Debunking the notion that those who believe official government denials are "skeptics"

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04

originally posted by: game over man
Because alien skeptics at this point should accept that we have encountered Unidentified Craft before. UFO's are a fact.

Given the foundation for Alien visitation skepticism, then skeptics merely ACCEPT government official statements as "nothing to see here".

Yes, UFO's exist. Every new US bomber is a UFO. UFO's existing has nothing to do with alien life.

There s no accepting of anyone's official statement, there has never been anything to see, and no one has ever provided any evidence. We will stop saying nothing to see here when you actually show us something worth seeing.

Where are you getting confused that I said UFO = Alien Life ?

You are just acting as an example of all the points I mentioned earlier. Why even bother replying to me? You basically rewrote my other post.

originally posted by: game over man

originally posted by: draknoir2

originally posted by: game over man

originally posted by: draknoir2

originally posted by: game over man
a reply to: ZetaRediculian

This is because there are people who don't want to participate into the subject seriously? I might as well have an Alien right next to me? These are the same people who still won't believe in Aliens even if they landed on the White House Lawn?

Get back to us when that happens.

It would be interesting if Aliens did land on the White House Lawn what the skeptics would turn into? Conspiracy theorist would be coming up with all kinds of ideas and skeptics would still be reciting what the government says?

I dunno, man. It's your fantasy, not mine.

Your replies to me are so weird and unfriendly...it's not your fantasy but mine? What are you talking about?

You were asking me questions about a hypothetical situation you made up that has never happened [fantasy]. My answer was that I don't know.

a reply to: game over man

Maybe because that is what the OP is about? Actual alien visitation. No one claims UFO's don't exist. They claim there is no evidence of alien life visiting Earth.
Why are you talking about man made UFO's in a thread about alien life?

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04

originally posted by: game over man

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04

originally posted by: game over man

originally posted by: draknoir2

originally posted by: game over man
a reply to: ZetaRediculian

This is because there are people who don't want to participate into the subject seriously? I might as well have an Alien right next to me? These are the same people who still won't believe in Aliens even if they landed on the White House Lawn?

Get back to us when that happens.

It would be interesting if Aliens did land on the White House Lawn what the skeptics would turn into? Conspiracy theorist would be coming up with all kinds of ideas and skeptics would still be reciting what the government says?

Conspiracy theorists would have lots of crazy ideas that would all turn out wrong and Skeptics would wait for actual information to come out and make informed guesses.

Why include, their ideas would be all wrong? Why include the negative insult? You should just say they would have crazy ideas, and leave it at that.

Because I have been on ATS for more than a day and have seen the wacked out stuff people believe, such as Nibiru being hidden behind the sun, and it's not 1 or 2 people it's the majority of the "believers".

That's what you would get, Nibiru, Planet X, and all kinds of crazy ideas based on absolutely nothing, and believed by thousands even after the idea is proven wrong.

ETA: Want to make sure it's understood I am not saying everyone who believes in Aliens falls into that category. The Conspiracy theorists who make wild claims with no evidence do.

Then you need to think things through a little better before you start slinging mud at posters. If you think believers in Alien Life don't ALL fall under the Nibiru crowd, then why post with such attitude in a non Nibiru thread?

What is your belief with Alien Life? We will never find any? Our timelines won't match up? Or the distance is too vast?

Or do you believe timelines could match up, and the problem of distance can be solved? Therefor you just believe we haven't been visited because it would not be covered up, and Aliens would want to say hello?

What is your personal opinion?

originally posted by: draknoir2

originally posted by: game over man

originally posted by: draknoir2

originally posted by: game over man

originally posted by: draknoir2

originally posted by: game over man
a reply to: ZetaRediculian

This is because there are people who don't want to participate into the subject seriously? I might as well have an Alien right next to me? These are the same people who still won't believe in Aliens even if they landed on the White House Lawn?

Get back to us when that happens.

It would be interesting if Aliens did land on the White House Lawn what the skeptics would turn into? Conspiracy theorist would be coming up with all kinds of ideas and skeptics would still be reciting what the government says?

I dunno, man. It's your fantasy, not mine.

Your replies to me are so weird and unfriendly...it's not your fantasy but mine? What are you talking about?

You were asking me questions about a hypothetical situation you made up that has never happened [fantasy]. My answer was that I don't know.

You replied to me, "Get back to us when that happens..."

Then you reply I don't know...

Don't act like you didn't start the conversation.

