Why Arming Ukraine could be a dangerous escalation......

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

please provide a source for the pic.

Exactly

Yugoslavia is a great example. The one that opened a pandoras box. It's one rule for one, then another rule for another when it comes to America deciding on minority groups, as shown in its different attitudes to Kosovo Albanians and Ukranian Russians. If USA really wanted to defend minorities it woud be supporting the Russians in Ukraine like it did the Albaians in Yugoslavia.

Then again it's all about screwing over anyone allied to Russia isn't it

a reply to: MapMistress

I'm going to assume English is a second language for you because the encyclopedia you wrote has nothing to do with what he said.

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

All along since 1991, Russia helped and cooperated with the US/NATO on issues like Sanctions on Saddam, not giving weapons to Yugoslavia, not giving nuclear reactors to Iran, Libya, Syria, no S-300s for Syria or Iran. Russia provided massive intelligence and logistics support to NATO supplies in Afghanistan via NDN lines from Russia-Central Asia to Afghanistan.

For all of this help, what does Russia get...........constant encroachment of NATO to its borders. NGOs constantly trying to foment trouble inside Russia, attack on Russia's allies and creating regime changes and civil wars killing millions of people, plans for BMDs on Russia's borders.

Enough is enough. Russians humbled down a lot but in Ukraine their direct survival as a nation is questioned. Hence Putin is pushing back and will be doing so until Kremlin's objectives are met.

a reply to: victor7

I very seriously DOUBT the Kremlin is running this.
THIS is all PUTIN and they got stuck in the rush,all the supposed leaks, true or not ,were STILL reported in the public news media if they were supporting him those stories would have been curtailled.

Russia IS not sloppy on security like America,THAT is one thing even YOU have to admit.

If I remember right, last year the Kremlin did choose to openly invade Ukraine, but they later withdrew that option.

a reply to: cavtrooper7

I see, it might be a better idea to keep your doubts entrapped, 'cause they make a little sense.

WW3 prospects looming and it is Putin alone calling the shots. Could not disagree more!!

a reply to: victor7

And that means exactly what ...to ANYONE but yourself?www.novayagazeta.ru...

originally posted by: cavtrooper7
a reply to: victor7

I very seriously DOUBT the Kremlin is running this.
THIS is all PUTIN and they got stuck in the rush,all the supposed leaks, true or not ,were STILL reported in the public news media if they were supporting him those stories would have been curtailled.

Russia IS not sloppy on security like America,THAT is one thing even YOU have to admit.

Some of his oligarchs aren't happy with his policies they see it as weakening Russia for his dream of a trade union. This is nothing more than a dream Putin had made this option so unlikely as others are now divesting themselves from Russia. He made a major miscalculation thinking he could scare them in line. Oligarchs are watching there money and power disapear and are not happy. This is the reason Putin has closed his inner circle and we're seeing things hit Russian media.

I'm waiting to see how he handles the anti Putin rally coming up in Moscow. This will give us a clue how much power he has Still. With the release of these documents we know several oligarchs are starting to work against him.

originally posted by: victor7
a reply to: cavtrooper7

I see, it might be a better idea to keep your doubts entrapped, 'cause they make a little sense.

WW3 prospects looming and it is Putin alone calling the shots. Could not disagree more!!

What?? OK first no world war 3 Putin would have to be insane and I don't believe he is. Unless you know something I dont?? Putin is walking a line he knows he has to make sure the west doesn't feel the need for direct involvement. The west doesn't want to put troops in Ukraine the US doesn't even want to bother with Ukraine it's of know impittance to Obama administration. But here's where the problem is to Europe they are worried this could spread into the Balkans and eventually further. They don't have a clear plan on stopping this and without US to back them up aren't sure what to do.

Merkel is trying to figure out a next step she doesn't want comic troops knowing the fighting will escalate. So she's been waiting her time trying to negotiate with Putin. And frankly he's been playing her we see that in the Minsk agremments. Meanwhile in the UK they are about to draw there line in the sand here soon because they think France and Germany are clueless how to handle Putin. If this happens Obama may decide to start actively getting involved but it would be assisting the UK.

WWIII threats is all that Putin has going for him, and that's pretty much all that they are for the moment, threats. Germany and France are being played by Putin. Everytime they arrange a "Ceasefire", Russia aquires more territory. The US is taking notice, but doing very little so far. Is anybody else here reminded of WWII? When nobody really paid attention to a crazed dictator, up until it was too late. It's possible WWII never would have happened had the situation been dealt with before it got out of hand. I'm not saying that this will lead to WW3, but this is the type of thing that leads to world wars, especially in Europe.

