Why did God, in foreknowledge of man, still create man?

a reply to: TzarChasm

All I can do is speculate. We're here because we're part of His plan. His plan seems to be to create a perfect system, and He seems to want us to choose that system. In order to achieve that, He needs us to go through all that we go through in order to decide for ourselves which way we want to go. Will we see the wisdom of His system or turn away? He wants the ones who see His way.

It's like He's steaming the shellfish, and He's only going to keep the ones that will open. The rest would poison the final result.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

Most likely what I was told, but much of what I've been told I measure according to logic and reason, and thus find truth therein.

I do not believe everything I have been told, but as for sin, I see evidence for sin in the conscience of man, and also in the consequences of sinful actions.

If you see a just man, he is not just because he radiates indifference to sinful actions, he is just and shows the Peace in his soul which comes from innocence.

To say that sin is all in the mind, is to say very much and take account of very little.

originally posted by: backcase
a reply to: windword

the idea that there is no sin I find to be perfected in the teachings of Friedrich Nietzsche. These ideas and concepts were inspiration for some less than virtuous fellows in the socialist party.

I cannot help but think that sin is a real thing as justice is a real thing, if it is not, then life is a lie.

I assume that you are making the traditional error of calling the Nazis socialists. They were nationalists and opposed socialists. I refer you to history. Sin is an offense against God. No God = no sin. That does not mean that people do not cause harm.

a reply to: Tangerine

Forgive me for my mistake. As for sin, there are many offenses which grieve God, including an offense of man against man, and even man against himself.

Evidence that sin exists is evidence that God exists, but since many want to deny that God exists they realize that they must also deny sin.

originally posted by: backcase
a reply to: Tangerine

Forgive me for my mistake. As for sin, there are many offenses which grieve God, including an offense of man against man, and even man against himself.

Evidence that sin exists is evidence that God exists, but since many want to deny that God exists they realize that they must also deny sin.

You've got it backward. Sin is a religious term. Defining something as a sin is not evidence that God exists. When you can cite testable evidence that God exists, no one will be able to deny it. Why don't you do that/

a reply to: Tangerine

You see my profile picture? That is an actual photograph taken by my grandmother's friend in Yugoslavia where the virgin Mary was said to have appeared. There is another and they are both in my possession, but I don't know how you would test them. The other picture shows her whole figure, a picture was taken off a bush and when developed she was in the pictures.

originally posted by: backcase
a reply to: Tangerine

You see my profile picture? That is an actual photograph taken by my grandmother's friend in Yugoslavia where the virgin Mary was said to have appeared. There is another and they are both in my possession, but I don't know how you would test them. The other picture shows her whole figure, a picture was taken off a bush and when developed she was in the pictures.

OK, but how would a picture prove the existence of God? A picture only proves the existence of the picture, itself. For the sake of argument, let's say that an apparition appeared and was photographed and that is not disputed. How would even that prove the existence of God? I'm really trying to understand.

a reply to: Tangerine

Why do you even bother man? I like to read write and speak about God. It makes me happy. If you do not believe in God why do you continue to busy yourself with thought of Him?

I don't know what you want, and I don't think I can tell you what you want to hear. To me it seems you either want me to denounce my faith or appear to you with Christ and some examination equipment. Conversations to no where. Eh.

originally posted by: backcase
a reply to: Tangerine

Why do you even bother man? I like to read write and speak about God. It makes me happy. If you do not believe in God why do you continue to busy yourself with thought of Him?

I don't know what you want, and I don't think I can tell you what you want to hear. To me it seems you either want me to denounce my faith or appear to you with Christ and some examination equipment. Conversations to no where. Eh.

What I want is for you to distinguish between belief and fact. You're welcome to hold any belief but if you want to talk about it, present it as belief not fact. When you can cite testable evidence making it fact it will no longer be belief. It will be fact. Is that really so difficult?

a reply to: Tangerine

It is belief... Did you read the forum description? You keep harassing people who believe as if you want them to state that their beliefs are not true. You think that beliefs cannot be true? you think that experience cannot be true? Although now it is called a belief, it will soon be neglected to be called a fact because this fact will be so well known that there will be no one who does not know.

originally posted by: backcase
a reply to: Tangerine

It is belief... Did you read the forum description? You keep harassing people who believe as if you want them to state that their beliefs are not true. You think that beliefs cannot be true? you think that experience cannot be true? Although now it is called a belief, it will soon be neglected to be called a fact because this fact will be so well known that there will be no one who does not know.

The forum topic does not determine whether the posts are presented as beliefs or as facts. The posters do that.

I will explain AGAIN: beliefs are never facts. When testable evidence proves that something is fact, it ceases to be a belief. Do not confuse truth with fact. Truth is a belief and there are many beliefs.

