What Albert Einstein said about Atheists

a reply to: dismanrc

Ah yes just the other day there was another trying to rebrand atheism as a belief system. Falsely labeling atheism as a belief/religion is quite the conspiracy. There has been a push by religious groups to label and redefine atheism for quite a while and it is agenda driven. Some consciously know what they are attempting some do not but the entire premise is advocated from an offshoot of the Wedge strategy authored by the Discovery Institute, the hub of the intelligent design movement. The manifesto's goal is to change American culture by shaping public policy to reflect conservative Christian, namely evangelical Protestant, values. The leaked document became widely known in the Kitzmiller v. Dover court case where ID was being snuck into schools. Since then most groups have tried to downplay the Wedge Document but offshoots of the strategy have included rebranding atheism as a religion along with attempts to label evolution as its doctrine. The purpose is to label certain sciences as religious doctrine with hopes to have them removed from the curriculum.

originally posted by: Grimpachi
a reply to: dismanrc

Ah yes just the other day there was another trying to rebrand atheism as a belief system. Falsely labeling atheism as a belief/religion is quite the conspiracy. There has been a push by religious groups to label and redefine atheism for quite a while and it is agenda driven. Some consciously know what they are attempting some do not but the entire premise is advocated from an offshoot of the Wedge strategy authored by the Discovery Institute, the hub of the intelligent design movement. The manifesto's goal is to change American culture by shaping public policy to reflect conservative Christian, namely evangelical Protestant, values. The leaked document became widely known in the Kitzmiller v. Dover court case where ID was being snuck into schools. Since then most groups have tried to downplay the Wedge Document but offshoots of the strategy have included rebranding atheism as a religion along with attempts to label evolution as its doctrine. The purpose is to label certain sciences as religious doctrine with hopes to have them removed from the curriculum.

Lot of talk but have you disputed one of the things i said?

Nope, not one.

I have no problems with atheist, as i said they have the same right to their beliefs as everyone else.

The old saying is "if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, squawks like a duck and swims like a duck. Its probably a duck."


Atheism fits the definition of a religion. In many cases you can even list atheism as your preferred religion on government forms.

BUT if we do consider atheism as a religion then they are on equal footing just like everybody else and would be seen as pushing their "religion" just like all the ones they cry against.

A belief system is a belief system no matter what you call it.


So why is atheism NOT a belief system?

originally posted by: dismanrc
Ahh But Atheism is a religion.

Per Oxford Dictionary:

- The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods: ideas about the relationship between science and religion
- A particular system of faith and worship
- A pursuit or interest followed with great devotion.

The section of you post in bold is not part of the oxford dictionary definition (or any definition) for Religion. Science has nothing to do with religion.

Atheist have all of these:
- defiantly a large number of followers.
- A core belief that there is no God.
- A very hard drive to remove all other belief systems (IE religions) from public use.
- the sign of the atom or @ is commonly know as their "cross"

Weird, you didn't use the Oxford Dictionary definition for Atheist but in fact you created your very own, inserting all kinds of nonsense in the process....very dishonest and very misleading.

The correct Oxford Dictionary definition is:

Disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods

Nothing more, nothing less.

See here:

www.oxforddictionaries.com...

So you see your claim falls to bits when the correct definition is applied, and not the definition you want. Very devious.

So in all way that I see it they are just another religion trying to stomp out competitor.

And on that note they have the same right to practice their religion as any other.

Separation of church and state? never existed and never will. As long as man has a morality it will be shaped by beliefs.
The right to practice your own religion with out threat or exclusion from holding office in the US? The very idea of what is in the Constitution.

Morality such as the one you've displayed here in this thread?

Yeah I'm sure you're all for freedom of religion, just as long as everyone's a particular brand of your particular religion (the one with the dying jew on a stick?).

Or are you saying you'd vote for a Muslim or atheist to the office of president?

originally posted by: Prezbo369

originally posted by: dismanrc
Ahh But Atheism is a religion.

Per Oxford Dictionary:

- The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods: ideas about the relationship between science and religion
- A particular system of faith and worship
- A pursuit or interest followed with great devotion.

The section of you post in bold is not part of the oxford dictionary definition (or any definition) for Religion. Science has nothing to do with religion.

Atheist have all of these:
- defiantly a large number of followers.
- A core belief that there is no God.
- A very hard drive to remove all other belief systems (IE religions) from public use.
- the sign of the atom or @ is commonly know as their "cross"

Weird, you didn't use the Oxford Dictionary definition for Atheist but in fact you created your very own, inserting all kinds of nonsense in the process....very dishonest and very misleading.

The correct Oxford Dictionary definition is:

Disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods

Nothing more, nothing less.

See here:

www.oxforddictionaries.com...

So you see your claim falls to bits when the correct definition is applied, and not the definition you want. Very devious.

So in all way that I see it they are just another religion trying to stomp out competitor.