Until and unless Russians in Baltics are badly treated, I do not think Kremlin would send the "little green men" show to Baltic nations.

Germany and France do not like to be dictated by US and UK. They also know that in the event matters go hot with Russia, the Europe as a battlefield theater will be most hurt. It has been there twice before so is not interested in any adventurism.

Quit comparing the current scenario with WWII. Hitler wrote the Mein Kempf in around 1919 and played it by that book mostly. However, when he started his expansion campaign, then UK and France told him where to stop. Poland was where the WWII started. NATO General Breedlove has openly said that "little green men" show cannot be allowed in Baltics, hence Kremlin will abide by that unless total ill treatment of Russians is taking place. Then probably Putin will supply arms and volunteer fighters. Any nation would to protect its ethinic people.

There is another speculation that Putin will try to show to world that NATO is not going to defend post 1991 members. Let that be speculation only. Putin will not risk war with stronger alliance for "offensive" reasons. What ever he is doing in Ukraine is "reacting" to an offense played out against Russian interests. Maidan and post events were like a pre-emptive attack on Moscow and that has to be undone.

What ever he is doing in Ukraine is "reacting" to an offense played out against Russian interests. Maidan and post events were like a pre-emptive attack on Moscow and that has to be undone.

Putin knows NATO will respond if the Baltics are messed with, and this includes him sending people over there to disrupt the Russian population, as he did in Ukraine. Of course this did not stop Putin from abducting an Estonia Border guard on Estonian soil. The Russians in E. Ukraine were never mistreated, until Putin decided to cause a civil war resulting in the deaths of thousands.

Germany and France are idiots, they'll disagree with another nation even if they know that nation is right. Also worth noting that it's been a year and their attempts at peace so far have failed. It's also worth nothing that Germany and France are the ones trying to convince the US not to send weapons to Ukraine, so in a sense, they are trying to tell the USA what to do, not the other way around.

I use WWII as a reference because it is the only reference that we have considering that Putin is threatening WW3. It also began when a dictator began land grabbing in other countries, and like you said, Europe just said, "No, please stop" just like Germany and France are telling Putin now. The reason the war started in Poland is because that was the first country that Hitler actually invaded in 1939, even though Czechoslovakia was already occupied. This was after the annexation of Austria. Not seeing the pattern? General Breedlove also told Putin to get out of Ukraine, so you think Putin will stay out of the Baltics just because Breedlove said so? If he hits the Baltics, he'll do so by disrupting the Russian population there, giving him an excuse, just like Ukraine. Even though, what happens across nation borders is really none of Putin's business. And yes, a country may want to protect its ethic population, but there are rules to follow. Several American citizens have been killed overseas, but America doesn't go to war for each and every one of them. Unlike being on American soil, we know that those people are there by choice and knew that they would lose many protections by leaving the American homeland.

How could this have been a pre-emptive attack on Moscow when it took place in a completely different and soveriegn nation? So Russia can basically say, "We don't like your new government, it is against our interests, so we're going to cause instability and invade." New evidence was released yesterday that claims that the Kremlin had the annexation of Crimea and unstability in E. Ukraine planned days before the president was ousted shortly after Maidan began. It also indicates that Russia called for the protestors to be shot. See this link for details on this document

The only thing Maiden changed was the fact that Russia could no longer control Ukraine, a sovereign nation. Russia's main interests were that Ukraine still manufactured many of Russia's weapons parts. This is a failure on Russia's part for not planning ahead and acquiring other methods of manufacturing outside of Ukraine. So this isn't about protecting Russians, this is about losing control of a nation whose population began leaning more towards European support.

As for the ethnic Russians in Ukraine, they choose to live in Ukraine, and Putin has no business in Ukraine, period. They didn't even ask for Putin's help, Putin just assumed at some point in the future their rights would be in violation. The Russian speakers just today in Mariupol, are currently digging ditches and setting up defenses to keep Russia and the Rebels out of the city. These same people stated on television that they do not want to do part of Russia and they want Russia to stay out of their country (Ukraine). A person's opinion and political affiliation can't be judged just by the language that they speak. Putin's need to protect these people is just an excuse.

originally posted by: JonStone
WWIII threats is all that Putin has going for him, and that's pretty much all that they are for the moment, threats. Germany and France are being played by Putin. Everytime they arrange a "Ceasefire", Russia aquires more territory. The US is taking notice, but doing very little so far. Is anybody else here reminded of WWII? When nobody really paid attention to a crazed dictator, up until it was too late. It's possible WWII never would have happened had the situation been dealt with before it got out of hand. I'm not saying that this will lead to WW3, but this is the type of thing that leads to world wars, especially in Europe.