Here's a test: If something you are about to present is based on testable evidence, it's a fact. If it's not based on testable evidence, it's a belief. It's actually quite simple.

God foresaw the flaws of Man, & thought it would be hilarious to watch us squabble about paradoxes we have no way of validating.

originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: backcase
You know, I get real tired of hearing how wretched, I and my fellow human beings are. We are a species still going through the stages of social evolution. We still have a lot to learn about ourselves, the world we live on, and our place in the universe. But eventually, we'll grow up. And when that day comes, psychopaths and social engineers won't be running this world any longer.

I just realized why I like you as a person.. we have each been where the other is, just at different ends of our life.

I did the humanist thing, back when I was a teenager actually. I couldn't figure out what was so evil about me, why did I have to cover up and hide even my body.. If God created me then what was everyone saying I was evil for?

The second I was out of my parents house and in my own I went to my own extreme for a bit.. I refused to wear any clothing whatsoever in my house for a while.. went through that whole if God created me then I cannot be evil thing..

But here is the thing.. I did grow up.. and I realized that while some people can take things too far, there is a reason for the things religions teach.

It doesn't matter if you are buddist, hindu, atheist, agnostic, christian whatever.. there is one thing we all have in common. We ALL believe that life is about learning, growing, and betterment of self. While everyone uses different words for the same thing, the end result is the same.

Striving toward our betterment. In christianity, things are called "evil" while in another believe system such as atheist, things are called "bad" or simply "not better or not good for society"

"Whether things will be better if they are different, I do not know, but that they will have to be different if they are to become better, that I do know."

-- Georg Christoph Lichtenberg

To use the word evil is no different, it just sounds harsher to our ears. But the thing is, we... we we we we we.. are the ones who make this world bad.. from the greedy 1%'ers to people who want what their neighbors have so they go to war and kill people for it, to those who sit and slander others..

we make this world a bad place, collectively. Now, in order to effect true and lasting change, it starts at home, one person at a time.



Watch the whole video, because there are things to read in it, even though its a song..

Christianity teaches us how... how, is important. We ALL know why.. but we need help with how - or else we would be doing it.

So don't disparage the word usage so much, but see instead the truth of it. It is to help us.. if we use it as that help, and see it as a help and a truth, its does help us, when used correctly.

a reply to: Eunuchorn

To which end?

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: TzarChasm

All I can do is speculate. We're here because we're part of His plan. His plan seems to be to create a perfect system, and He seems to want us to choose that system. In order to achieve that, He needs us to go through all that we go through in order to decide for ourselves which way we want to go. Will we see the wisdom of His system or turn away? He wants the ones who see His way.

It's like He's steaming the shellfish, and He's only going to keep the ones that will open. The rest would poison the final result.

why do we have to be eaten? what if we want to be thrown back in the water?

a reply to: TzarChasm

Plants eat water and minerals and thus the minerals and plants ascend higher and become a part of the plant. Animals and insects eat plants and so too the plants ascend higher. So too we humans must become fully spiritual and dissolve and meld with the sublimity that is God.

originally posted by: backcase
a reply to: TzarChasm

Plants eat water and minerals and thus the minerals and plants ascend higher and become a part of the plant. Animals and insects eat plants and so too the plants ascend higher. So too we humans must become fully spiritual and dissolve and meld with the sublimity that is God.

assimilation is not ascension. nothing ascends, you just become part of a very disgusting process where molecules are stripped apart and sorted into waste and fuel. at best, your remains spend 100+ years being slowly consumed by bacteria in a polished wooden box until the box breaks down too. in 1,000 years your grave will be forgotten. you'll be lucky if there is a picture left to remember you by.

ascension...sure. you go ahead and call it that.

a reply to: TzarChasm

Notice that the Christ became food for us so that we may may ascend. There was a turning in the process where out of humility God served us as the plants and animals serve us, but gave us spiritual food instead of animal food so that we can be spiritual men instead of animal men.

a reply to: backcase

"out of humility" humility? none of the abrahamic or judaic or islamic deities are humble. the whole point of a theocracy is that they wield their sovereign power to do whatever the hell they please. the first and last voice they consider is their own. any "spiritual food" provided is to protect their investment, to keep them in control. and thats the sort of mentality we are conditioned to answer to. be it god or government, we are a commodity. just like shellfish.

a reply to: OpinionatedB

I just realized why I like you as a person.. we have each been where the other is, just at different ends of our life.

There seems to be at least some amount truth to that.

"Whether things will be better if they are different, I do not know, but that they will have to be different if they are to become better, that I do know."
Georg Christoph Lichtenberg

Good quote. I would add this one to it...


Love the video. It reminds me of this...