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Russian supplied drones causing heavy casualties among Ukraininan troops.....

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posted on Feb, 2 2015 @ 10:37 PM
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a reply to: Xcathdra
I see we have to go over this again
Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev told Western nations that they were mistaken in recognizing new leaders in Kyiv www.dw.de...
Russian officials would try to cooperate with the freshly elected Ukrainian government despite doubts of its legitimacy.
rt.com...
Hardly recognizing the Ukraine government.
edit on 2-2-2015 by all2human because: (no reason given)




posted on Feb, 2 2015 @ 11:24 PM
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a reply to: ScientificRailgun




What motivation would Kiev have to destroy the infrastructure of it's own country? They will be burdened with the cost of repairing/replacing that infrastructure once conflict ends.

Poroshenko: "Their children will hole up in the basements - this is how we win the war!"
youtu.be...



posted on Feb, 3 2015 @ 12:50 AM
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a reply to: Xcathdra
Acknowledging that an election took place and recognizing a government as legitimate (as you believe) are two completely different beasts.It may be the same size,shape and weight,but an apple isn't an onion.

Here's proof Russia does not recognize the Ukraine government,nor views it as legitimate:www.rferl.org...
"proof that from the very beginning, the United States was involved in the antigovernment coup that Obama neutrally described as a 'power transition'."Lovrov

edit on 3-2-2015 by all2human because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 3 2015 @ 01:29 AM
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originally posted by: all2human
a reply to: Xcathdra
Acknowledging that an election took place and recognizing a government as legitimate (as you believe) are two completely different beasts.It may be the same size,shape and weight,but an apple isn't an onion.
www.rferl.org...



And the election results for Ukraine, P[resident and Rada, were recognized and accepted by the US, EU, UN and Russia.



posted on Feb, 3 2015 @ 02:10 AM
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originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: all2human
a reply to: Xcathdra
Acknowledging that an election took place and recognizing a government as legitimate (as you believe) are two completely different beasts.It may be the same size,shape and weight,but an apple isn't an onion.
www.rferl.org...



And the election results for Ukraine, P[resident and Rada, were recognized and accepted by the US, EU, UN and Russia.


How did this even become a topic if they recognized the election means they accepted the results. And that means the election results are valid this isn't rocket science people. For example in Crimea the UN Didn't Recognize the results meaning there was no government in Crimea to vote to leave Ukraine.

This is why there is still the ban on crimea for international trade. Also why they no longer have any banking institutions that can do business outside of crimea other than Russia.
edit on 2/3/15 by dragonridr because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 3 2015 @ 04:11 AM
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a reply to: dragonridr

Because people are wanting to play semantics with words and use statements by Russian politicians who have no say in the recognition of another government.

However you raise a good point in that we went way off topic so my bad.



posted on Feb, 3 2015 @ 05:10 AM
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a reply to: Xcathdra




They are defending their nation from Russia and pro Russian rebels who currently, and illegally, occupy Ukrainian territory.


Anyone who's been watching, filtering through the BS spewed ad-nauseam by cowardly anti-Russian propagandists and taking copious mental notes ought to know that sentence really should read:

The Anti-government rebels are defending their nation from US and Western inspired regime change and their puppet government ultimately installed by their coup, and are rightfully and patriotically defending their homeland, neighbours and families from the WMD ballistic missiles, military jet fighters, heavy armour and shelling terror raining down on mostly defenceless residential towns and villages filled with innocent Men, Women, Children and Infants on a daily basis.

Ballistic missiles, much like Saddam Hussain's SCUD missiles are being launched upon civilians...in their bombed out hovels in the middle of Winter...and now 'for the common man' President Obama wants to send more arms and hundreds of millions of dollars to Kiev so they can murder more families in their freezing and bombed out homes, in even greater numbers.

And you have the nerve to claim the Russians are the aggressors!

You trumpeted loudly here on these boards how the vote over Crimea was rigged...because it favoured the Russian view, yet somehow, a Western financed, backed and directed coup followed by a Mickey Mouse election installing a plastic, strings attached, pro-Western bunch of interloping child murderers acting as a Government in Kiev is in your stated view totally legitimate, often used in you posts to highlight 'a fairly elected Ukrainian government' not warranting even a shred of doubt from you in any of your repeated anti-Russian posts...your double standards are a lot more than curious, indeed they are highly suspicious IMO.