And on that note they have the same right to practice their religion as any other.

Separation of church and state? never existed and never will. As long as man has a morality it will be shaped by beliefs.
The right to practice your own religion with out threat or exclusion from holding office in the US? The very idea of what is in the Constitution.

Morality such as the one you've displayed here in this thread?

Yeah I'm sure you're all for freedom of religion, just as long as everyone's a particular brand of your particular religion (the one with the dying jew on a stick?).

Or are you saying you'd vote for a Muslim or atheist to the office of president?

Ok lets look at what your say:

"Disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods"



As far as my belief I never said what I believe in. In fact I was raised baptist, my wife is Muslim, one of my best friends is a Buddhist monk. I'm a historian by education and have read the Bible, the Koran, the Bhagavad Gita and parts of a few other religious texts. I have no clue which one is correct. I do believe in God, but which path is right. You got me there.

Buddhism is consider a religion, but has no God. It is still a belief system and follows the same 4 patterns that i put out before.

Atheism is still a belief system: you believe there is no God which in itself states that you believe in something.

ANd yes I would vote for someone no matter what religion they are. And I would be proud to listen to what they say about their religion as long as I get the make the finial choose on the issue.

originally posted by: dismanrc
Ok lets look at what your say:

"Disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods"

See where is says 'lack of belief' and 'disbelief'?.......and yet you still make the claim that:

Atheism is still a belief system: you believe there is no God which in itself states that you believe in something.

The rejection of a claim (in this case for the existence of a god), is not in itself a claim. Rejecting the claim that a god exists is not the claim that gods do not exist.

Atheists do not claim that there is no god, they just do not accept your claim that there is. So you can see how your original claim that it's a religion is false.

And yes I would vote for someone no matter what religion they are. And I would be proud to listen to what they say about their religion as long as I get the make the finial choose on the issue.

So why do you have a problem with the separation of church and state?

a reply to: dismanrc

So why is atheism NOT a belief system?

it is not a belief system, it is a theory. like general relativity.

a reply to: dismanrc

Atheism is more like vegetarianism insofar as it is semi-fashionable, easy to argue for, and it's proponents will not stop talking about it.

Atheism is a belief system like any religion, whether you accept it or deny it.

First Church of Atheism
Atheist Church of Canada
Britains Atheist Church Now Pulls in Crowds from Berlin to Ohio

It's just so ironic...

Carl Sagan, a celebrated Agnostic who is often construed as an Atheist, intelligently breaks down belief systems in this clip from The Cosmos;


He states that whether you believe the Universe was created by God or by the Big Bang, one is just as valid as the other, because they are both theories and beliefs that can never be proven with Mankind's current understanding of the Universe. Just do not confine yourself to one space, one pattern of thought because of your beliefs.

On atheism, Sagan commented in 1981:

An atheist is someone who is certain that God does not exist, someone who has compelling evidence against the existence of God. I know of no such compelling evidence. Because God can be relegated to remote times and places and to ultimate causes, we would have to know a great deal more about the universe than we do now to be sure that no such God exists. To be certain of the existence of God and to be certain of the nonexistence of God seem to me to be the confident extremes in a subject so riddled with doubt and uncertainty as to inspire very little confidence indeed.

a reply to: Konduit

Atheism is a belief system like any religion, whether you accept it or deny it.

First Church of Atheism
Atheist Church of Canada
Britains Atheist Church Now Pulls in Crowds from Berlin to Ohio

LOL

You've been played, player!

Church noun
: a building that is used for Christian religious services

: religious services held in a church

: a particular Christian group
www.merriam-webster.com...

CHURCH

a building for public Christian worship.
2.
public worship of God or a religious service in such a building:
to attend church regularly.
3.
(sometimes initial capital letter) the whole body of Christian believers; Christendom.
4.
(sometimes initial capital letter) any division of this body professing the same creed and acknowledging the same ecclesiastical authority; a Christian denomination:
the Methodist Church.
5.
that part of the whole Christian body, or of a particular denomination, belonging to the same city, country, nation, etc.
6.
a body of Christians worshipping in a particular building or constituting one congregation:
She is a member of this church.
dictionary.reference.com...

Atheists CAN'T logically have a church, by the definition of the word.

Humanism, on the otherhand, could be considered an atheist belief system.

a reply to: windword

Then you understand how "logical" both Religion and Atheism can be. It's almost like they are siblings...

originally posted by: Konduit
Atheism is a belief system like any religion, whether you accept it or deny it.

Atheism is the lack of belief, or disbelief in gods. Nothing more and nothing less, no matter how badly you want it to.

I understand that now even to religious people, religion' and 'belief' are now dirty words to be used as terms of abuse, but they don't stick in this instance. Very ironic.

First Church of Atheism
Atheist Church of Canada
Britains Atheist Church Now Pulls in Crowds from Berlin to Ohio

All the people from those groups have added something extra onto their lack of belief in gods, which is their right to do. The fact that these small groups exist doesn't change the definition of the word.

