The Truth is Unspeakable; American Sniper unloads on 'American Sniper'

a reply to: Tangerine

BUT the sociopathinc person who would seek combat WOULD need that or they woudn't GO THERE in the first place would they ? SELF preservation is PARAMOUNT to that kind of personality .
Join to kill isn't going to work either HENCE the FRAGGING the nut scenario.


Unless YOU HAVE actually served in a squad you really can't say. IF YOUR brother acted in a sociopathic manner COULD YOU tell?

originally posted by: cavtrooper7
a reply to: Tangerine

BUT the sociopathinc person who would seek combat WOULD need that or they woudn't GO THERE in the first place would they ? SELF preservation is PARAMOUNT to that kind of personality .
Join to kill isn't going to work either HENCE the FRAGGING the nut scenario.

Unless YOU HAVE actually served in a squad you really can't say. IF YOUR brother acted in a sociopathic manner COULD YOU tell?

Fragging did happen. You're arguing my position.

a reply to: Answer

Has anyone actually read the book?

Answer me this Answer - what is humanity and who decides it?

If you ask me, my humanity is built on personal feelings, it bothers me not in the slightest if you think I am inhumane for eating bacon. Likewise, if you pigeon hole me as a sociopath because I fit that hole.

On the same level, I have never taken a human life, if I ever found myself in a situation where I had to or wanted to, would I take the life of the person, I would do whatever I felt like.

Chris Kyle was very religions, he said in his book God first, USA second and he could face his god with a clear conscious, was that because he was fed BS by his government? No, it was because for every person he shot, his brother in the Marines had a better chance of living. Was that marine worth saving more than the person trying to kill the marine who had invaded their country....what you gonna do.

The Armed Forces do not represent the majority of voters, I put it this way, if you voted for Bush or Blair or you didnt vote, you created the American Sniper, be it Chris Kyle or any other, you allowed and are still allowing this. The soldier is just going to protect his own.

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: cavtrooper7
a reply to: Tangerine

Already stated.
Narcissistic personalities don't like to die regardless of the killing done,their EGOS can't take it a good soldier has to gamble with their life.
They don't like to follow or take commands either.
If one shows up in a line unit and they "READ" as crazy they would be outed and NO one would patrol with them or might frag them.
You learn to read people REAL well when you could die.

So there are no sociopaths in the military. Yeah, right. You don't seem to realize that narcissistic personality disorder and sociopathy are two different things, by the way.

there are sociopaths who are police officers, doctors, lawyers prison guards, teachers. The list goes on. Your point is quite invalid.

originally posted by: sg1642

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: cavtrooper7
a reply to: Tangerine

Already stated.
Narcissistic personalities don't like to die regardless of the killing done,their EGOS can't take it a good soldier has to gamble with their life.
They don't like to follow or take commands either.
If one shows up in a line unit and they "READ" as crazy they would be outed and NO one would patrol with them or might frag them.
You learn to read people REAL well when you could die.

So there are no sociopaths in the military. Yeah, right. You don't seem to realize that narcissistic personality disorder and sociopathy are two different things, by the way.

there are sociopaths who are police officers, doctors, lawyers prison guards, teachers. The list goes on. Your point is quite invalid.

Agree totally, labels put on others for the sanctum of those who want to try and understand, its the same as religion.

I will take this way left field here, you/we/us label a Pedophile.

Do you think that given the ability to make a decision on what turns them on, they would decide it is a child?

Knowing that they would be violating laws, judged inhumane, hurting an innocent child, they decide that this is what they want? They dont have a choice and yet they are human.

Putting labels on people means you dont have to answer the hard questions, just like religion.

How can someone who cannot chose to not be turned on by children be vilified and not helped? Oh sure, its sick as # and even though the threat of jail, social exclusion and lynching can not help the poor #er who has this affliction, we label them and put them in a box.

I dont think pedo's should be free, but I dont think they should be in jail, a deterrent is like telling a depressed person you will be put in prison for trying to kill youself!

What has this to do with this thread - judging people like Chris Kyle for acting the way he was created/made, I think we as humans fall well short of the mark, labelling people and then relying on medievil imprisonment.