You truly have a screwed up view of morality mate..repeatedly condemning a country that is trying to help to protect innocent civilians from murder and misery.

Murder and misery that is incessantly raining down on them via heavy weapons and actual ballistic missiles, doesn't seem to be wrong according to your rantings, but resisting a corrupt implanted plastic government, and happen to live in the East of Ukraine and naturally feel closer to Russia historically and geographically somehow is!

You totally ignore the atrocities and slaughter being sponsored, supplied and directed by the West because you happen to be living in the West?

Total hypocrisy, totally inhuman considering the lives that are being lost daily.

Thankfully, the membership here on ATS is a LOT more intuitive than you and your ilk appear to think or indeed hope they are, and can see right through your drivel, and the blatant and amateurishly crude 'public opinion shaping' about Russia / Ukraine you attempt almost ceaselessly.

You've heard about the ballistic missiles from the West's installed pet government in Kiev i presume?

I only ask, because you don't seem to be screaming it from the virtual rooftops, and wailing at the criminal barbarity and inhumanity of targeting innocent civilians with SCUD type, WMD ballistic missile warfare.

Lucky this time for Russia, it is Kiev who are launching ballistic WMDs to decimate housing estates full of civilians isn't it...if Russia had carried out such crimes against humanity, you'd have never shut up about it in your one sided, bigoted rants.

edit on 3-2-2015 by MysterX because: typo



posted on Feb, 3 2015 @ 05:23 AM
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originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: dragonridr

Because people are wanting to play semantics with words and use statements by Russian politicians who have no say in the recognition of another government.

However you raise a good point in that we went way off topic so my bad.



IOW, according to you, Putin is a prick 99.9% of the time, except when he says or does something you can use...right?



posted on Feb, 3 2015 @ 05:36 AM
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a reply to: MysterX

That's just it.. Its already been proven that the justification Russia used, to protect ethnic Russians, was false. The UN has asked on more than one occasion for Russia to support the justifications with evidence. To date Russia has provided no evidence to the UN to substantiate its claims. Since then Russia has given multiple justifications and has failed to support those as well.

The UN nor the bulk of the planet recognized the pro Russian elections.

As for what Russia says in this particular case they have stated they recognize the elections Ukraine held - Presidential and Parliament. There is really no spin that can be added from my side of the fence. I pointed out that the Russian government did in fact recognize the elections, contrary to what another member was stating.


edit on 3-2-2015 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 3 2015 @ 05:57 AM
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a reply to: Xcathdra

I must admit, many of my objections were before XC was able to show me Russia's recognition of the elections. Like you guys, I vehemently supported Russia. Once I learned Russia recognized this government, I don't see how there's really much an issue.

Just my 2c



posted on Feb, 3 2015 @ 06:19 AM
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originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: MysterX

That's just it.. Its already been proven that the justification Russia used, to protect ethnic Russians, was false. The UN has asked on more than one occasion for Russia to support the justifications with evidence. To date Russia has provided no evidence to the UN to substantiate its claims. Since then Russia has given multiple justifications and has failed to support those as well.

The UN nor the bulk of the planet recognized the pro Russian elections.

As for what Russia says in this particular case they have stated they recognize the elections Ukraine held - Presidential and Parliament. There is really no spin that can be added from my side of the fence. I pointed out that the Russian government did in fact recognize the elections, contrary to what another member was stating.



So...no worries when the EXTREME right wing started patrolling the streets, a la 1930's Germany, exclaiming the spoken Russian language, the Written Russian language and any Russian patriotic overtures would become outlawed and henceforth illegal, to the point of burning books in Russian and intimidation of civilians who only spoke Russian.

That didn't happen in your world? Not to disappoint you, but it did and that has indeed escalated into mass civilian murder using WMDs launched by Kiev order.

But you're right...why should Russia be so impertinent to presume to protect Civilians in the East who are routinely being slaughtered en-masse, slaughter supported and facilitated in part by the US president and US congress?

