The Final Answer to the Racial Question

The final "answer" is obvious: RACISM IS JUST ANOTHER -ISM.

"Racism" does not necessarily mean that you HATE another person for their race.

as we have seen recently in the news, the act of passively categorizing people according to race and/or any other -isms they subscribe to, is just as dangerous, if not moreso.

For example (listen up people who think radio services like NPR are so progressive and liberal) If you subscribe to calling people "black" or "white" or even "African-American" (instead of just American..) then you are indeed a Racist in MY book.

If you are propagating the idea that race is a real thing, and not just an abstract (and ultimately meaningless) factor of the individual human being as a whole, then you are a part of "the problem".

I am so ENTIRELY supportive of people being happy in their own skin and being interested in the people of their community BUT.. I would argue that this has NOTHING to do with "celebrating being a ______" as I have to so often hear about on the radio.

who here would agree that people are NOT ever truly either:

Black OR White.

Caucasian OR ethnic.

Latino or Afro-Latino (in reference to a recent NPR story I heard)

etc.

NOBODY is just one thing, or another.

I am Russian, Ukrainian, Polish, Irish, French, English, German, and a bit of Native American..

what scholarship do I apply for.? what flag do I wave? Am I going to get a radio show where me and "my kind" can celebrate the pride we have for being mixed white boys from Alaska..??

the very idea that we think we can confidently say that anyone is "100% (insert racial identity here)" is ridiculous. Any racial identity (or really any other identity) is a modern invention and I challenge anyone to prove otherwise. All cultural traditions HAVE evolved with the times, no matter how slow that evolution might be. Nothing is unchanged by all other cultures and changes in the world.

Especially in the United States, people think that something 50 years old is a LANDMARK.
and I'm not even exaggerating.

My town has a GAS STATION which is 100 years old, and a protected landmark (could we fit the stereotype of rural 'merika any better?) . And its seems that there is an irony to be seen when there's logging trucks filling up at this gas station, loaded with trees which could also be considered "protected landmarks" by that same criteria, but aren't. They are (were) living things.

People act like our cultures have been fixed in time forever, but some of the most interesting ones are never spoken of. We here in America are expected to be feverishly proud of our country, and yet we never talk about the history of this country BEFORE the Europeans showed up. There is no "blame" that can be given to living people today, for the atrocities and achievements of the past, but we can at least openly acknowledge the KNOWN events of the past without judgment, and attempt to learn from them.

-ST1

If you want to stop racism, just stop talking about it. If we stop acknowledgeding race, there will be no racism. Pretty simple.

a reply to: Sparkymedic

that's pretty much exactly what I'm saying, but "not talking about it" in general is not going to stop this. If you read what i wrote, i do not call for condemning people, but rather redefining the very idea of "race" itself. It is entirely unimportant. No two members of the same "racial background" think and move in the exact same way.

the real problem is: Race-ism is engrained in our language and media.. do you really think two people on the internet NOT talking about something, is going to change this?

originally posted by: HyphenSt1
The final "answer" is obvious: RACISM IS JUST ANOTHER -ISM.

"Racism" does not necessarily mean that you HATE another person for their race.

as we have seen recently in the news, the act of passively categorizing people according to race and/or any other -isms they subscribe to, is just as dangerous, if not moreso.

For example (listen up people who think radio services like NPR are so progressive and liberal) If you subscribe to calling people "black" or "white" or even "African-American" (instead of just American..) then you are indeed a Racist in MY book.

If you are propagating the idea that race is a real thing, and not just an abstract (and ultimately meaningless) factor of the individual human being as a whole, then you are a part of "the problem".

I am so ENTIRELY supportive of people being happy in their own skin and being interested in the people of their community BUT.. I would argue that this has NOTHING to do with "celebrating being a ______" as I have to so often hear about on the radio.

who here would agree that people are NOT ever truly either:

Black OR White.

Caucasian OR ethnic.

Latino or Afro-Latino (in reference to a recent NPR story I heard)

etc.

NOBODY is just one thing, or another.