We are not as mature as we need to be.

originally posted by: sg1642

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: cavtrooper7
a reply to: Tangerine

Already stated.
Narcissistic personalities don't like to die regardless of the killing done,their EGOS can't take it a good soldier has to gamble with their life.
They don't like to follow or take commands either.
If one shows up in a line unit and they "READ" as crazy they would be outed and NO one would patrol with them or might frag them.
You learn to read people REAL well when you could die.

So there are no sociopaths in the military. Yeah, right. You don't seem to realize that narcissistic personality disorder and sociopathy are two different things, by the way.

there are sociopaths who are police officers, doctors, lawyers prison guards, teachers. The list goes on. Your point is quite invalid.

You missed my point by a mile. I said nothing about other professions.

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: sg1642

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: cavtrooper7
a reply to: Tangerine

Already stated.
Narcissistic personalities don't like to die regardless of the killing done,their EGOS can't take it a good soldier has to gamble with their life.
They don't like to follow or take commands either.
If one shows up in a line unit and they "READ" as crazy they would be outed and NO one would patrol with them or might frag them.
You learn to read people REAL well when you could die.

So there are no sociopaths in the military. Yeah, right. You don't seem to realize that narcissistic personality disorder and sociopathy are two different things, by the way.

there are sociopaths who are police officers, doctors, lawyers prison guards, teachers. The list goes on. Your point is quite invalid.

You missed my point by a mile. I said nothing about other professions.

and that is exactly my point. You are singling out the military for having people amongst its ranks who have mental issues when every profession has them.

On a side note I was unaware that Jesse Ventura had sued Kyle for defamation for claiming he had attacked Ventura for remarks made about dead SEALs. Not sure what to think about that one. The man is known for his alternative views but I've never heard of him bad mouthing comrades, dead or alive. I don't think the legal case should have died with Kyle if he had made false claims because Ventura should have a chance to clear his name regardless.

I've never quoted myself in a thread, but I feel this is a good time to do so. I continue to follow this thread, and continue to see people hating on soldiers. I'd like to once again say quit hating our military. Start hating the ones that use the military for political gain.

originally posted by: EternalSolace
Reading all the soldier bashing in this thread is making me sick. Everyone in this thread ought to look at themselves. We are also responsible because every election that comes around we vote in the same crap. Self serving politicians who use our military for everything except what it's actualy there for. Those whom say they don't vote, are also at fault. You're missing an opportunity to make change.

The folks in our military didn't sign up to fight for a politicians interest. Or the interest of some 3rd world despot whom can't keep their own country secure. They signed up to protect the rest of us from the trash of the earth. ISIS is the prime example for this. Instead, they were told to go to Afghanistan and Iraq and other places for reasons that are obscure and not known. They are sent there by politicians that are obviously out for personal gain and not looking out for the nation's best interest. Yet, they are critized for killing?

Really?

They're not out there killing because they want to. They're doing it so as many of our soldiers can make it home as possible. So yes, I'm thankful that they're doing what they do. I'm thankful that folks like that helped ensure that the friends and family I have in the military made it home okay.

Long story short, stop criticizing our soldiers for doing their job, and start critizizing those in power whom sent them there to begin with.

a reply to: EternalSolace

Iraq and Afghanistan have left a bitter taste in many a serviceman's mouth. It's not really until after the fact and the blinkers have been lifted that you see the truth of the matter. You know what they say about hindsight...

It's not a nice feeling to know you've killed and lost friends for something that has turned out to be a completely corrupt and criminal cause. Effectively the people who have served were just tools used by the corrupt elite and that is a bitter pill to swallow. It makes it a whole lot harder to swallow when you have armchair generals rubbing that fact in your face.

originally posted by: sg1642
a reply to: EternalSolace

Iraq and Afghanistan have left a bitter taste in many a serviceman's mouth. It's not really until after the fact and the blinkers have been lifted that you see the truth of the matter. You know what they say about hindsight...

It's not a nice feeling to know you've killed and lost friends for something that has turned out to be a completely corrupt and criminal cause. Effectively the people who have served were just tools used by the corrupt elite and that is a bitter pill to swallow. It makes it a whole lot harder to swallow when you have armchair generals rubbing that fact in your face.

That's what I'm getting at. The hate toward the soldiers needs to stop. It's pathetic. It ought to be directed at those in power whom use the military for self serving interests.

originally posted by: EternalSolace

originally posted by: sg1642
a reply to: EternalSolace

Iraq and Afghanistan have left a bitter taste in many a serviceman's mouth. It's not really until after the fact and the blinkers have been lifted that you see the truth of the matter. You know what they say about hindsight...

