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Why Arming Ukraine could be a dangerous escalation......

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posted on Feb, 5 2015 @ 07:10 PM
the topic of world war 3 began when world war two ended . a weapon of mass destruction created a weapon of mass destruction as in the dead . the fact is the war didn't end . part 3 is the end . it is up to the people to decide does the war continue .

posted on Feb, 5 2015 @ 07:10 PM
a reply to: Riouz

Putin may be crazy but he's not dumb. If he took all of Ukraine in one fell swoop he'd have all of Eastern Europe and their allies taking direct action against him. Instead he's playing the long game. Take a little territory from his neighbors and then wait for the uproar to die down. Then take a little more and rinse and repeat.

posted on Feb, 5 2015 @ 07:22 PM
the wall in China for instance which is a very basic message from the dead .
mind your own business or you will be what this wall was built with .
edit on 5-2-2015 by GEZUCHKRiCT because: (no reason given)

posted on Feb, 5 2015 @ 07:42 PM

originally posted by: GEZUCHKRiCT
the wall in China for instance which is a very basic message from the dead .
mind your own business or you will be what this wall was built with .

Considering the wall started back in 8th - 5th century BC and was built to help stop the northern tribes from invading / raiding their territory your premise is a bit off. Even more so since the wall did not altogether stop the acts it was built to stop. it was also used to collect tariffs from trading etc.

You guys really should learn history before trying to use it as an example.

posted on Feb, 5 2015 @ 07:48 PM

off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


posted on Feb, 5 2015 @ 08:01 PM
The West has to stop Russian aggression and Ukraine is the perfect place to do it. Russia just keeps invading neighbors and carving off pieces. It has to stop before WW3 is started. With Ukraine's manpower and the West's money and weapons Russia is about to get returned to Third World status. Not only is the Russian economy going to be ground up and served to China for pennies, the Russian military will get exposed for the bag of one month old conscripts it really is.

The Ukraine will surely be the end of Putin, that is already being planned. The question is how far back to the medieval age is Russia going to be pounded. A terrible tragedy for people who decided rampant nationalism is a good government tool.

posted on Feb, 5 2015 @ 08:02 PM
hence the title of the thread .

posted on Feb, 5 2015 @ 08:05 PM

off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


posted on Feb, 5 2015 @ 08:13 PM
a reply to: noeltrotsky

With Ukraine's manpower

That's what Motorola and Givi were quacking jokes about recently on the airport batle.............why does Junta send them so much meat to fry up?

answer............Ukraine's manpower!

will give you this one!!

posted on Feb, 5 2015 @ 08:15 PM

edit on 5-2-2015 by GEZUCHKRiCT because: off topic

posted on Feb, 5 2015 @ 09:43 PM

I think we have already caused enough trouble there,just like in all the other places we have so called 'helped'. It is really a silly idea that Russia will take back Ukraine. That I can't even entertain for a second. If Russia had really wanted to do that,it would already be done,and I don't mean just Crimea. They would have had the whole country a while back.Plus when you look at the fact that Russia has not gone on and taken the rest of Moldova or Georgia,it shows that they don't want those countries as once again part of Russia. They want a buffer zone to keep NATO off their door step,and will do whatever it takes to achieve that.

As far as giving them weapons or aid,I say forget it! How many wars do we have to support more? How much more debt must every man,woman,and child bear due to irresponsible budgeting and war in this country? I for one do not want to see our citizens burdened with this back breaking debt,that has no real benefit for us. Who is threatening us? Trust me its not Russia nor any middle eastern country. Its our own government that is taking our rights away as fast as they can. Now we are trying to make Ukraine our 51st state. If I were running Ukraine and saw the US coming, I would run for the hills! I would not want my country to become another Libya or Iraq. But its too late now,we have already implanted a couple of our citizens in their country to run it the way we want.And that big bad Russia is spoiling our fun 'sob'. Too bad. We need to worry about our citizens and let Ukraine pull itself out of its own cesspool. Its been that way for years now,and STILL hasn't learned to run itself right. If Russia was smart,they would call in their loans on that cesspool and bankrupt it right out from under the Western powers.
a reply to: Dimithae

Read the Budapest Memorandums. It will help you understand things a little better.

posted on Feb, 5 2015 @ 09:48 PM
a reply to: JBurns

LOL we will not be dead. I know a head honcho at Boeing who says that our missile defense is more than enough to handle anything Russia can throw at us. And I trust his judgement since he's the one handling classified projects and not I.

posted on Feb, 5 2015 @ 10:02 PM

originally posted by: IntroduceALittleIrony And I trust his judgement since he's the one handling classified projects and not I.