How could those 'evil Russians' be so...Humane?

Doesn't make any sense at all to want to help stop wholesale, Western financed slaughter does it! (Jesus H!)

We have The Russians once again calling publicly for a halt to the violence, proposing a cease fire while at the same time, Obama and the American government are discussing sending more weapons together with hundreds of millions of dollars in funding for Kiev to increase the slaughter of civilians...how strange that you paint Russians as the nasty, violent, scheming almost inhuman factor, yet it is the Russians that are acting like Human beings, and almost begging for respite from the murder in Ukrainian East, while the 'good, right-on Obama' and America want to increase it by supplying Kiev with weapons and finance?

Yet...that's fine by you it seems, as you do not condemn America for such atrocities, and do not voice support for Russia's call to cease fire...comment on that perhaps?

Can you list the 'bulk of the planet' that you claim did not recognise the Crimean election result?

As far as i can tell, only those being blamed for instigating and inspiring the coup in Kiev were predictably condemning the result, which of course they were always expected to do, since it went against their agendas.

Other, more powerful countries such as China, did not condemn or dispute the results...many others did not argue the result either. Obviously, their statements almost to a nation, expressed a high level of diplomacy in their language, not wanting to antagonise either side in the Ukrainian debacle...but nevertheless...they did not refute the results in Crimea...so really, if you are being honest, your stated 'bulk of the planet' consists of the US and the EU...unsurprisingly, the very countries being widely blamed for the whole mess in the first place!

Not that you would give them credit for it, but Russia is being very accommodating and diplomatic in it's rhetoric over the Ukrainian issue, despite being rounded on and attacked seemingly on every turn for it.

They are noble and ego-less enough to allow the US and EU their election, grudgingly accepting to deal with the puppet regime, offered as an olive branch in the hopes this would lead to peace in Ukraine i suspect..how wrong they appear to be, with Obama now ramping up the rhetoric by claiming to want to send heavy weapons and hundreds of millions of American tax dollars, money the average American can little afford to lose, to the puppet Kiev government with a view towards increasing the attacks and increasing the death and misery of civilians in Ukraine.

This can not in any shape or form be morally justified.

How can the US and EU foist unjustified, punitive sanctions on Russia for defending innocent people in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine from slaughter by WMDs, heavy armour and weaponry, while at the same time, the US is sending arms and finance to Kiev for the purpose for killing more people in the East?

And that Butcher Obama had the gall to accept a peace prize? If the situation for the people caught up in this bloody murder on the ground wasn't so bloody depressing, that one point alone would be hilariously ironic in it's in-your-face, idiotic hypocrisy.

I don't believe the Nobel foundation hands out prizes for the years most hypocritical stars...if they did,Obama and every member of the US congress would be in line for one of those too.


edit on 3-2-2015 by MysterX because: typo



posted on Feb, 3 2015 @ 07:16 AM
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originally posted by: MysterX
So...no worries when the EXTREME right wing started patrolling the streets, a la 1930's Germany, exclaiming the spoken Russian language, the Written Russian language and any Russian patriotic overtures would become outlawed and henceforth illegal, to the point of burning books in Russian and intimidation of civilians who only spoke Russian.


That's just it.. The "law" in question did no such thing. The law required the official language to be Ukrainian and never outlawed any other languages. It required the official functions of the government to be done in Ukrainian. Just as current Russian law requires the Russian language to be used as the official language in government functions.

Secondly the Ukraine Constitution states the very same thing about Ukraine being the official language for government functions.The complete banning as reported by Russian media is a distortion of the facts in an effort to portray an assault on "Russia".


The abolition of the "law" did nothing but remove Russian as an official language for government operations. It did nothing else, did not outlaw anything else, does not prohibit the use of, etc etc.

* - RT News - Canceled language law in Ukraine sparks concern among Russian and EU diplomats

Ukraine’s swift abolition of the law allowing the country’s regions to make Russian a second official language has worried European MPs and officials, and has been condemned outright as a “violation of ethnic minority rights” by Russian diplomats.


