Christians, are violent old testament verses relevant to your beliefs today?

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: orangetom1999

It's your choice to make this about Noah. I threw in Noah as a final thought. My post was about Job, who God said was perfect and John the Baptist, who Jesus claimed was the greatest man ever! Then of course, in the Bible, in which you say there are no good men, we have Jesus, who was "good".


There is good in the world and there are good people in the world, but once again, Christians see no good in life or in the I know that Christians want to think that the whole world is evil, but again, I refer you to Genesis 1, where God said "It is good".

world around them. It's their justification for hoping and praying for the prophesied doom, gloom and destruction.

Perfect and the greatest man ever...is not the same thing as good. You seem to be having difficulty with this concept.

and this..

I know that Christians want to think that the whole world is evil, but again, I refer you to Genesis 1, where God said "It is good"

Now Genesis 1 is talking about Gods Creation..and before the fall of man. This is the Creation of God and it was indeed good. But if you notice after the fall ..the whole system changed...even the animals...changed because of fallen man who was exiled from the garden....where everything was good...by Gods Creation.
Fallen man is something different.

There are two different philosophies at work out here.

One says that man is fallen and cannot redeem himself or make himself good..no matter what he does or how much he educates himself....he cannot do it. Man cannot save himself. This is What is contained in the Word..from the Olde Testament unto the New Testament.

The other philosophy/religious belief..says man can save himself because he is a naturally good creature and can educate himself unto good works..and can therefore advance in degrees in the wisdom of this world...unto his own salvation...man is the determiner...he is the apex creature in this whole plan. Man can save himself..by his works.

This is " The Ever War. " And it has gone on from the Garden unto today..right now.


The Ever War...

midnight-emissary.com...


Hope this helps some of you...

Orangetom

originally posted by: orangetom1999
originally posted by: windword
a reply to: orangetom1999

orangetom1999: There are two different philosophies at work out here.
One says that man is fallen and cannot redeem himself or make himself good..no matter what he does or how much he educates himself....he cannot do it. Man cannot save himself. This is What is contained in the Word..from the Olde Testament unto the New Testament.

Assuming man actually fell (sneaky blame game players those angelic creatures).

orangetom1999: The other philosophy/religious belief..says man can save himself because he is a naturally good creature and can educate himself unto good works..and can therefore advance in degrees in the wisdom of this world...unto his own salvation...man is the determiner...he is the apex creature in this whole plan. Man can save himself..by his works.

We are speaking of eloquence; Daniel Webster demonstrated this in his arguments with the Devil defending the human's right to existence (fiction but rings true), as did Sir Thomas Moore in parliamentary debates; regarding his own defense at Kings council before he was beheaded. I agree with latter as I have faith in human ingenuity (when are we going to realize if we are not adding to the profitability/gain/positive growth of the universe; this will be abandoned as yet another failed Civilization experiment #201) to tiresomely be attempted again: first philosophy comes into play here, "Man is doomed to fail" (there is no hope).

a reply to: orangetom1999

Perfect and the greatest man ever...is not the same thing as good.

Yes it is. You're nit picking.

Job was a perfect and upright man, and you're saying he wasn't good? Nope. If John the Baptist was greater than any man, then he was greater than Job, who was perfect. Jesus was good, and he told people to be "perfect". Jesus also said that he "didn't come for the righteous", indicating that Jesus thought that there were righteous people who already knew what was what. Jesus also explained the ways of the born again when he said "such is it for everyone who is born of the spirit", indicating that there were people who were "born again" without Jesus having to explain how to them.

Righteous, perfect and born again people are good people.

As for Genesis, it says NOWHERE that God changed the "goodness" of all that he created when Adam and Eve ate the fruit. Adam and Eve, supposedly, learn about good and evil. Goodness never disappeared. The story merely claims that Adam and Eve KNEW about good and evil.

Jewish tradition teaches that salvation is earned through good works.

9"But if you on your part warn a wicked man to turn from his way and he does not turn from his way, he will die in his iniquity, but you have delivered your life.
Ezekiel 33:8

And through offerings and sacrifice.

In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the Lord. 4 And Abel also brought an offering—fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock.
.....

Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”

I don't even want to get into a discussion about the futility of participating in a celestial holy war between God and Satan.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: orangetom1999

Perfect and the greatest man ever...is not the same thing as good.