It's not a nice feeling to know you've killed and lost friends for something that has turned out to be a completely corrupt and criminal cause. Effectively the people who have served were just tools used by the corrupt elite and that is a bitter pill to swallow. It makes it a whole lot harder to swallow when you have armchair generals rubbing that fact in your face.

That's what I'm getting at. The hate toward the soldiers needs to stop. It's pathetic. It ought to be directed at those in power whom use the military for self serving interests.

well it's easy to paint the soldiers as the villains. People went thousands of miles from their homes and families to the most hostile situations imaginable not knowing if they'll return. And it was in the firm belief they were doing the right thing. That doesn't make them the bad guys. How about the people, the masses? What have they done to stop their government's treacherous ways? Re-elected them and pointed fingers at the military that's what. Instead of bashing the military on online forums grow a set and do something about the real cause of the problems.

a reply to: cavtrooper7

Sorry but it's hard to see you as a 'volunteer' when your name and avatar relish in your chosen profession and you constantly bang on about it.

Sounds more like the behaviour of someone who relished in it, than the behaviour of someone with honour and ethics like the servicemen of WW2 who never spoke of what they did as they were people of valor.

Comparing a defensive war to an offensive illegal one doesn't help your cause either, especially given the one sided nature of the invasion making it like shooting fish in a barrel - not meant to have a go at you but to point out why others are disagreeing with your POV.



As for the film it's obvious war machine propaganda - no solider worth their salt would keep a kill count and profiteer from being a serial killer - they'd be ashamed they had take another life and want to make sure no one else was stupid enough o do the same.

originally posted by: CloudsTasteMetallic
a reply to: Strawberry88
Here's a link i think you'll find quite insightful. Cheers.
Link

BUTTHURT REPORT FORM
(internet version)
DATE AND TIME YOU EXPERIENCED BUTTHURT:
PLEASE DESCRIBE NATURE OF THE BUTTHURT.

0 LiveJournal Post
0 Message Board Post
0 Comment Thread Post
0 Chat room Post
0 Blog Post
0 LOLCat
0 Random Joke / Cartoon / News item that you found
0 Other (Please Specify)
0 PLEASE TELL US MORE ABOUT THE INCIDENT OF BUTTHURT.
[....]

just spat my coffee out thanks for that

a reply to: sg1642

No prob. Been waiting for the perfect time to drop that little gem i found over on a shooter's forum.

originally posted by: bastion
a reply to: cavtrooper7

Sorry but it's hard to see you as a 'volunteer' when your name and avatar relish in your chosen profession and you constantly bang on about it.

Sounds more like the behaviour of someone who relished in it, than the behaviour of someone with honour and ethics like the servicemen of WW2 who never spoke of what they did as they were people of valor.

Comparing a defensive war to an offensive illegal one doesn't help your cause either, especially given the one sided nature of the invasion making it like shooting fish in a barrel - not meant to have a go at you but to point out why others are disagreeing with your POV.


As for the film it's obvious war machine propaganda - no solider worth their salt would keep a kill count and profiteer from being a serial killer - they'd be ashamed they had take another life and want to make sure no one else was stupid enough o do the same.

are you a soldier or ever been one? If not how can you comment on how a soldier thinks or operates? As a matter of fact to soldiers, especially snipers due to the effort and time put into mastering their job, killing an enemy combatant brings a distinct feeling. It's called job satisfaction. And not because he is some crazed killer, it's because that is potentially a friend or colleague's life saved. Of course it brings many other feelings and depending on the circumstances it will bring nothing but regret. And as for the soldiers of world war 2 not speaking about their acts of valour, there are very few today who speak of them either. But a lot of servicemen back then would paint a ring round the barrel of their tank's main gun, or a cross on the fuselage of their aircraft. Do you know what they represented? An enemy killed.

Perhaps people who have never been in a soldiers or serviceman's position shouldn't make presumptions when they don't really know what they are talking about. (Not directed specifically at the member quoted above).

originally posted by: CloudsTasteMetallic
a reply to: sg1642

No prob. Been waiting for the perfect time to drop that little gem i found over on a shooter's forum.

don't mention you were on a shooter forum in this thread you will be viewed as a serial killer no doubt.

a reply to: sg1642

I couldn't care less what others think. All those poor paper targets out at my local range, may they rest in peace.

