept to you and many other people as our current supermarkets would be to someone 500 years ago.

Scarcity and competition for resources have been all that humanity has known afterall.

To suggest we may be moving beyond scarcity to the common person seems utopian. But as our futurist friend from 500 years ago would have observed the same trends which would lead to supermarkets would not necessarily end with us. Time marches on.

Our futurist friend from 500 years ago would have been mocked by his or her peers for suggesting people might eat anything they want at any hour of the day or night just as Giordano Bruno was mocked and persecuted by people even in educated circles and eventually killed by the Catholic church who thought his suggestions of many worlds like earth orbiting other suns was ridiculous, sacrilegious and lacked "common sense".

Futurism often is at odds with "human nature" and "common sense" but such extrapolation often ends up correct.

At about the same time that we're beginning to look at transitioning beyond a scarcity based economy (for instance I live in a city with an actual asteroid mining company, Planetary Resources) we are also on the verge of unleashing transformative technologies which will re-define what it means to be human and that is why I suspect this may be the natural order of things in the galaxy.

It would not shock me if most of the aliens who can travel the stars are post-biological for a number of very solid reasons.

As I said, we astronomers see no evidence of grand space battles, death stars and the like. However I suspect when we have technology capable of imaging the fine details of exoplanets with resolution down to the size of a small car that we may find plenty of necro-worlds. Planets which killed themselves through nuclear, biological or chemical warfare. Or perhaps through environmental collapse. I brought this topic up when I had lunch with Seth Shostak from the SETI Institute and he agreed.

And on the other side of that abyss I suspect that we'll also see planets of endless wonders and marvels from old civilizations which escaped "The Great FIlter".

If I am right, perhaps humanity will as well.

Now this aspect right here we are in total agreement on.

The singularity is coming, faster and faster each day.

We will be seeing post biological life within our own life times.

Indeed some reading this very post will have the opportunity to become immortal if they so choose.

Even living multiple lives at once.

Walking on the moon, while navigating a ship to another system, while exploring the depths of an alien world.

And they would all get to experience all these things once their data transmissions reached their other "selves".

But we would still need power to fuel even these bodies.

Meaning people would need, meaning someone somewhere would make sure they controlled it so they could control people.

There are always those that seek power over others.

There is no reason to believe this will not continue.

Those with power seek to keep it, by killing etc...to manipulate those they seek to control.

I don't see this aspect of humanity ever ending.

There will always be need of some resources as long as there are humans.

There will always be humans that wish to have power by controlling them.

Today it is food shelter entertainment.

Tomorrow it may just be robotic body parts energy data connections.

There will always be need of one type or another though.

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: JadeStar

And with that

And there's nothing utopian about it. It's no more utopian than if someone said 500 years ago: "In the future, i think things like scavenging for food daily will be obsolete. People will be able to eat anything they want from anywhere in the world."

You killed your own argument.
"Oh I am the only one who has the right answers." and then not knowing how people around 1515 already had almost world-spanning trading routes, is just why nobody will ever say you are right...

[SNIP]

I wasn't talking about trade routes. I was talking about 24 hour supermarkets.

Point lost and I am done communicating with you as you've been abusive.

He was rather abusive...I would have stopped interacting as well.

originally posted by: Kandinsky
a reply to: JadeStar

I've just realised that none of us in the thread have considered misunderstandings or misinterpretations as sources of potential conflict for future 'space-faring civilisations.' Here we are, embodying such things, and thankfully able to move on and forget about them.

If you do take a break, don't stay away for long.

With respect,
K

That is an interesting thought that hasn't really been discussed yet.

What if we wave hello but to them that is the ultimate go EFF yourself?

Or drinking water in plain sight is some kind of huge taboo.

Or maybe using mechanised and not organic tech is their ultimate slight( totally ripped that off from star wars BTW, the yuzhaan vong...tsovong law was a beast).

What if they are a totally naive species and one of our more douche baggish members drops a comp virus on them?

Not having developed protections against such a thing because hacking just never occurred to them.

Maybe eating their young right after birth because they have a type if parasitic life cycle, would we look on and not be offended?

Or if it is common for them to crash a ship into a holy site here on earth as a sign of peace( plz let us be socially evolved beyond religion by then).

There could be a great many misunderstandings.

a reply to: JadeStar don't you dare go for too long your posts and debate are appreciated.

originally posted by: zazzafrazz
a reply to: JadeStar don't you dare go for too long your posts and debate are appreciated.

Agreed

Just because I don't agree doesn't mean I don't want to argue over the differences we have to test my own views against another's well reasoned and insightful thoughts.

To be honest, the only truly stimulating conversation I have since moving 1K miles from my brother are on ATS.

With folks just like jade.

Nobody here can even debate past which fastfood is better( none obviously yuk) or which kardashian is the " hottest"( ugh).

I have very much enjoyed mental jousting with Jade on this subject.

a reply to: infinityorder

Mtheory is bs.....

All it takes to make m theory work is adding in an extra dimension every time something doesn't add up, ie it is bs.

Actually what you say about string theory (s) is true when they had 5 of them. They finally got it down to one theory called 'M' Theory.... which when the numbers are crunched says there are 10 extra dimensions excluding a dimension for time.. There will be those who will say, "So what they are just doing numbers".... but .... from the fictional story with a bit of truth:

Newton was so good with a mathematical tool he invented called 'Calculus' that he was able to figure out that the orbit of a planet or moon was an ellipse in relation to the mass of an object at the then called foci. I bring this up simply because there are certain constants in all dimensions and the amount of gravity leakage form the Bulk is one of those constants; unless the Banes touch, which if they do, it then causes all of what we consider creation.

He figured out stuff with math, paper and his brain that was later to be proven correct.. The theoretical boys and girls get stuff right on occasion.

'M' theory is not the same as your old Daddy's string theories. Finally all of the problems with the 5 string theories and their infinite extra dimensions have been done away with 'M' .. The math now works without all the extra B.S.

Maybe 'M' is totally wrong, maybe it is correct.. CERN should be able to answer some of the questions if not sooner, then later. I for one hope so.

If you fear these things then don't allow these thoughts to exist in your reality... Reject the whole notion and it will not happen to you. You live what you think. Your world is meant for you and you only. Make it the one that you want. Love. a reply to: infinityorder