Yes it is. You're nit picking.

Job was a perfect and upright man, and you're saying he wasn't good? Nope. If John the Baptist was greater than any man, then he was greater than Job, who was perfect. Jesus was good, and he told people to be "perfect". Jesus also said that he "didn't come for the righteous", indicating that Jesus thought that there were righteous people who already knew what was what. Jesus also explained the ways of the born again when he said "such is it for everyone who is born of the spirit", indicating that there were people who were "born again" without Jesus having to explain how to them.

Righteous, perfect and born again people are good people.

As for Genesis, it says NOWHERE that God changed the "goodness" of all that he created when Adam and Eve ate the fruit. Adam and Eve, supposedly, learn about good and evil. Goodness never disappeared. The story merely claims that Adam and KNEW about good and evil.

Jewish tradition teaches that salvation is earned through good works.

9"But if you on your part warn a wicked man to turn from his way and he does not turn from his way, he will die in his iniquity, but you have delivered your life.
Ezekiel 33:8

And through offerings and sacrifice.

In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the Lord. 4 And Abel also brought an offering—fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock.
.....

Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”

I don't even want to get into a discussion about the futility of participating in a celestial holy war between God and Satan.

Wow!!!!

Orangetom

a reply to: orangetom1999

If we "know" good then we can be good.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: orangetom1999

If we "know" good then we can be good.

Wow!!!!

Windword,

Job was a perfect and upright man, and you're saying he wasn't good? Nope. If John the Baptist was greater than any man, then he was greater than Job, who was perfect.

It says they were perfect...not good...and good is whatever God says is good...not what man interprets to be good.

as to this..

Jesus was good, and he told people to be "perfect". Jesus also said that he "didn't come for the righteous", indicating that Jesus thought that there were righteous people who already knew what was what. Jesus also explained the ways of the born again when he said "such is it for everyone who is born of the spirit", indicating that there were people who were "born again" without Jesus having to explain how to them.

Jesus was the Word which took on flesh..and we beheld His Glory...not our glory. This makes Him God who took on flesh and walked among us. And again.. God determines who or what is good..not men.
And people are born again by the Will of the Father...not of works...but by His Will and Him putting His Spirit into us..to make us acceptable to Him. Those He Chose..for chosen people do not choose. They are chosen. He does the choosing.


Wow!!

Righteous, perfect and born again people are good people.

He came to save sinners ...for all have sinned and come short of the Glory. Righteous..is one of His names among many ..such as ..Life. Blood, Redeemer, Salvation, Peace, among many of HIs names.

We are saved if He chose us and covered us with his Redeeming Blood. When we stand before Him..He had better see the Blood covering us..not anything we have done..but His Redeeming Blood on us. For without His Blood ..we have no Hope which is another of His names.

This is called Soverign Grace...and unmerited gift ..one for which we on our own merits do not deserve.
This is not an entitlement program as is so popular today.

As for Genesis, it says NOWHERE that God changed the "goodness" of all that he created when Adam and Eve ate the fruit. Adam and Eve, supposedly, learn about good and evil. Goodness never disappeared. The story merely claims that Adam and KNEW about good and evil.

What ???? Surely you jest here??? "Dying thou shalt die!!!!"

This was a significant change...and it applies to us today. DO you not know that aging is a sign of fallen man???
Dying ye shalt die!!

Jewish tradition teaches that salvation is earned through good works.

And through offerings and sacrifice.

Yes I know what Jewish Tradition teaches as do other in other religions and dogmas.

For what you constantly quote here in your posts is Olde Testament tradition. And much of Jewish Tradition is from the Talmud..not from the Olde Testament.

Jesus never taught from the Talmud...but from the Olde Testament.

and furthermore ..the Olde Testament is of bondage..not of the free woman. The Olde Testament is of Ishmael..and not of Isaac.

Do you not know of this distinction..in Galatians chapter 4 concerning the difference In the Olde Testament and the New Testament.

As Christians we are to know the Olde Testament to know what came before. But we are not of that bondage..not of the bondwoman and her son ..Ishmael..but iin Isaac shall thy seed be called.

It is that simple.

For I am not an Ishmaelite

Thanks,
Orangetom

a reply to: orangetom1999

For what you constantly quote here in your posts is Olde Testament tradition. And much of Jewish Tradition is from the Talmud..not from the Olde Testament.