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: game over man

Maybe because that is what the OP is about? Actual alien visitation. No one claims UFO's don't exist. They claim there is no evidence of alien life visiting Earth.
Why are you talking about man made UFO's in a thread about alien life?

The actual phrase man-made UFO's has been posted once in this thread and that is by you. I wrote in my other post that skeptics claim there is no evidence of Alien life visiting Earth, and they use very intelligent points to explain the lack of evidence. I talked about the points.

So again why are you just copying the ideas from my earlier post?

originally posted by: game over man

Then you need to think things through a little better before you start slinging mud at posters. I you think believers in Alien Life don't ALL fall under the Nibiru crowd, then post with such attitude in a non Nibiru thread?

Which poster did I sling mud at? Please name them. Nibiru was an example. In this thread we have an OP claiming a true skeptic is someone that believes aliens have visited Earth. Let that sink in.

What is your belief with Alien Life? We will never find any? Our timelines won't match up? Or the distance is to vast?

I don't think we will find any in my lifetime. That is moot though, as all that matters is evidence. There is no evidence alien life DOES exist, or has visited Earth. It's a possibility it does, it's possible it has, no evidence though.

Or do you believe timelines could match up, and the problem of distance can be solved? Therefor you just believe we haven't been visited because it would not be covered up, and Aliens would want to say hello?

Timelines and distances can be solved, but those are not the only problems. Whether it would or would not be covered up, whether they would or would not want to say hello is irrelevant, what is there evidence for?

What is your personal opinion?

My opinion is there is no evidence for the fantastical claims people make, and I am interested in any and all evidence, and would love to see any.

originally posted by: game over man
a reply to: ZetaRediculian

This is because there are people who don't want to participate into the subject seriously? I might as well have an Alien right next to me? These are the same people who still won't believe in Aliens even if they landed on the White House Lawn?

I am just saying that its not that complex. If aliens are here then they are here so go bag one. But it seems to me that the believers would rather just pray to this virtual mountain of evidence because that's where the aliens are somehow. I have no idea about what the government says about aliens and it doesn't matter If there is a mountain of evidence. Go find ET and stop waiting for someone else to do the work. The believers are all to busy blaming everyone else why nobody wants to share their beliefs with them. Its like a big collective whine. WAAAAA nobody believes the same as me WAAAAA. Government denyers WAAAAAA. Its just annoying anymore. Go get your own website and just go believe in aliens and you can all whine to each other about your mountain that's being ignored by the mean skeptics. Seriously, maybe you should all just collectively grow a pair.

originally posted by: game over man

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: game over man

Maybe because that is what the OP is about? Actual alien visitation. No one claims UFO's don't exist. They claim there is no evidence of alien life visiting Earth.
Why are you talking about man made UFO's in a thread about alien life?

The actual phrase man-made UFO's has been posted once in this thread and that is by you. I wrote in my other post that skeptics claim there is no evidence of Alien life visiting Earth, and they use very intelligent points to explain the lack of evidence. I talked about the points.

So again why are you just copying the ideas from my earlier post?

Maybe you need to read again.

You said.

Given the foundation for Alien visitation skepticism, then skeptics merely ACCEPT government official statements as "nothing to see here".

Skeptics towards UFO's are purely there has never been a smoking gun photograph and witness testimony is worthless.

So again they accept the Government's answer.

I said

There s no accepting of anyone's official statement, there has never been anything to see, and no one has ever provided any evidence. We will stop saying nothing to see here when you actually show us something worth seeing.

I did not copy your idea. I argued your idea and said you are wrong. I don't need to believe anything the government says, do not even need to listen to them once. Asking for evidence is not accepting the government's answer, it's the basis for critical thinking.

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

The OP....IMO....says there are people who are NOT skeptical of the Government's statements on Alien Life. The OP thinks that EVERYONE should be skeptical about the Government's explanation on Alien Life/Contact. The OP argues that on ATS, the skeptics, always BELIEVE the Government's explanation. So therefor are not skeptics, but believers, according to the OP.

I think the whole skeptic/believer culture on ATS is due to the mere language, tone, and phrases people use online. If the skeptics left out their conclusion till the end (same with believers), then everyone is really just a fact-checker and digging for the truth.

However while digging for the truth, one may want to share their overall opinion.

I for one like to discuss the possibilities for Intelligent Life to visit Earth. This conversation requires no evidence. Except if you read a lot about science and technology, then you might be able to use scientific knowledge in the discussion.

Now when people jump to the conclusion that Intelligent Life has visited Earth, then people ask for evidence.