Trust me when I say Europe has noticed the similarities everyone knows the game Putin is playing. What there counting on is Russia will go bankrupt again this will of course get people to turn on putler. Everyone's hoping the Russians will clean there own house Without outside intervention. If that doesn't happen every month is causing Russian economy to spiral out of control. It's alot worse than people think. It's having effects on all Russians as inflation climbs and the Ruble falls each and every week.This is just like that leaked document from the Kremlin they knew financially the cost would be high. But they never counted on sanctions destroying the value of the Ruble. More and more Russians are investing in other currencies and large ticket items to sell later when they need money.

Putin has made it easy to contain Russia because he is killing their economy. They already had to shrink the budget wait until the big cuts come. They are paying people to fight in Ukraine spending huge money to equip them and even if they keep the territory the industry and labor force that made it valuable are gone.

a reply to: dragonridr

I wish I had the money at the time to bet the US Dollar against the Rubel. I would be a very happy man right now had I been able to make that investment. I did one of those simulated trade deals and invested 5000 simulated dollars gainst the rubel, had I actually done that for real, I would have made over 100,000 dollars in just about a month! Probably too late now.

a reply to: JonStone

I will stay clear of the WWII comparison.

Americans have abducted many Russian citizens abroad and jailed them. Jailing an Estonian border guard who conducted some illegal act would be similar platform.

They didn't even ask for Putin's help, Putin just assumed at some point in the future their rights would be in violation.

That is HogWash. It has been a year since the crisis started. Do your homework first before posting own opinions.
Ukes artillery destroys the whole towns where it has to retreat. Go figure who is committing war crimes on people in E. Ukraine.

So Russia can basically say, "We don't like your new government, it is against our interests, so we're going to cause instability and invade."

US would react the same if ISIS or Communist government came to power in Mexico. The roots of the problems are in the NATO expansion going on since 1991. Russia has to react at some point. Regarding plans released, every nations has dozens on plans for scenarios taking place in and around the world. Getting paws on some discarded plan does not mean that was the official line of Kremlin.

It's also worth nothing that Germany and France are the ones trying to convince the US not to send weapons to Ukraine, so in a sense, they are trying to tell the USA what to do, not the other way around.

Germans and French know what it means to be bombed and shelled. Americans do not so far. They are just trying to avoid an escalation of the situation. Ok, send arms to Ukes and Kiev will fall within a month. War mongering from distance is good only in front of the TV channels.

As for the ethnic Russians in Ukraine, they choose to live in Ukraine, and Putin has no business in Ukraine, period.

These Russians have lived in East Ukraine for 100s of years. Kiev Junta has no business telling them to move to Russia or elsewhere because they do not like Nazi Junta curbing their rights to languages, culture and customs.

Putin should declare that NovoRossiya once freed up will have an option to join Russia via general population's majority voting. That will protect these ethinic Russians from any attacks from fascist forces.

a reply to: dragonridr

Just found out today, Energy sources are only 20% of the Russian economy. Rest is people conducting services, commodities etc. Saudi economy is 50% energy based on the other hand.

All the equipment or rather majority of it sent to Russia was bound for scrap anyways. The T-55, T-64 and old T-72 are not even worth $100K each and were in the storage all along. Same for artillery guns and btw in Russia Ak-47s can be bought for barely $150 each.

www.foreignaffairs.com...

Should the United States Arm Ukraine?

18 out of 27 Geo-political Experts Disagreed.

Americans have abducted many Russian citizens abroad and jailed them. Jailing an Estonian border guard who conducted some illegal act would be similar platform.

The following investigation clearly showed the Russians coming over the Estonian border and kidnapping the agent on Estonian territory. As for America, yes we will jail Russian "Spies", which usually get sent back home. If they happen to not be spies, then they are still jailed until they can be deported for violating our imigration laws. If you know of any other examples that do not include these, then you're going to have to link me to the news report, RT doesn't count.

That is HogWash. It has been a year since the crisis started. Do your homework first before posting own opinions.
Ukes artillery destroys the whole towns where it has to retreat. Go figure who is committing war crimes on people in E. Ukraine.