Everything I quoted is from the Old Testament, and much of it from the Torah. I have quoted NOTHING from the Talmud. The Talmud is a document from the Christian era. The Old Testament doesn't support Original Sin!

Goodness was never an issue in the Garden of Eden. As I stated before, and which you ignored, Adam and Eve KNEW GOOD and evil. If they can "know" goodness they "be" good! Sheesh!

And people are born again by the Will of the Father...not of works...but by His Will and Him putting His Spirit into us..to make us acceptable to Him.

Who are you going to believe, Paul or God? God told Cain that if he DOES what's "right" he will be accepted.

As Christians we are to know the Olde Testament to know what came before. But we are not of that bondage

I guess we can chuck the 10 Commandments then, as well as all the prophecies!

Jesus was the Word which took on flesh..and we beheld His Glory...not our glory.

Jesus never claimed to be GOD or the WORD! That was something that was written later, by whoever authored the Book of John, and is a direct rip-off from the "LOGOS" proposed by the Jewish/Hellinist philosopher Philo of Alexandia, which was the pop-culture trend of the time. SOURCE

Believing that there is no good in the people of the world, or in the world itself is NOT supported by the Old Testament or Jewish tradition. Christianity supports Original Sin and teaches that there is no good in people or in world because of Paul, the infiltrator and the liar, not because of what Jesus taught.

I'll leave you with this:

The Parable of the Good Samaritan
25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’[a]; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”

28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

30 In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two denarii[c] and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’

36 “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”

37 The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”

Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”

WORKS!

windword,

Everything I quoted is from the Old Testament, and much of it from the Torah. I have quoted NOTHING from the Talmud. The Talmud is a document from the Christian era. The Old Testament doesn't support Original Sin!

Negative..the Talmud was known and practiced in an oral tradition before it was written down. It was written down in the Christian era but was known long before that ...even when the Children of Israel came into contact with it in captivity.

The example of the woman caught in adultery in John 8 is a textbook example of a Talmud. A set of rules for getting around the rules.

Doing as the nations around them were doing in defilement is what got the Children of Israel into trouble over and over and by 70 ad they had completely lost the land.

Goodness was never an issue in the Garden of Eden. As I stated before, and which you ignored, Adam and Eve KNEW GOOD and evil. If they can "know" goodness they "be" good! Sheesh!

But were they good??? Sheesh..nothing. Were they good. Is that why they were kicked out of the garden...because they were good?? I need a degree in rocket science to figure this one out...it is just so difficult.

Who are you going to believe, Paul or God? God told Cain that if he DOES what's "right" he will be accepted.

I will believe Paul because he was very very knowledgeable in the Olde Testament...better than the other apostles...much better. But he was also knowledgeable in how the Olde Testament had changed with the Cross..Something the other apostles obviously did not understand.


And remember also...Cain slew Able...was that good?? What are you doing here...what are you thinking. I cannot believe you posted that about Cain. Good Grief!!!??

I guess we can chuck the 10 Commandments then, as well as all the prophecies!

I did not say that at all. I said we are to know the Olde Testament or as it states in the New Testament ..the Olde Testament is our schoolmaster...for us to know.

Jesus never claimed to be GOD or the WORD! That was something that was written later, by whoever authored the Book of John, and is a direct rip-off from the "LOGOS" proposed by the Jewish/Hellinist philosopher Philo of Alexandia, which was the pop-culture trend of the time. SOURCE

I don't put much stock in Philo nor Origin et al. Nor do I put much stock in Hellenism..or Hellenist Philosophers.

There is another line by which the Word has been preserved for us today. A line mostly ignored by the media and public education...in trying to alter peoples understanding of the Word.

You can find this in "New Age Bible Versions" for all the books of the Word..and where and how they were changed as they are laid out side by side and you can see the changes In the different versions. Scolars today do not like this book which is a very important flag of what is going on out here.

Believing that there is no good in the people of the world, or in the world itself is NOT supported by the Old Testament or Jewish tradition. Christianity supports Original Sin and teaches that there is no good in people or in world because of Paul, the infiltrator and the liar, not because of what Jesus taught.