If this is true then I would probably not post the information in an international chat forum. Especially since the "classified" word was used.
edit on 5-2-2015 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)

posted on Feb, 5 2015 @ 10:31 PM
a reply to: IntroduceALittleIrony

I understand things perfectly,its not Russian citizens that are made instant Ukrainians to fill top spots in the government there.

It wasn't Russian politicians that went and shook hands with neo nazi members right before the maiden protests either.

I guess there aren't enough Ukrainians around to fill their own government.

And Porky has a degree in economics. So why does he need outsiders to do this?

And notice how it wasn't a big deal that civilians were being killed before,but now that the pro Russians are running the Ukrainian soldiers into the ground its become a serious escalation! Now we are worried about all those poor Ukrainians. We didn't care before as long as it was Ukrainian soldiers killing them. How pathetic.

posted on Feb, 5 2015 @ 11:37 PM

originally posted by: stirling

There are many emotional calls for shipping lethal aid to Ukraine....The separatists seem to be forging ahead with expansion and their attacks have been very successful, though bloody costly for both sides......
Now the US mulls over sending arms of an offensive nature....

Cooler heads are opposed to this option, and the debate is ongoing....
Any Opinions out there in ATS Land would be appreciated.....
Though I am in favour of some military aid....I think it should be specifically targeted towards neutralising Russian hardware that's pouring into Ukraine since the easterners revolted against the western backed government.

What a question and thread topic.
Sadly ATS is no longer a place where such discussion in a civilized manner can take place, as you have either already found or are about to soon find out when all the characters show up.

On the one hand you will have the hardcore neocon hawk wannabes of the Internet telling you how Russia is the spawn of satan and needs to be stopped and destroyed at any cost because Russia is to blame for everything wrong in the world. Putin him self is apparently the son of satan according to these people. To these people America is perfect and never does anything wrong and never has, and the American government loves all the peoples of the world and wants to make them all happy and safe and secure and cares about their rights and liberties. It's never lied either.

On the other hand you will get the hardcore pro-Russians, anti-American crowd. Russia is perfect whereas America is evil and rotten to the core. Russia is the savior of humanity who with Putin at the helm will and is standing up to American neocon zionist imperialism and the drive for global domination.

In the middle you will have the rest of us who try and argue with common sense, but largely try and avoid these two groups.

When Henry Kissinger comes out and says the West is largely to blame for the situation in the Ukraine, but that Russia isn't without fault given how it's reacted/responded, you have to listen.

But neither of them listen, because they know better. Even though they actually know very little, whereas a man like Kissinger knows a hell of a lot more.
The anti-Russia crowd are especially guilty of not listening and acting like they know it all.

You can't reason with them either. Trying to talk in a civil, mature, calm manner to these people, some of whom I see have responded quickly to your thread, is pointless and a futile exercise.

They simply troll you back.
They are like paid professional trolls.

You can see several anti-Russia threads started by these people.

ATS used to be a place for sharing ideas, theories, information, photos, videos, interesting stuff that wasn't in the mainstream about a wide range of subjects. From space, aliens, military, weapons, secret projects, wars, politics, economics, geopolitics, survival, paranormal. You name it. You could come to ATS and discuss these things, or simply read and learn something new more often then not.

Now you come here to read about non-mainstream reports about this war or that war, and you run into the sort of people I described above. I wont name names because that's ungentlemanly.

But good luck with your endeavors.

posted on Feb, 6 2015 @ 12:27 AM
a reply to: mortex

ATS used to be a place for sharing ideas, theories, information, photos, videos, interesting stuff that wasn't in the mainstream about a wide range of subjects. From space, aliens, military, weapons, secret projects, wars, politics, economics, geopolitics, survival, paranormal. You name it. You could come to ATS and discuss these things, or simply read and learn something new more often then not.

Not only this, this site became the place of deliberate moderating often biased to one side. I didn't responded for a few previous times when it happened, but the last instance of my comment being deleted made me make conclusion that there is a very narrow definition of "free speech" and in my view the mods here become too aggressive of deleting anything even when you just trying to defend against erroneous attempts to blame you in thread derailing. I fully understand that this comment by itself is in some way against the ATS rules, but if you started to discuss the nature of current ATS threads I feel obliged to make this point.

posted on Feb, 6 2015 @ 01:51 AM
a reply to: mortex

The purpose is to debate and discuss.. There is side A and there is side B. Somewhere in the middle is the truth.