I am Russian, Ukrainian, Polish, Irish, French, English, German, and a bit of Native American..

what scholarship do I apply for.? what flag do I wave? Am I going to get a radio show where me and "my kind" can celebrate the pride we have for being mixed white boys from Alaska..??

the very idea that we think we can confidently say that anyone is "100% (insert racial identity here)" is ridiculous. Any racial identity (or really any other identity) is a modern invention and I challenge anyone to prove otherwise. All cultural traditions HAVE evolved with the times, no matter how slow that evolution might be. Nothing is unchanged by all other cultures and changes in the world.

Especially in the United States, people think that something 50 years old is a LANDMARK.
and I'm not even exaggerating.

My town has a GAS STATION which is 100 years old, and a protected landmark (could we fit the stereotype of rural 'merika any better?) . And its seems that there is an irony to be seen when there's logging trucks filling up at this gas station, loaded with trees which could also be considered "protected landmarks" by that same criteria, but aren't. They are (were) living things.

People act like our cultures have been fixed in time forever, but some of the most interesting ones are never spoken of. We here in America are expected to be feverishly proud of our country, and yet we never talk about the history of this country BEFORE the Europeans showed up. There is no "blame" that can be given to living people today, for the atrocities and achievements of the past, but we can at least openly acknowledge the KNOWN events of the past without judgment, and attempt to learn from them.

-ST1

I agree with you 100% that all of these constructs are illusions.

Part of the solution to racism or bigotry is for people to stop over-identifying with these categories, whether that be nationalism, race, religion, you name it.

And I agree that the "social justice" community often becomes entrenched into still categorizing people, while claiming to fight racism.

Having said that, there are also solid arguments and psychological studies that support the idea that while race is a social construct and not "real," large proportions of the population see it as real, consciously or unconsciously, and act accordingly. Not only that, there are vestiges of laws in place that were based on it being real, and these need to be dismantled too. Implicit racism studies show that many people, without even being aware of it, do react to different races differently, showing that their mind is operating from a "race differences are real" mode.

So, we have to address all of these implicit things to truly move forward. Basically, the things that are vestiges of centuries of people NOT realizing it's all an illusion.

We can't just stop talking about something that is happening all over the place.

It's a nice idea but it is not very practical.

Not talking about and acting like that is going to make it just go away will just allow those that are perpetrating it to continue to do so.

It shouldn't exist, but it does and needs to be talked about in a civil manner.


When has just not talking about something actually worked and made it go away?

originally posted by: HyphenSt1
The Final Answer to the Racial Question

What is the racial question?

You're right. Race IS an abstract, meaningless factor of an individual. Tell that to the cops that shoot a black man on sight and tell all the people who support them and call the dead man a "thug".

There IS a real problem. It's not a person's race, it's how they're treated because of their physical traits.

there are 2 kinds of people i personally have a problem with:

1. people who think their race is superior to other races.
people who promote this view are very often poorly educated and jobless, so that’s some funny irony right there.

2. people who say there is no such thing as race and all humans are basically the same. maybe their world looks different through their rainbow-coloured politically correct glasses, but come on… an asian and an african… no difference? differences even go down to chemical levels of encymes and dna.

oh and for the record: i absolutely love those differences! imagine a world where really all humans look, act, talk and feel the same. how boring!

Despite our varied physical and cultural difference, we all love and hope and struggle and worry and dream for a better tomorrow. I pray one day that every Human Being will cast aside their personal prejudices and see the hearts beneath the skins.

United We Stand.

The answer for the black community is " If you don't want to be stereotyped don't act stereotypical" Rather simple isn't it.

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14 I agree that the "social justice" community often becomes entrenched into still categorizing people, while claiming to fight racism.

Having said that, there are also solid arguments and psychological studies that support the idea that while race is a social construct and not "real," large proportions of the population see it as real, consciously or unconsciously, and act accordingly. Not only that, there are vestiges of laws in place that were based on it being real, and these need to be dismantled too. Implicit racism studies show that many people, without even being aware of it, do react to different races differently, showing that their mind is operating from a "race differences are real" mode.

So, we have to address all of these implicit things to truly move forward. Basically, the things that are vestiges of centuries of people NOT realizing it's all an illusion.

