Christians, are violent old testament verses relevant to your beliefs today?

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: WarminIndy

Until the baby is born, that baby is part of the mother's body. I think abortion should have a cut off date or whatever, but to outlaw it completely isn't the right way to go in my opinion. There are situations that an abortion is a good thing for the baby.

I am just saying this, any person has the ultimate right to do what they want, and they are going to do what they want anyway, but they should ask the state to help them and they should be honest about why they are really doing it.

The baby did nothing to deserve the death, so why punish it?

And that baby is also genetically a part of the father, regardless of whether or not the mother carries it. A human is a human that is comprised genetically of the mother and the father.

a reply to: WarminIndy

Just as "God" is the sovereign lord of "Israel", and does do anything to protect its divine state, each individual is the sovereign lord over their body (Israel) and has the same rights to protect its body (Israel) as the biblical God has over "Israel".

a reply to: WarminIndy

What makes you think an abortion is anymore a punishment than what god did in the OT? You justify one but vilify the other.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: WarminIndy

Quit trying to justify what god did, if you disagree with abortion then you MUST disagree with what god did. What god did was much more brutal. He had children attacked by a bear and mauled to death, that's even more brutal than cutting up an unborn, unconscious body.

And we live in 2015, and show me the statement of justification.

I am saying to you that by approving brutal abortions in the name of "women's rights" or "a woman's choice" or "rape and incest" and to sacrifice that baby for those reasons is genocidal.

Tell me, is it not a sacrifice when a woman says "I just don't want a baby now, so get rid of it" or "this baby will ruin my life and opportunity, so get rid of it" or "this baby is the result of rape or incest, so get rid of it". THAT is sacrifice.

But hey, if I told you that Molech was the god they sacrificed those babies to in the OT, would you believe me about the horrors and brutality of that god Molech?

Wait, God punished those Hebrews who fell into worship of Molech. But here's the thing, the Law of Reciprocity, what goes around, comes around. And if you believe in karma, same thing.

And if karma means that you will receive according punishment for your actions, then karma is going to bite people hard one day.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: WarminIndy

Just as "God" is the sovereign lord of "Israel", and does do anything to protect its divine state, each individual is the sovereign lord over their body (Israel) and has the same rights to protect its body (Israel) as the biblical God has over "Israel".

Did you just say Israel is sovereign lord over Israel?

Then ask the Jews that question.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: WarminIndy

What makes you think an abortion is anymore a punishment than what god did in the OT? You justify one but vilify the other.

Wow, you can't seem to admit you know what happens during an abortion.

Brutality, genocide...that's what happens and you know it. So tell me how it is ok in your world view?

And show me where I justified God. Can you point it out?

What I DID say was that as the OT was written by JEWS and NOT Christians, ask the Jews that question. Christians didn't write it and are not obligated to it, soooooo...ask the Jews.

a reply to: rokkuman

Go find a Jewish man and see what he has to say about the Torah, They will have the best answer. When was the last time Jews threw a baby onto a rock?

But i'm confused are you just attacking Christians or does your hate spread to all religion?

originally posted by: JDmOKI
a reply to: rokkuman

Go find a Jewish man and see what he has to say about the Torah, They will have the best answer. When was the last time Jews threw a baby onto a rock?

But i'm confused are you just attacking Christians or does your hate spread to all religion?

Exactly, they ask the question of Christians who had NOTHING to do with Torah. But we are expected to give an answer for something we had nothing to do with.

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: rokkuman

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: rokkuman

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: WarminIndy

Nope, WHAT sin did the baby commit to deserve the death sentence of abortion?

The same sin that everyone that deserves death committed, in God's eyes. Again, the God of the Old Testament ordered abortions.

So you agree with God that you are permitted to have an abortion? So if God said it was ok, then wouldn't you be agreeing with God?

And by extension that would imply that you would be in agreement with abortionists.

Yes or no, do you agree with God or not that abortions are ok?

If abortions are ok, then apparently you have no disagreement with the OT.

So what's the problem?

First off, I do not regard the bible so don't bother asking me questions about God.

Secondly if baby slaughter in the OT is okay, then apparently you have no disagreement with abortionists, which I guess is a good thing.

Third, what about killing old people and children and women in the bible? Biblical violence also includes that.
Or did you think you could derail this discussion by making it an argument about abortion?