I have been following this crisis since January of last year almost daily. It is kind of difficult not to hit civilians when Russian Rebels fire from and hide inside the civilian population. I've seen videos of Pro-Russians clearly shelling from inside residential areas with high hopes that the Ukraine military would respond in kind. They literally baited the Ukraine military by hiding behind innocent civilians.

US would react the same if ISIS or Communist government came to power in Mexico. The roots of the problems are in the NATO expansion going on since 1991. Russia has to react at some point. Regarding plans released, every nations has dozens on plans for scenarios taking place in and around the world. Getting paws on some discarded plan does not mean that was the official line of Kremlin.

Hahahahahaha, Mexico has had several corrupt governments over the years, the US never did a thing about it. Many Americans died there as a result of the drug cartels....we complained, but we did not invade Mexico over it. These were not just American "Speaking", they were actual Americans. I don't need the alleged "Document" to state my claims, Putin's actions and the timing of those actions are reason enough to believe that he's the one acting in agression. I knew all I needed to know long before it came out. Putin might be a liar, but he's not a very good one, except maybe when lying to his own people. He's obviously got them convinced, but I guess that's easy when he controls everything they see and hear.

Germans and French know what it means to be bombed and shelled. Americans do not so far. They are just trying to avoid an escalation of the situation. Ok, send arms to Ukes and Kiev will fall within a month. War mongering from distance is good only in front of the TV channels.

So you never heard of Pearl Harbor or the 9/11 attacks? America is no stranger to war. If it wasn't for America, then it's possible most the world would be speaking German right now. Russia likes to say we support Nazi's when in fact, we helped to win the war against them. Not to mention all of the American Embassies that have been bombed over the years abroud. Germans and French "Knowing what it's like to be bombed" is only evidence of a history of poor judgement, the same judgement being used in Ukraine. It may have more to do with the fact that both those countries have reduced military spending by so much, that they actually fear Russia now. It may also be possible that Merkel and Hollande, are simply idiots.

These Russians have lived in East Ukraine for 100s of years. Kiev Junta has no business telling them to move to Russia or elsewhere because they do not like Nazi Junta curbing their rights to languages, culture and customs.

Putin should declare that NovoRossiya once freed up will have an option to join Russia via general population's majority voting. That will protect these ethinic Russians from any attacks from fascist forces.

There you go with the Junta business again, I thought we had this settled. Nazis invaded other countries, who exactly is doing the invading in this situation? They are the Government, it is within their power to determine Ukraine's official language. If a person lives in America, and he decides that he doesn't like it, then he or she leaves. Even if you are correct about it being none of Kyiv's Business (Even though it IS THERE COUNTRY TO RUN), it certainly is no business of Russia's. On the Nazi thing (Again), you complain about America supporting Nazi's, yet you forget who we lost tens of thousands of soldiers fighting. No wonder you don't want to hear any references to WWII. Had the US not taken up the slack against the Nazi's, then it's quite possible that Russia would not have been able to fight them off after they invaded Russia. I can understand why Putin decided to brainwash its people into thinking that, "The Nazi's are coming" since history shows that the Nazi's did a great deal of damage before they were finally stopped. But in the end, the Nazi's were defeated by both the Soviet Union AND the United States. I doubt that they've been hiding on the moon or in the center of the Earth plotting for Nazi revenge. The swastika is considered Taboo in the United States. I highly doubt the US would support the Ukraine Government if they were affilated with these defeated Nazi's.

As for Putin and NovoRossiya, Putin has no business there. You stating that just backs up the fact that he's an invader. Besides, we all know how Putin's "Majority Voting" works. If he was really concerned about the ethnic Russians there, then he simply would have granted any Russia from Ukraine who chooses to come to Russia citizenship. It's funny though that over half of the Russian speaking Refugees caught in the conflict are running West towards Kyiv, not East towards Russia. Wow, RT really has you brainwashed.

27 Experts? Wow, we usually do it in the hundreds, but that's still only 66%, pretty close. But honestly, it's all over the place. Some think tanks think Ukraine should be armed, some think not. For every poll that says we should not arm Ukraine, I can find one that says the opposite. The US hasn't made a decision yet on this. It may not have to since Ukraine seems to have acquired arms from another source. I personally think that we should arm Ukraine to the teeth, but I say that about any nation being attacked by a big bully. Based on your own opinions though, which are ever so clear in your recent posts, I can see why you would not want this to happen. Ukraine is only trying to defend their own territory, at least they are willing to fight for it unlike some nations, nor do I see Ukraine trying to invade anybody else's territory.