I don't put a lot of stock in Jewish Tradition simply because I know their history. I also know that much of Christian tradition has been altered by the adoption of practices which were not in there at the forming of the Church. Just as was done to the Jews to make them err and follow the traditions of men. ..so too with the Christians. And from the same source and unto this day.

I'll leave you with this...


WORKS!

You quote something Olde Testament...I will also remind you that the Olde Testament...and also Hellenism and such philosophies are of works.

for the Believer it is of Faith..Not of works lest any man boast. By Faith are we saved..Through Grace..not of works lest any man boast. And certainly not of the traditions of men.

The Olde Testaament is of Ishmael and is in Bondage with her children...

Believers are of Issac and His Seed...not seeds..but seed Singular.


Not an Ishmaelite,
Orangetom

a reply to: orangetom1999

The Parable of the Good Samaritan
25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’[a]; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”

28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

30 In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two denarii[c] and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’

36 “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”

37 The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”

Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”


WORKS!

You quote something Olde Testament...I will also remind you that the Olde Testament...and also Hellenism and such philosophies are of works.

That's not from the Old Testament. Those are your savior's words.

This is what your God told Cain in Genesis
Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”

But were they good??? Sheesh..nothing. Were they good. Is that why they were kicked out of the garden...because they were good?? I need a degree in rocket science to figure this one out...it is just so difficult.

God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

What else were they other than "good"? Is your God good? Because, He says that Adam and Eve have become "like" him. What he doesn't say is that they have become "evil".

“The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

It doesn't really matter though, you Christians are convinced that you're wretched, evil and guilty, deserving of death, regardless of what the Bible and your savior actually says. You believe Paul. He's your God now!

Good luck to you.

But for me, I'll continue to see the good in people and experience God through the divinity that emanates from within each and every living thing, as well as every not so living thing.

"We must not let him eat from the tree of life and live forever".... why send Jesus then if we weren't meant to live forever? Isn't believing in Jesus more or less eating from the tree of life? Why ban it in the garden but not now?

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

I believe you're talking fable vs reality...

The people of the OT didn't know God... they were lost without their shepherd

a reply to: windword


Wow!!!!

That's not from the Old Testament. Those are your savior's words.

What brought in the New Testament is the event of the Cross. This means that as Jesus walked among men and lived with them ..it was Still Olde Testament. For what brings a testament into effect is the death of the testator. And it is obvious that no one died for the Olde Testament.

Matthew, Luke , Mark, and John...are Olde Testament until the Testator dies.

For He came to fulfill the Olde Testament...and to usher in the New Testament.
It was the Jews and particularly the Jewish leadership who were not keeping the Olde Testament...while claiming they were in fact keeping it.

This is why they had to kill Him and all the other prophets sent by God...to hide the fact that they were scamming the Law of Moses...while on the surface appearing to keep the Law of Moses when they were doing no such thing.

Very much as our leadership does today..right now...appearances not the real substance of the law. Nothing changed..no evolution going on here folks.

The walk of Jesus on this earth is in fact..Olde Testament. But it is kept in the New Testament books..causing some confusion. I've only heard one minister who teaches this distinction. Most I know do not.

Orangetom

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: orangetom1999

windword: What else were they other than "good"? Is your God good? Because, He says that Adam and Eve have become "like" him. What he doesn't say is that they have become "evil".
“The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”
It doesn't really matter though, you Christians are convinced that you're wretched, evil and guilty, deserving of death, regardless of what the Bible and your savior actually says. You believe Paul. He's your God now!
Good luck to you.

I'm not convinced; I do know Christianity is a 'death based faith' (so called in another recent provocative thread), my thought is based upon the fact that this physical world is not real. Where you actually come from is what Jesus described as "the kingdom" an eternal place wherein you exist as an individualized spirit forever. This material world called earth/civilization you begged to be part of is what is called an accelerated experience for your soul *to become MORE individualized* (lucky to get a place--on this carnival ride). Paul is no God, I can assure you; he managed to remove from what should have been included in "Christianity" all of the Gnostic/Egyptian/Hebrew Mystery school teachings. Paul could very well be the hidden anti-Christ. Where does this idea of man becoming more God-like becomes a bad thing? Man is Gods expression; PURE in its failures, its triumphs (ITS ALLOWED). Adam and Eve; that fable? Why put any emphasis upon Mans word written based upon an oral tradition that is SUSPECT anyway (in its confusion). This universe is based upon polarities, but there is a neutral point, you pick the positive, negative or neutral stance, to describe your own perspective/experience. I won't beat a dead horse; I observe is all.

a reply to: vethumanbeing

Paul is no God, I can assure you; he managed to remove from what should have been included in "Christianity" all of the Gnostic/Egyptian/Hebrew Mystery school teachings. Paul could very well be the hidden anti-Christ.