Now what I'm trying to figure out from the OP, as people are skeptical to Alien Visitation due to lack of evidence, then why not also be skeptical to the Government's explanations? Why not be skeptical to both?

Maybe this is a paradox? What will it take for the skeptics to be skeptical to Government claims? Maybe until the science community proves to the world that deep space travel is possible, here is the proof, and we have detected an advanced civilization with our new super advanced telescope...Then maybe those two discoveries will increase the public opinion we have been visited.

If we prove with facts that deep space travel is possible and we detect another advanced civilization, then I would HOPE the ATS skeptics would start to believe that Earth has been visited, and be SKEPTICAL of Government explanations.

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

So your opinion of Alien Life visiting Earth is different than the Government and also different than believers???

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian

originally posted by: game over man
a reply to: ZetaRediculian

This is because there are people who don't want to participate into the subject seriously? I might as well have an Alien right next to me? These are the same people who still won't believe in Aliens even if they landed on the White House Lawn?

I am just saying that its not that complex. If aliens are here then they are here so go bag one. But it seems to me that the believers would rather just pray to this virtual mountain of evidence because that's where the aliens are somehow. I have no idea about what the government says about aliens and it doesn't matter If there is a mountain of evidence. Go find ET and stop waiting for someone else to do the work. The believers are all to busy blaming everyone else why nobody wants to share their beliefs with them. Its like a big collective whine. WAAAAA nobody believes the same as me WAAAAA. Government denyers WAAAAAA. Its just annoying anymore. Go get your own website and just go believe in aliens and you can all whine to each other about your mountain that's being ignored by the mean skeptics. Seriously, maybe you should all just collectively grow a pair.

Are you serious you just want to make fun of others by WAAAAA-ing in their face and telling them go bag an Alien and bring it to me? And you know that finding evidence of Aliens is NOT complex??

originally posted by: game over man
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

The OP....IMO....says there are people who are NOT skeptical of the Government's statements on Alien Life. The OP thinks that EVERYONE should be skeptical about the Government's explanation on Alien Life/Contact. The OP argues that on ATS, the skeptics, always BELIEVE the Government's explanation. So therefor are not skeptics, but believers, according to the OP.

False. His statements have already been quoted. He has flat out stated the only way you can be a SKEPTIC is to BELIEVE aliens have visited Earth and continue to do so. Here is an example.

Those who hold to the position that alien contact has occurred and is occurring? They are the true skeptics.

Those who believe the eyewitnesses and the abductees, despite their being marginalized and ridiculed by official sources and in the mainstream press? They are the true skeptics.

It's time for supporters of alien contact to reclaim the title "Skeptic", don't you think?

As to your other post ...

originally posted by: game over man
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

So your opinion of Alien Life visiting Earth is different than the Government and also different than believers???

I have no idea and don't care if my opinion is different or the same. My position is the same as it will always be, show me the evidence.

a reply to: game over man

Are you serious you just want to make fun of others by WAAAAA-ing in their face and telling them go bag an Alien and bring it to me? And you know that finding evidence of Aliens is NOT complex??

Yes

originally posted by: TheLaughingGod
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

No, actually there really are mountains of it, it's called circumstantial evidence.

And as debonkers said, some people do know, and to them it is very obvious just how biased conventional thinking is.

This goes for paranormal subjects too, you skeptics might not want to believe it but to us you are just a bunch of muggles stumbling around in the dark.

And we know that too, we laugh at your misguided skepticism and your belief. It's not a question of belief or skepticism to us, it's just another fact.

Of course you could never be wrong though, your mind is too finely honed isn't it? Too rational. You imagine yourselves to be a bunch of Spocks but in reality you're just a bunch of intellectual conformists lapping up everything the media or the government tells you as long as it has that stamp of officialdom you so slavishly need.

The real skeptic will recognise the mountains of circumstantial evidence, the millions of experiencers, the various anomalies, the lack of believable explanations - the absolutely ridiculous explanations.

The true skeptic will even recognise the way governments, media, intelligence and military have handled this topic through the decades and will find it highly suspect, especially since their so called rational explanations often are ridiculous in the extreme.

In the future this stance will be equated with flat worlders and people will marvel at the willful ignorance in 20/20 hindsight.

You think you know?

History will prove you wrong!

This is a terrific post, LaughingGod, I thank you for your input. I think willful ignorance is an apt description for the mindset of those who reject the past 70 years of alien contact.

a reply to: debonkers

Willful ignorance is what makes someone think people should except something as fact with no evidence.

