Jesus so called "sacrifice" on the cross

a reply to: TzarChasm

That is only if the logic that being killed to save your brothers and sisters from something worse than what we have now is considered losing. Once you account for the spirit then death takes on a new form for some.

originally posted by: deadeyedick

originally posted by: Eunuchorn
a reply to: deadeyedick



So before jesus died, every human that died burned in hell?



If jesus came back to life, where is he now?

You lost me.
where did the burning in hell part come from in my post?

Jesus is just chillin.

originally posted by: deadeyedick

By going along with their plans he won back all of us from the system we are in.

We are still slaves but have hope now in death rather than eternal torment and such.

When they denied him and killed him he took ownership of us and choose to forgive us of the things we do here if we accept him.

Jesus is just chillin? So he accepts we can do nothing but sin, & so long as we accept that he came back to life & is chillin somewhere, it doesn't matter how many sins we commit?

originally posted by: deadeyedick
a reply to: TzarChasm
Once you account for the spirit then death takes on a new form for some.

In my experience, Christians fear death more than most. Hell, their staple philosophy is if you aren't God-fearing, you're an ignorant sinner.

a reply to: Eunuchorn

He accepts our human nature and allows us a chance to live and grow up spiritually.

He only wants us to follow him and not to judge everything all the time.

Love is the key we are all looking for.

What would we gain if we were teenagers still using training wheels and potty chairs?

Live,forgive and love.

a reply to: Eunuchorn

staple philosophy is if you aren't God-fearing, you're an ignorant sinner.

I think the term is heathens

We all are sinners and that makes each and everyone of us at some point hypocrits

By that logic hypocrits are necessary for guiding us but are easily bashed.

originally posted by: deadeyedick
a reply to: TzarChasm

That is only if the logic that being killed to save your brothers and sisters from something worse than what we have now is considered losing. Once you account for the spirit then death takes on a new form for some.

yeah, lets not forget that the same guy who decided centuries beforehand that it would be legitimate to have his own son brutally crucified (which left him plenty of time to revise things but we'll presume [incorrectly] that there were no other viable solutions) also designed the torture chamber his son was supposed to sacrifice himself to save us from. feels like a lot of these strings go back to the same set of bloody hands.

a reply to: TzarChasm

or that you view death differently than others.

No one was being forced in the situation hence the term sacrifice.

When you were a child did you ever question and cast judgments on subjects that seemed absolutely bs at the time but later you accuired other knowlege that changed your views?

a reply to: deadeyedick

Actually the police force of the time was forcing his death; just because he didn't try to flee the realm doesn't make it a willing sacrifice; more of an acceptance of his fate & thus acceptance of the fate of all humans, whether they believe in or follow his teachings or not.

& I'm still trying to understand, what happened to humans after death before jesus invented/converted to Christianity & was subsequently sacrificed.

Heathen: one who does not confirm to a widely held religion. An agnostic can be godfearing & still considered a heathen.

Sinner: a person who transgresses against divine law & commits immoral acts.

Hypocrite: one who claims to have moral standards to which their behavior does not conform.

So one cannot be a heathen without being a sinner, maybe. I don't commit sins yet follow no philosphy of divine law. It's pretty easy to be selfless & commit no sin, actually.
Being a sinner absolutely DOES NOT translate to being a hypocrite though. To me it seems like religions just make it oh so easy to be such.

a reply to: deadeyedick

originally posted by: Eunuchorn
a reply to: deadeyedick



Actually the police force of the time was forcing his death; just because he didn't try to flee the realm doesn't make it a willing sacrifice; more of an acceptance of his fate & thus acceptance of the fate of all humans, whether they believe in or follow his teachings or not.



& I'm still trying to understand, what happened to humans after death before jesus invented/converted to Christianity & was subsequently sacrificed.

What makes a willing sacrifice is that he knew before they did and he had the power and strength to stop it but choose to follow a path because of the choices that were made in eden.

a reply to: deadeyedick

Ok I'll accept that, despite the fact it's pure speculation derived from a book written by men.

Now let's go back to what happened to humans after death before jesus & the NT showed up?

a reply to: Eunuchorn

Yes but my point is that we all sin and then yell hypocrit at those caught trying to outline what we should not do.

If the only people that can define morals are the ones that have never been morally wrong then there is no hope.

That is why we should focus on the message and not the messenger.

Often we resort to attacking the messenger because we do not like the message even though the message is sound.

a reply to: Eunuchorn

Now let's go back to what happened to humans after death before jesus & the NT showed up?