Exactly, the cure is in recognizing the true nature of the disease.
projecting categorical assumptions upon entire groups of people (ESPECIALLY when it's entirely based on skin color- "black and white" talk being the most obvious example)

i can't even debate the "realness" of what they consider "race" because they are convinced by the fact that some (if not many) people do live up to stereotypes (and really, anything we can SAY about any race, is a stereotype), but it's because they are identifying DIRECTLY with those stereotypes and "channeling" that archetype that the culture expects, and not "channeling their Mexican-ness" or any other equally silly statement.


what happens when people think about the fulcrum of the wheel of circular arguments, instead of just contributing to the spinning..?

a reply to: Sremmos80

i entirely agree with you.. I'm NOT saying "stop talking about racism".. what i AM saying is "stop talking about stopping racism, while using the language and mindset of Racists" as i defined in the OP: the passive categorization and scorekeeping mentality in which people see each other.

IT'S IN THE LANGUAGE first and foremost. "black" and "white" say nothing about anybody. It's all over the radio. That needs to be changed before progress can be made.

a reply to: Sparkymedic

But certain groups would lose their "victim" status-and wouldn't have it to use to make excuses for their behavior.

a reply to: HyphenSt1

True equality begins in the courts.

Believe me-the ones that use race as an excuse for their actions would NEVER want that.

a reply to: mikell

yes it is. and my answer for the people (of all colors) who work at Microsoft in Redmond, Washington that they are not obliged to ride their bicycles in flocks down busy streets with blind corners and making rush hour worse than they already do..

but what effect does that have?

how about telling EVERYONE to stop acting stereotypical and how they are EXPECTED to act, and then maybe we can move forward.

a reply to: anticitizen

1. people who think their race is superior to other races.
people who promote this view are very often poorly educated and jobless, so that’s some funny irony right there.

so, the first irony i see is that you're implying that people who are poorly educated and jobless are less than you.. good start. I would have to say that the "highly educated" are educated with a lot of poor-techniques and most of the "jobs" out there, which are available to people who (for one reason or another) haven't had any proper education, are demeaning, soul-crushing and unhealthy for most people..
so what have you really meant to communicate there?

2. people who say there is no such thing as race and all humans are basically the same. maybe their world looks different through their rainbow-coloured politically correct glasses, but come on… an asian and an african… no difference? differences even go down to chemical levels of encymes and dna.

oh and for the record: i absolutely love those differences! imagine a world where really all humans look, act, talk and feel the same. how boring!

I am not at all meaning to say that "everyone is the same" by all means.. i am merely suggesting to increase our scale of magnification and ACTUALLY practice what we preach about "every individual is indeed different in their own ways"... take that into account.. learn to see folks that way for real... BUT THEN!

turn it around and practice seeing ourselves and others in context of the whole...

the balance between the two is the only thing that will end this circular argument.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

agreed haha. I don't have anything to add really, besides maybe that i meant to state more strongly that i am NOT suggesting that "racism isn't real", just as i don't think anyone is trying to convince anyone else "religion isn't real"...

but what i am saying, is that the mentality you described (race is a meaningless factor) is what needs to be talked about more. But this would destroy it as a variable to be used in political maneuvering and manipulation.

people need to really start taking the language they think in more seriously, and stop worrying so much about improving others, as so often seems to be the goal on the radio. "fixing the human race" is a ridiculous notion. "fixing how the human race sees itself and the world" is a goal worth aspiring to.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

oh and in response to your first question: "the racial question" is i suppose.. "does race matter"?

It came out of inverting and parodying the horrific notion of the Nazis' "Final Answer to the Jewish Question"

originally posted by: HyphenSt1
people need to really start taking the language they think in more seriously, and stop worrying so much about improving others, as so often seems to be the goal on the radio. "fixing the human race" is a ridiculous notion. "fixing how the human race sees itself and the world" is a goal worth aspiring to.

Agreed. Improving others is something far too many people are occupied with doing these days.

Ah! I get the title now. Thanks.

Good thoughts.