Indeed...correct....Paul is no God...correct!!

As to the Gnostic/Egyptian/Hebrew Mystery school teachings...if I want that I go about 35 miles south of me to Virginia Beach , Virginia and go to the Edgar Cayce Foundation building ..and look in their library. In the back of their library is the real library....though a lot is to be found in the main library if one knows at what one is looking.

Their book store has interesting books not normally found in public libraries. The Egyptian Book of the Dead...the Tibetan Book of the Dead...Manley Palmer Hall's book ..the Secret Teachings of All Ages.

The book which is of occasional interest to me is Morals and Dogma by Albert Pike. But this one ...one must be very careful in reading. So too with Manley Palmer Hall's ...The Rosicrucian's Their Rites and Mysteries.

Another book very difficult to read and make heads or tails of is the Kabbalah. I had a copy complete with various charts and gave it away to someone more interested in that kind of thing.

There is a problem with these books and the dogma they are pushing and one seldom taught to most people to think it through. I think this not accidental. But deliberate.

And that is that they are feudal in nature...class distinctions...verses a true republican form..but class..royalty..by rankings...and certain secrets to go with it. Secrets not known by those not of the class /authorized to know.

This is the basis or a feudal social structure..not a republican form of government...a representative form of government..but often a government or social structure in secret. Priviliges and rights in secret..not known by those it will affect.

That becomes obvious when one steps back and reads carefully the material in these books and then looks at the history of men.

Just my .02,


Orangetom

originally posted by: orangetom1999
a reply to: veteranhumanbeing

VHB: Paul is no God, I can assure you; he managed to remove from what should have been included in "Christianity" all of the Gnostic/Egyptian/Hebrew Mystery school teachings. Paul could very well be the hidden anti-Christ.

orangetom1999: Indeed...correct....Paul is no God...correct!!
As to the Gnostic/Egyptian/Hebrew Mystery school teachings...if I want that I go about 35 miles south of me to Virginia Beach , Virginia and go to the Edgar Cayce Foundation building ..and look in their library. In the back of their library is the real library....though a lot is to be found in the main library if one knows at what one is looking.
Their book store has interesting books not normally found in public libraries. The Egyptian Book of the Dead...the Tibetan Book of the Dead...Manley Palmer Hall's book ..the Secret Teachings of All Ages.

Outstanding. I have/had great friend that created the 'Monroe Institute of Applied Sciences' in Virginia. Have you heard of it?

orangetom1999: The book which is of occasional interest to me is Morals and Dogma by Albert Pike. But this one ...one must be very careful in reading. So too with Manley Palmer Hall's ...The Rosicrucian's Their Rites and Mysteries.

Like taking on the Kabbalah sepherioth: 'daa'th" (a level of enlightenment) without knowing what you are doing, could damage your soul.

orangetom1999: Another book very difficult to read and make heads or tails of is the Kabbalah. I had a copy complete with various charts and gave it away to someone more interested in that kind of thing.

Great information shared, Albert Pike and Manley Palmer Hall; will look at definitely. I am a self 'initiate' regarding the Kabbalah, very familiar with this form of self enlightenment (spirit trapped in matter goes through paths to transform itself enough to experience the immaterial face of God); doing this as a human being on earth (RIDICULOUS) but possible. I understand the care it takes in reading certain things (you dare to look into the abyss; you may never be normal afterwards).

orangetom1999: There is a problem with these books and the dogma they are pushing and one seldom taught to most people to think it through. I think this not accidental. But deliberate.
And that is that they are feudal in nature...class distinctions...verses a true republican form..but class..royalty..by rankings...and certain secrets to go with it. Secrets not known by those not of the class /authorized to know.