It is a matter of the ownership i spoke of.

After the choice in eden we were under a different master and that is exactly why the sacrifice on the cross took place.

It is hard to say exactly what all took place after death and remain in the bounds of the bible.

Even in our generation some changes have been made but they are not yet written or known.

a reply to: rokkuman

Jesus was the first to experience the resurrection to eternal life. The first fruits of the harvest since He was the only one to live perfectly by God's law.

All who die can experience the same through His Grace.

But of course, you have barred the theological explanation because you don't want to hear it.

a reply to: ketsuko

Jesus was the first to experience the resurrection to eternal life.

How can you say that? According to the Bible, there were several people that were resurrected, in both the Old and New Testament. Then, of course there was Melchizedek, who was "never born and never died, and Elijah, who never died.

According to Jesus, "everyone" born in the spirit has eternal life.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

I take that to mean that there were people that were born again, born of the spirit, and therefore had eternal life without Jesus having to die.

originally posted by: deadeyedick
Here you go again.

First off it was a sacrifice because he knew what they were gonna do to him before they did.

He did not run or fight.

By going along with their plans he won back all of us from the system we are in.

We are still slaves but have hope now in death rather than eternal torment and such.

When they denied him and killed him he took ownership of us and choose to forgive us of the things we do here if we accept him.

The reason he came back to life is because the spirit of truth and justice dwelled over the event and life was granted back to him because of his deed.

It is the faith he had that led the angels back to him.

"he did not run or fight"

- jesus ran away and escaped on several occassions.

The reason he came back to life is because ....

exactly he came back to life, i.e. he is not dead. So its odd how christians keep claiming jesus died or was sacrificed.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: rokkuman

Jesus was the first to experience the resurrection to eternal life. The first fruits of the harvest since He was the only one to live perfectly by God's law.

All who die can experience the same through His Grace.

But of course, you have barred the theological explanation because you don't want to hear it.

the reason I barred the theological explanation is because not all of us use the bible as a substitute for logical reasoning.

Considering Jesus is actually alive in a glorious body the idea of Jesus "sacrifice" and "death" is a logical conundrum instead of a theological issue. thus it needs to be addressed logically, not through the bible.

surely the tales in the bible stands up to logical scrutiny?

originally posted by: rokkuman

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: rokkuman

Jesus was the first to experience the resurrection to eternal life. The first fruits of the harvest since He was the only one to live perfectly by God's law.

All who die can experience the same through His Grace.

But of course, you have barred the theological explanation because you don't want to hear it.

the reason I barred the theological explanation is because not all of us use the bible as a substitute for logical reasoning.

Considering Jesus is actually alive in a glorious body the idea of Jesus "sacrifice" and "death" is a logical conundrum instead of a theological issue. thus it needs to be addressed logically, not through the bible.

surely the tales in the bible stands up to logical scrutiny?

Christians should not make the mistake of thinking those who point out flaws in the bible are looking for a biblical explanations. We know christians are expert mental gymnast who use the bible as a foundation for their "reasonings" and so for them it would only be a matter of saying "see, this verse says this and that verse says that therefore the problem is solved".

That approach might work great for christians looking to keep their faith but for everybody else you would need to keep the bible aside and put your thinking caps on and answer using only logic.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: rokkuman
If it's so easy to do, perhaps you would be willing to do it yourself?
Since you think there's nothing to it?

I am not saying I think there is nothing to it.

The problem is the teaching that Jesus was "sacrificed" and "died" when the bible says he came back to life in a "glorified" body. Its a plot hole in the bible .

If I sacrifice my arm for you today (for whatever reason) and a new one magically grows back tomorrow does it still mean I sacrificed my arm for you???

Same conundrum with Jesus so called "sacrifice".

originally posted by: Abednego
a reply to: rokkuman

The sacrifice wasn't about dying in the cross. it was about living as a human being. He came down to earth to live, feel and suffer like a human in order for him to be able to intercede for our sins.

So the all-knowing God didn't already know all that stuff? Hmmm.

originally posted by: FlyersFan

originally posted by: rokkuman
According to logic 101 are statements like "Jesus was sacrificed" or "Jesus died on the cross" valid considering Jesus came back to life later?

Of course they are. He was tortured, yes? He went through the agony of death, yes? When He rose from the dead He did not come back into a human body but came back transformed into His glorified body. Everyone gets a new life after human death. That doesn't take away from the agony and sacrifice that He endured while alive in human form. Logic 101.

OK. Where was God during those three days he was dead?