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

Ok your personal opinion about evidence is interesting as this is a subject that doesn't have any evidence. So why does it interest you? What draws you to the Alien/UFO forum?

This is what I took away from the OP:

originally posted by: debonkers

So wait a minute...How can the people who believe 70 years of official government denials, denials from mainstream celebrity scientists, mainstream news organizations, intelligence agencies, and academia, how can these people honestly claim to be skeptics?

They can't. Not legitimately, anyway.

They believe every denial from official sources, no matter how far-fetched and unworkable. That isn't a skeptic. Quite the opposite. That's a devotee. Or more accurately, that's a believer.

The OP is saying you should be skeptical of the official story...

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: debonkers
The UFO and alien discussion, at least in internet forums such as this one, often mirror partisan political debate in significant ways. One is the use of positioning; of both yourself and the opposition. To use euphemisms and labeling to establish your view in a more favorable light, and to paint the other side as less legitimate.

Quite often in this debate I hear one side identify themselves as skeptics. The people who deny alien contact often call themselves skeptics. There are forums devoted to skeptics, and a quick visit to one of them will confirm that the self-identified "skeptic" most often rejects the idea that alien contact has occurred, and embraces wholeheartedly the official proclamations of denial.

Those who accept the notion of alien contact being true, have basically ceded the high ground on this, seldom challenging their opponents on their claims of the skeptical position.

Why we let this fallacy continue is beyond me, it's time we called them to the carpet on this one.

Here is the definition of Skeptic:

"noun 1. a person inclined to question or doubt all accepted opinions."

So wait a minute...How can the people who believe 70 years of official government denials, denials from mainstream celebrity scientists, mainstream news organizations, intelligence agencies, and academia, how can these people honestly claim to be skeptics?

They can't. Not legitimately, anyway.

They believe every denial from official sources, no matter how far-fetched and unworkable. That isn't a skeptic. Quite the opposite. That's a devotee. Or more accurately, that's a believer.

They believe the official story that the alien bodies at Roswell were crash test dummies, they ate it up with a spoon and asked for more. And they went on believing it long after it was established as fact that Roswell took place six years before the government used test dummies. Some still believe it. Where is the skepticism?

They believe every official government denial no matter how ludicrous, in lock-step with the official story, every step of the way.

The Phoenix craft? Just planes in formation? Okay!

Rendlesham? Just lights from a distant church? Okay!

The flying saucer at O'Hare airport? Just a weather event? Okay!

Stephansville? Top secret high tech? Okay!

When it comes to UFOs and aliens, these people never met an official story they didn't like.

Are these people Skeptics? Not by any standard.

No, the true skeptics are those that doubt the official accepted opinion. Those who hold to the position that alien contact has occurred and is occurring? They are the true skeptics.

Those who believe the eyewitnesses and the abductees, despite their being marginalized and ridiculed by official sources and in the mainstream press? They are the true skeptics.

It's time for supporters of alien contact to reclaim the title "Skeptic", don't you think?

So then what will we call those that actually believe every official denial? Hmm. How about believer.

You have contradicted the accurate definition of skeptic that YOU provided (ie. a person inclined to question or doubt...) by claiming that skeptics reject the idea that aliens have visited earth. No, skeptics DOUBT or QUESTION the claim that aliens have visited earth. You have further mischaracterized skeptics as believing government claims when that which you really mean to say is that skeptics haven't accepted your claims. We don't accept your claims as fact because you have failed to back your claims (ie. extraterrestials have visited earth and abducted people) with testable evidence.

Perhaps you should reread the definition of skeptic that you posted and ponder it.

Perhaps you would care to take this opportunity to cite the testable evidence proving that extraterrestrials have visited earth and abducted people. That would settle the issue.

No, I stand by my original post, and you've said nothing that makes my point any less valid.

As long as you embrace the official governmental, academic, and mainstream media viewpoint, you have no justification for calling yourself a skeptic.

Conformist? Yes.

Skeptic? No.

Ponder it yourself. Thanks for your post.

a reply to: debonkers

I think willful ignorance

Yes, that is a large part of the problem. Just go believe in aliens. nobody is stopping you. why the constant whining and complaining? I don't believe in your aliens. so what? go have a mountain of evidence party. have fun.

originally posted by: game over man

The OP is saying you should be skeptical of the official story...

No. He said unless you believe aliens have and still visit Earth you can not be a skeptic. I just quoted him.

Those who hold to the position that alien contact has occurred and is occurring? They are the true skeptics.

You can twist and turn all day, it will not change his position.