When the same accusations keep popping up time after time, even when its been disproved, it becomes problematic. When you have claims made with nothing to back it up it becomes problematic. When Russia media gets caught time and time again lying in their broadcasts it becomes problematic.

When claims are made in multiple threads that Ukraine used WMD's it must be followed with a source. After several attempts to get the link the op just ignored the request.

It seems that when a topic is posted and individuals in that thread lose out on the debate for whatever reason, they go into mode of raising issues already discussed, which in turns buries the valid information.

Its extremely frustrating.

These debates should be a crucible, where the back and forth burns off the outer coat of mis-information, omissions, lies, etc until we are left with a purer product that is close to the truth.

posted on Feb, 6 2015 @ 02:54 AM
I tend to agree that the partisanship is tempered with a lot of extemporaneous "facts" which somehow never seem to get substantiated.....
However passionate we may be in our views on either side...let us never lose sight of the facts we can substantiate.....
In my mind there is not a lot of honesty to be found in the agitprop of either side....

I see Joe Bidens son as CEO of a Ukrainian fracking venture in what has been termed promising Ukrainian resource....
It makes me believe that the Ukraine was hornswoggled into the current predicament by corporate interests more than nationalistic furor....

We know that Putin himself is a multi billionaire because of his power position and mostly that's money from gas and oil.....(which was ripped off the owners years ago in another scandal...)

Perhaps this is a resource war spurred on by both sides and nothing political at all....just people being maniplulated by emotions left over from wars gone by........
Maybe I digress here, but this seems as if the Ukrainians are dupes either way they go, and it is they who pay with their lives for someone elses enrichment....
Did Putin move in for personal gain?.........Did the west?
probably both......
edit on 6-2-2015 by stirling because: (no reason given)

posted on Feb, 6 2015 @ 03:50 AM
U.S. Hawks Say Arming Ukraine Is The Only Way To Save Europe. Actual Europeans Disagree.

WASHINGTON -- Hours before Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) compared Europe's attitude toward Russian President Vladimir Putin to appeasement toward Nazi Germany, the German ambassador here warned U.S. hawks not to see a military solution as the only way forward on Ukraine.

Germany has "the sense this conflict is spiraling," Ambassador Peter Wittig said in a small briefing with reporters at the Germany embassy in Washington. But he urged proponents of sending arms to Ukraine to remember that diplomacy at the highest levels -- including what he called "an unusual trip" by the leaders of Germany and France to Moscow on Friday -- may still bear fruit.

German Chancellor Angela Merkel "would not go there if she had no hope that something would be achieved," the ambassador said. "She's not going empty-handed."

Wittig said he could not speak about any potential deal that Merkel and French President Francois Hollande may hope to strike with Putin.

The ambassador said his comments -- including questions to those who support sending arms, like, "Where should that lead to?" and "Does it lead to an improvement?" -- were not meant to insult U.S. figures like McCain. Instead, he said they were meant as "an appeal."

He warned that an even more serious military confrontation with Russia may ensue if the U.S. were to follow through on delivering arms to the embattled Ukrainian government, which has been fighting rebels tied to Putin for months. More than 5,000 have been killed in the fighting since April.

The New York Times reported over the weekend that support was growing in the Obama administration and NATO for sending defensive weapons and equipment to the Ukrainian army following recent major rebel victories. The day the story was published, eight senior one-time U.S. officials now working for a range of Washington think tanks published a rare joint report urging immediate action to arm Ukraine. Ukrainian government leaders have called for such assistance, most recently in an interview published Thursday by German outlet Die Welt.

McCain and others in a bipartisan group of legislators said Thursday that sending arms to Kiev was the only way to deter further advances by the pro-Russian rebels.

"Defensive, lethal assistance will not allow the Ukrainian military to defeat the Russian military in a full-fledged war. But it will raise the risks and costs Russia must incur to continue its offensive," McCain said. He called the Europeans, who have put their hopes in diplomacy, "a huge disappointment."

Secretary of State John Kerry visited Kiev Thursday and committed millions in new humanitarian aid to Ukraine. But the administration has not yet made clear whether it will send arms, suggesting it may be waiting to see whether the negotiations between Merkel, Hollande and Putin produce a workable agreement.

Wittig said Germany, too, is frustrated with "the lacking results of all diplomatic efforts" so far, including an agreement reached in Minsk in September that was meant to put an end to the clashes.

Still, Wittig added, the U.S. and Germany agree on the "common basis of a non-military agreement."

posted on Feb, 6 2015 @ 03:59 AM
a reply to: theultimatebelgianjoke

Your forum name with picture made me laugh so hard, I got tears in my eyes...thanks for that !

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