I am not at all meaning to say that "everyone is the same" by all means.. i am merely suggesting to increase our scale of magnification and ACTUALLY practice what we preach about "every individual is indeed different in their own ways"... take that into account.. learn to see folks that way for real...

One thing about being "the same" and "equal"... No two people are the same. Men and women aren't the same, but they are human beings of equal value and worth. Just like people all over the world, of all races.

I think I understand what you are trying to make clear. IMO classifying people to a certain race is not bad per se. However when people think less of a certain race, or do not allow one to operate outside the culture of ones race than it becomes discrimination or what is also known as racism. The society nowadays praises its multicultural society, however most of us are not ready for it yet. And even though I could be classified as a minority or something like that myself, I would urge everyone to go back to their home country. For western corporations are destroying your homeland, and lets be honest you are taking over the country you are living in as well. If things were more balanced in the world and there weren't some people (Illuminati) trying to do all this crazy stuffy and creating friction between people, I am positive that interaction between different races would be much better.

originally posted by: HyphenSt1

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14 I agree that the "social justice" community often becomes entrenched into still categorizing people, while claiming to fight racism.

Having said that, there are also solid arguments and psychological studies that support the idea that while race is a social construct and not "real," large proportions of the population see it as real, consciously or unconsciously, and act accordingly. Not only that, there are vestiges of laws in place that were based on it being real, and these need to be dismantled too. Implicit racism studies show that many people, without even being aware of it, do react to different races differently, showing that their mind is operating from a "race differences are real" mode.

So, we have to address all of these implicit things to truly move forward. Basically, the things that are vestiges of centuries of people NOT realizing it's all an illusion.

Exactly, the cure is in recognizing the true nature of the disease.
projecting categorical assumptions upon entire groups of people (ESPECIALLY when it's entirely based on skin color- "black and white" talk being the most obvious example)

i can't even debate the "realness" of what they consider "race" because they are convinced by the fact that some (if not many) people do live up to stereotypes (and really, anything we can SAY about any race, is a stereotype), but it's because they are identifying DIRECTLY with those stereotypes and "channeling" that archetype that the culture expects, and not "channeling their Mexican-ness" or any other equally silly statement.


what happens when people think about the fulcrum of the wheel of circular arguments, instead of just contributing to the spinning..?

I agree with you that in order to solve racism or any form of bigotry long-term, we need to find and address the real roots of it, not just symptoms nor current phenomena.

Part of the nature of it is categorical assumptions about whole groups, which we call stereotypes (which can be positive or negative). That can be about a race, gender, ethnic group, religion, nationality, nerd, jocks, hippies. You name it. It is critical that we all recognize that the logical fallacy of "over-extrapolation" or attribution of characteristics to a whole group based on limited data is not only fallacious and inaccurate but also can be very harmful in the wrong situation, such as judging someone or treating them differently based on said stereotypes. So, we must recognize the human penchant for this and deconstruct all of these stereotypes.

Racism and bigotry are also housed in the human psychological tendency towards in-group out-group bias, which applies to virtually all groups. This is well studied in psychology. And fear of the unknown.

To combat this I think requires three main things: 1) Education helps a great deal in helping people to understand how stereotypes and racism are wrong and don't accurately portray a group, and the variety of good and bad qualities and contributions and actions that have been offered by various cultures and peoples, including our own.

2) Exposure: there is little substitute for direct, meaningful, varied, and frequent exposure to people of other beliefs, races, groups, nationalities, sexual proclivities, etc. As just this experience makes most people realize that often such people violate the very stereotypes about them that are known.

3) Expansion of egoic identity: Given the psychological truth that most people will have a bias towards an "out-group" member, it can be said from a spiritual or mindfulness perspective that it is critical that we ourselves push and expand our egoic identity, moving it from let's say "I am a Indian Hindu from the Brahmen class" to "I am a citizen of the world and part of a global brotherhood."

Many evils are birthed from over-identification with a limited identity, including nationalism, race, religion, etc.

And yes, although I am a liberal, I have found that many in the "social justice" movement still do what is called essentializing races and genders, meaning they act as if there is a monolithic black culture, and a monolithic white culture, etc.