Not everyone is to know these things that are of the mystery schools; this is why they are classified/referred to as 'esoteric' knowledge. One has to seek them out; is pointed to them; such as the Nag Hammati Library of Gnostic texts. The Freemasons/Rosicrucianists/Templars are one and the same (include here The Essene Gnostics that understood the Egyptian mystery schools (specifically Thoths/Hermes invention: the Kabbalah): Jesus was a master of this.

orangetom1999: This the basis or a feudal social structure..not a republican form of government...a representative form of government..but often a government or social structure in secret. Priviliges and rights in secret..not known by those it will affect.
That becomes obvious when one steps back and reads carefully the material in these books and then looks at the history of men.
Just my .02,Orangetom

No, not a republican form of government at all (not Plato's Republic). Take this to modern day, it seems no one wants to work for the knowledge (that is deliberately hidden for good reason). I read, I connect the dots; see similarities/patterns make conclusions the same as you. Information may be free (you have to have discernment), then you have to make sense of what it is trying to tell you, you alone have to assimilate it (and if shared; someone might understand the message). You. Understand. This.

This is one of my favorite arguments with the Bible thumpers:

"Let us pray in the words that our Savior gave us. Our Father, who art in heaven..."

Who do the words "Our Father" refer to? Yeah, Old Testament God.

Did you read what He did in the Old Testament? Don't just read the cherry picked stuff; read all the absolute EVIL things that transpired on his watch. To wit: Commanding your servants to slice open women's bellies and dash their unborn on the rocks is EVIL. Murdering children is EVIL. Rape is EVIL. Forcing a human to bear your child without her consent is EVIL. Having Bears kill 42 children is EVIL. Killing first born children is EVIL. Drowning everyone and everything is EVIL. (And what's with all the burnt sacrifices and blood rituals? Smear that blood people! Smear it!)

I wouldn't follow a man who did these things and you expect me to offer blind devotion to this rapist, genocidal maniac?
To put it in role-playing game terms, would a Paladin rape women, tear out the unborn, or kill children? Are Paladins more moral than God?

But here's the best part. God and Jesus are one in the same. The Holy Trinity. A basic tenet of your faith. You cannot tell me that these two beings are different. They are simply sides of the same three sided coin.

a reply to: Foundryman

Please explain how Jesus is the same as the old testament God using quotes from Jesus

a reply to: vethumanbeing

Outstanding. I have/had great friend that created the 'Monroe Institute of Applied Sciences' in Virginia. Have you heard of it?

Interesting!! I have not heard of the Monroe Institute of Applied Sciences. It is of interest to me that so many of such Institutes and research centers are here in Virginia. I find that to be curious.

I have also been wondering who or what has been carrying on ..or continuing in some facet various aspects of Edgar Caycee's work. How it was developing and changing.

I did however...look it up on Google Earth to find it's location. It seems to be in the foothills of the Shenandoah. Quite lovely up there..year round. I am on the sea coast and prefer to get to the mountains..particularly in the summer and fall. Not much of a tourist type person. Where the tourists are ..I go the other way.

Like taking on the Kabbalah sepherioth: 'daa'th" (a level of enlightenment) without knowing what you are doing, could damage your soul

Indeed...quite correct. I notice that when I tried to read this book..and also Morals and Dogma...not so much with "The Rosicrucian's Their Rites and Mysteries" ...that when one tried to read a lot of these books in long sessions..it tends to disturb something deep down inside one. I have learned to only read these books for short bits of informations and then put them away. It sounds strange I know but it is what I learned. There is a spirit inside the pages.
This was an important tell tale lesson and one not taught to outsiders..but somehow I picked up on it. For the most part I do not mess with them except to look up certain references in them and then put them back on the shelf.

I understand the care it takes in reading certain things (you dare to look into the abyss; you may never be normal afterwards).

Wow!!! As I recall..though it has been awhile....this is the basic outline of Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche ..but one could apply it to many of todays famous people when examining their conduct and beliefs.

However..it is excellent that you are aware of this pattern...and you are quite correct here.

Not everyone is to know these things that are of the mystery schools; this is why they are classified/referred to as 'esoteric' knowledge. One has to seek them out; is pointed to them; such as the Nag Hammati Library of Gnostic texts. The Freemasons/Rosicrucianists/Templars are one and the same (include here The Essene Gnostics that understood the Egyptian mystery schools (specifically Thoths/Hermes invention: the Kabbalah): Jesus was a master of this.