I think it was a comments section on a blog i found that link, but I know comedy gold when I see it. Went straight to bookmarks!

On topic: I do find it fishy that the OP's link claims that a 'sniper' made his first kill w/ an iron sight M4A1... Not exactly known as a high-precision platform.


And I'll just repost what I left on a thread discussing the film. Bears repeating.

While I haven't seen it yet, (waiting for release on DVD/Blu-ray/whatever) based on a few reviews I've read, the opening scene touches on parts of a brilliant essay by LTC (RET) Dave Grossman which influenced Kyle's moral code heavily.


I'll leave some key snippets, but I really can't recommend reading the whole thing highly enough.
On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs

"Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age. It does so because honor is, finally, about defending those noble and worthy things that deserve defending, even if it comes at a high cost. In our time, that may mean social disapproval, public scorn, hardship, persecution, or as always, even death itself. The question remains: What is worth defending? What is worth dying for? What is worth living for? - William J. Bennett - in a lecture to the United States Naval Academy November 24, 1997

One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this to me:

"Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident." This is true. Remember, the murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000 per year. What this means is that the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another.
[...]
Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the situation: We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation. They are sheep.

I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me it is like the pretty, blue robin's egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers, soldiers, and other warriors are like that shell, and someday the civilization they protect will grow into something wonderful. For now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the predators.

"Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, "and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in denial.

"Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf."

If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath, a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? What do you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed.


The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, can not and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheep dog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours.

Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn't tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports in camouflage fatigues holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, "Baa."

Until the wolf shows up. Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog.
[...]
Their only response to the wolf, though, is denial, and all too often their response to the sheepdog is scorn and disdain. But the sheepdog quietly asks himself, "Do you have and idea how hard it would be to live with yourself if your loved ones attacked and killed, and you had to stand there helplessly because you were unprepared for that day?"

It is denial that turns people into sheep. Sheep are psychologically destroyed by combat because their only defense is denial, which is counterproductive and destructive, resulting in fear, helplessness and horror when the wolf shows up.

Denial kills you twice. It kills you once, at your moment of truth when you are not physically prepared: you didn't bring your gun, you didn't train. Your only defense was wishful thinking. Hope is not a strategy. Denial kills you a second time because even if you do physically survive, you are psychologically shattered by your fear helplessness and horror at your moment of truth.

Gavin de Becker puts it like this in Fear Less, his superb post-9/11 book, which should be required reading for anyone trying to come to terms with our current world situation: "...denial can be seductive, but it has an insidious side effect. For all the peace of mind deniers think they get by saying it isn't so, the fall they take when faced with new violence is all the more unsettling."

Denial is a save-now-pay-later scheme, a contract written entirely in small print, for in the long run, the denying person knows the truth on some level.

Have a good Sunday, brother.

a reply to: sg1642

No but I train with ex SF and Marines and none of them would class killing people as job satisfaction, especially not in phony wars (in fact one mate quit after seeing what the US Marines got up to with dead bodies but that's another story). Obviously myself and someone who's gone through the brainwashing and desensitisation towards murder are going to have different views but it doesn't mean both are invalid (i.e Cavs viewpoint is as real to him as mine is to me).

By that logic I shouldn't be able to say a paedophile is guilty as I've never raped children or that a serial killer is bad as I don't go round killing people. You don't have to have done something to know it's wrong.

originally posted by: bastion
a reply to: sg1642

No but I train with ex SF and Marines and none of them would class killing people as job satisfaction, especially not in phony wars (in fact one mate quit after seeing what the US Marines got up to with dead bodies but that's another story). Obviously myself and someone who's gone through the brainwashing and desensitisation towards murder are going to have different views but it doesn't mean both are invalid (i.e Cavs viewpoint is as real to him as mine is to me).

By that logic I shouldn't be able to say a paedophile is guilty as I've never raped children or that a serial killer is bad as I don't go round killing people. You don't have to have done something to know it's wrong.

and what special forces did they belong to? By what logic? You made a presumption about something you haven't experienced and it's quite distasteful using child rape or murder as an example or comparison. Of course there would be differences in opinion, including defining killing an enemy combatant as murder.