But I suppose in your world, it is ok to denounce God for your very own perspective of violence. So you are ok promoting violence while at the same time denouncing it?

No, I am just glad I have finally seen a Christian who agrees with abortionists.

a reply to: WarminIndy

What did those innocent children have to do with Moloch or any of the sacrifices being made in his name? Was it the adults doing and understanding what they were doing or was it the children who didn't have any notion of what sacrifice meant?

God's reason for doing the things he did in the OT don't hold up to scrutiny. You are willing to question someone gettig an abortion but not someone who is killing millions of people. That's like worshipping Stalin but hating, well, an abortionist.

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: JDmOKI
a reply to: rokkuman

Go find a Jewish man and see what he has to say about the Torah, They will have the best answer. When was the last time Jews threw a baby onto a rock?

But i'm confused are you just attacking Christians or does your hate spread to all religion?

Exactly, they ask the question of Christians who had NOTHING to do with Torah. But we are expected to give an answer for something we had nothing to do with.

If Christians have NOTHING to do with Torah, what are you doing with it? Rip it out of your "scripture".

And yes you have to answer for it because you are the ones calling it your "holy" book while passing around tracts saying God is loving when in reality your "holy" book depicts God as a baby killer.

originally posted by: JDmOKI
a reply to: rokkuman

...does your hate spread to all religion?

Yes.

a reply to: WarminIndy

You still believe in the same god as the Jews and accept that a good god ordered the slaughter of innocent children. The burden lies on you just as much as a Jew.

Also, Jesus said that he didn't come to abolish the law, so what do you mean Christians aren't obligated to it?

a reply to: WarminIndy

Did you just say Israel is sovereign lord over Israel?

No. I'm saying that the relationship between the "Lord God" and "Israel" is allegorical. I am as much the sovereign lord over my body, Isreal, as the "Lord God" of the Bible is over "Israel".

a reply to: rokkuman

Well.... I'm done with this crap thread. You're obviously trying to throw rocks and I'm replying to someone with an upfront hate for people with different views. The hypocrisy is strong here.

To answer your question the OT is contrary to the message of Jesus hence his message. I can't imagine Jesus throwing a baby against a rock, can you or does your hate blind you into ignorance like Evangelical Christians?

originally posted by: JDmOKI
a reply to: rokkuman

I can't imagine Jesus throwing a baby against a rock,

Neither can I.

So why is the verse about smashing babies against rocks in the bible in the first place?

a reply to: rokkuman

The OT is very much an eye for and eye type of message. The Babylonians took Jewish babies and threw them onto rocks and the Jews wished this for the Babylonians and that God would be pleased with this act. Jesus was a turn the other cheek type of message

originally posted by: rokkuman

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: rokkuman

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: rokkuman

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: WarminIndy

Nope, WHAT sin did the baby commit to deserve the death sentence of abortion?

The same sin that everyone that deserves death committed, in God's eyes. Again, the God of the Old Testament ordered abortions.

So you agree with God that you are permitted to have an abortion? So if God said it was ok, then wouldn't you be agreeing with God?

And by extension that would imply that you would be in agreement with abortionists.

Yes or no, do you agree with God or not that abortions are ok?

If abortions are ok, then apparently you have no disagreement with the OT.

So what's the problem?

First off, I do not regard the bible so don't bother asking me questions about God.

Secondly if baby slaughter in the OT is okay, then apparently you have no disagreement with abortionists, which I guess is a good thing.

Third, what about killing old people and children and women in the bible? Biblical violence also includes that.
Or did you think you could derail this discussion by making it an argument about abortion?

But I suppose in your world, it is ok to denounce God for your very own perspective of violence. So you are ok promoting violence while at the same time denouncing it?

No, I am just glad I have finally seen a Christian who agrees with abortionists.

I don't agree with abortionists, but I will say this, people will do what people will do, I can't stop them if they want an abortion.

They will find wire hangars if they can't find a clinic. But the STATE should not be funding it.

Then maybe God is karma.


You reap what you sow.

originally posted by: JDmOKI
a reply to: rokkuman

The OT is very much an eye for and eye type of message. The Babylonians took Jewish babies and threw them onto rocks and the Jews wished this for the Babylonians and that God would be pleased with this act. Jesus was a turn the other cheek type of message

So the bit about smashing the enemies babies was not commanded by God? Phew, good.

What about the verses where God directly orders the killing of women, kids, infants and old people?