Yes...I am aware of this as well. However I am also aware that some of this pattern of the mystery schools and the occult is taught in the Word if one knows what one is reading..if one knows the pattern of these things in Heaven and those things on this earth...and that of the fallen. The information's is out there.
The sad truth, as I keep stating, is that many ministers do not teach their flocks to know anything about pattern recognition..or the other religion in the Word and how it was to affect Ancient Israel and Believers unto this day. I believe many ministers want their flocks unarmed...uneducated..untutored. That this ignorance is deliberate.
For like the Pharisees and Hebrew leadership at the time of Jesus...they too wanted the people ignorant of how they had superimposed another religion and another god on top of the Law of Moses as if it was the Law of Moses...when it was no such thing.

What one learns when one sees the pattern is how to spot a counterfeit..and there are many of them out here...passing themselves off as religion.

I am aware of the pattern of when one looks to the East or the West...been aware of it for many years now.

No, not a republican form of government at all (not Plato's Republic). Take this to modern day, it seems no one wants to work for the knowledge (that is deliberately hidden for good reason). I read, I connect the dots; see similarities/patterns make conclusions the same as you. Information may be free (you have to have discernment), then you have to make sense of what it is trying to tell you, you alone have to assimilate it (and if shared; someone might understand the message). You. Understand. This.

No ..not Plato at all. For Plato's Republic is the basis for todays infiltration of modern education to promote socialist/communist ideology without ever mentioning socialism and communism. I lean more towards Aristotle and Socrates....not Plato.

And Socialism ...is one step away from Communism....and Communism is the ultimate feudalism..Royalty...

As GFW Hegel says..."The State is god." and I do not believe In that corruption by the fallen.

And communism is responsible here in times of Enlightenment..illumination..intellect...of the deaths of millions and millions by their own government. By Democide...death by ones own government.

This is not evolution..but devolution. De Evolving.

Socialism is only a slower process of such devolution...unless the Communists take over and then it will accelerate.

For it is of the fallen...by intellect.by intelligence..by illumination.

Hope this helps some of the readers out here.

Orangetom

originally posted by: Foundryman
This is one of my favorite arguments with the Bible thumpers:

"Let us pray in the words that our Savior gave us. Our Father, who art in heaven..."

Who do the words "Our Father" refer to? Yeah, Old Testament God.

Did you read what He did in the Old Testament? Don't just read the cherry picked stuff; read all the absolute EVIL things that transpired on his watch. To wit: Commanding your servants to slice open women's bellies and dash their unborn on the rocks is EVIL. Murdering children is EVIL. Rape is EVIL. Forcing a human to bear your child without her consent is EVIL. Having Bears kill 42 children is EVIL. Killing first born children is EVIL. Drowning everyone and everything is EVIL. (And what's with all the burnt sacrifices and blood rituals? Smear that blood people! Smear it!)

I wouldn't follow a man who did these things and you expect me to offer blind devotion to this rapist, genocidal maniac?
To put it in role-playing game terms, would a Paladin rape women, tear out the unborn, or kill children? Are Paladins more moral than God?

But here's the best part. God and Jesus are one in the same. The Holy Trinity. A basic tenet of your faith. You cannot tell me that these two beings are different. They are simply sides of the same three sided coin.

This is textbook of todays intellect attempting to pass for the moral high ground when it is not.

For what is missing here is what the nations who were in the land before the Children of Israel were doing. The abominations and sacrifices even of their own children. This aspect is totally ignored in order to push their one sided view of history.

When one looks at the histories of many of these nations ..their religions and their customs it becomes a horror. This is why the Children of Israel were told to clean this land..for it was defiled and in some cases totally defiled by the previous inhabitants down to their offspring and cattle, sheep, and goats..totally defiled. Nothing was to be spared.


usminc.org...

There is more to this but it is totally ignored by todays intellects in order to play the blame game so predictable and as a staple of todays educated peoples. The problem is that much of the real history is deleted from these types of posts in order to support this type of pseudo intellectual blame game.

Once you see the whole history of nations and peoples..their religfions...you begin to understand...the bigger picture.

You realize that the very history of mankind is a very violent history....from the beginning. And this long before the advent of Christianity. And it continues today ..in times of enlightenment and illumination...educated men running things.

Hope this helps some of the readers out here to see the bigger picture often hidden and concealed from our understanding/knowledge of history.

Orangetom