Carl Sagan, a celebrated Agnostic who is often construed as an Atheist, intelligently breaks down belief systems in this clip from The Cosmos;

He states that whether you believe the Universe was created by God or by the Big Bang, one is just as valid as the other, because they are both theories and beliefs that can never be proven with Mankind's current understanding of the Universe. Just don't confine yourself to one space, one pattern of thought BECAUSE of your beliefs.

Did you even watch the video? he says no such thing, very dishonest. There is evidence for the big bang, there is none for the existence of gods.

they are both theories and beliefs

I see you understand science very well....

On atheism, Sagan commented in 1981:

An atheist is someone who is certain that God does not exist, someone who has compelling evidence against the existence of God. I know of no such compelling evidence. Because God can be relegated to remote times and places and to ultimate causes, we would have to know a great deal more about the universe than we do now to be sure that no such God exists. To be certain of the existence of God and to be certain of the nonexistence of God seem to me to be the confident extremes in a subject so riddled with doubt and uncertainty as to inspire very little confidence indeed

Yeah that awkward moment when Sagan was wrong, being human and all that. Darwin was wrong about many things too, and while it might be hard to grasp the notion of not taking everything that someone you greatly respect has said to be the ultimate truth, sometimes even the greatest minds can brain fart and get things wrong. And in this instance Sagan was wrong.

a reply to: Konduit

Well, in my opinion, if they ARE brothers, Satanism and Christianity are twin brothers, while Atheism is their older brother by a different mother!

originally posted by: Prezbo369
Did you even watch the video? he says no such thing, very dishonest. There is evidence for the big bang, there is none for the existence of gods.

Carl Sagan clearly states that "if you believe the origin of God is an unanswerable question, then save a step and conclude that the origin of the universe is an unanswerable question". The Big Bang Theory is a THEORY, which is why it is called such. There is no undeniable evidence of its existence, such as the belief in God. Do not let your beliefs blindly control your insights.

Proponents of Atheism often like to cite the great minds of science to prove their beliefs, which evidently in this thread, is not the case.

originally posted by: Konduit
a reply to: Prezbo369

Did you even watch the video? He clearly states that "whether if you believe the origin of God is an unanswerable question, then save a step and conclude that the origin of the universe is an unanswerable question".

That only applies to people that believe gods exist, and it certainly doesn't apply to science. Why would someone that holds no belief in gods believe the origin of gods is unanswerable?....

The Big Bang Theory is a THEORY. Which is why it is called such. There is no undeniable evidence of its existence. Such as the Belief in God.

Yep you definitely know what you're talking about, and are not just spouting your ignorant opinion.....

Scientific Theory

Proponents of Atheism often like to sight the great minds of science to prove their beliefs, which evidently in this thread, is not the case.

Atheists hold no beliefs.....no matter how much you want them to.

Belief

originally posted by: Prezbo369
Yep you definitely know what you're talking about, and are not just spouting your ignorant opinion.....

originally posted by: Prezbo369
Yeah that awkward moment when Sagan was wrong, being human and all that. Darwin was wrong about many things too, and while it might be hard to grasp the notion of not taking everything that someone you greatly respect has said to be the ultimate truth, sometimes even the greatest minds can brain fart and get things wrong. And in this instance Sagan was wrong.

Oh... the irony

It's clear which direction your belief system has taken you, oh great and knowledgeable one.

a reply to: Konduit

Carl Sagan clearly states that "if you believe the origin of God is an unanswerable question, then save a step and conclude that the origin of the universe is an unanswerable question".

One would have to believe in God, in the first place, for the statement to have any meaning.

We KNOW that there was a Big Bang, because he have evidence of the its radiation. The Big Bang being the "origin" of the Universe is what is a "theory.

a reply to: Konduit

is a theory a belief system?

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: Konduit

is a theory a belief system?

Except you can scientifically show the cause of effect of relativity to some degree.

You can not do that with God either way for or against. I have never seen anyone prove that he exists and I have never seen anyone prove he doesn't. I have seen may put their BELIEFS one way or another out about this. Many times using the same data on both sides .

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: Konduit

Carl Sagan clearly states that "if you believe the origin of God is an unanswerable question, then save a step and conclude that the origin of the universe is an unanswerable question".

One would have to believe in God, in the first place, for the statement to have any meaning.

We KNOW that there was a Big Bang, because he have evidence of the its radiation. The Big Bang being the "origin" of the Universe is what is a "theory.

Erm, no we dont.
It is a theory supported by red shift(which could just as simply be an interpretation error), but it isnt a proven fact.

To anyone that claims that the big bang is a proven fact I can only call BS.

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: Konduit

is a theory a belief system?

A theory is an idea to explain a set of circumstantial evidence which points towards said theory.
Until undeniable evidence turns up to support a theory, its a belief. Not a belief system.