* - Official Language of Russia - wiki

Of all the languages of Russia, Russian is the only official language. There are 35 different languages which are considered official languages in various regions of Russia, along with Russian. There are over 100 minority languages spoken in Russia today.


The exact same law for both countries - 1 official state language.




originally posted by: MysterX
That didn't happen in your world? Not to disappoint you, but it did and that has indeed escalated into mass civilian murder using WMDs launched by Kiev order.

There is no official language of the United States. Some states have made English the official language though. Secondly please provide evidence WMD's were used in Ukraine.

Sources / links.




originally posted by: MysterX
But you're right...why should Russia be so impertinent to presume to protect Civilians in the East who are routinely being slaughtered en-masse, slaughter supported and facilitated in part by the US president and US congress?

Several investigations were held by the UN and OSCE and none of the mass slaughter claims that Russia used as justification were ever confirmed. Russia, as has been stated before, has failed to support their claims with evidence.



originally posted by: MysterX
How could those 'evil Russians' be so...Humane?

No one ever said they were not humane.



originally posted by: MysterX
Doesn't make any sense at all to want to help stop wholesale, Western financed slaughter does it! (Jesus H!)

You and others keep stating this claim over and over and yet you have failed to provide any evidence to support it. Please provide specifics with links.



originally posted by: MysterX
We have The Russians once ..snipped for room....want to increase it by supplying Kiev with weapons and finance?

Convenient you, along with Russia and the pro Russians, ignore the first minsk agreement. If you guys cant honor the first one why would you honor any others? To date, Russia and pro Russian have consistently violated the agreement.

Currently the US supplies non lethal aid to Ukraine. Based on Russian actions though that very like will come to an end this week. Obama is meeting with Merkel and the issue of sending lethal weapons is on the agenda.

If Russia can support / supply the rebels then other nations are within their right to support the legitimate government of Ukraine to assist in repelling a Russian invasion.




origin
Yet...that's fine by you it seems, as you do not condemn America for such atrocities, and do not voice support for Russia's call to cease fire...comment on that perhaps?

The various calls by pro Russians / Russians has only been used to resupply and rearm the rebels. They pull the same crap Hamas does.



originally posted by: MysterX
Can you list the 'bulk of the planet' that you claim did not recognise the Crimean election result?

The nations who did is the easier list -6 nations recognize the Crimean election / annexation - -
Afghanistan / Cuba / Nicaragua / North Korea / Syria and Venezuela.

No other country recognized the vote or annexation of Crimea.

Cont in next post
edit on 3-2-2015 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 3 2015 @ 07:16 AM
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originally posted by: MysterX
As far as i can tell, only those being blamed for instigating and inspiring the coup in Kiev were predictably condemning the result, which of course they were always expected to do, since it went against their agendas.


There was no coup. This has been established and verified time and again. If you don't believe it that's on you.



originally posted by: MysterX
Other, more powerful countries such as China, did not condemn or dispute the results...many others did not argue the result either.

China remained neutral. As I stated in my last post only 6 nations recognized the Crimean vote and annexation. China was not one of them. Even Kazakhstan and Belarus stated the territorial integrity of Ukraine has been violated and they do not recognize Crimea as a part of Russia.



originally posted by: MysterX
Obviously, their statements almost to a nation, expressed a high level of diplomacy in their language, not wanting to antagonise either side in the Ukrainian debacle...but nevertheless...they did not refute the results in Crimea...so really, if you are being honest, your stated 'bulk of the planet' consists of the US and the EU...unsurprisingly, the very countries being widely blamed for the whole mess in the first place!

The same language you are talking about was never used to support Russia either. They did NOT recognize the vote or annexation. If they did they never would have abstained.



originally posted by: MysterX

Not that you would give them credit for it, but Russia is being very accommodating and diplomatic in it's rhetoric over the Ukrainian issue, despite being rounded on and attacked seemingly on every turn for it.

I am sure Russia is. They are doing all they can to try and convince the world they did not invade Ukraine and that the bogus elections were somehow fair and impartial when they were anything but. Hence the reason only 6 nations support Russian action while the remainder of the planet says "no".




originally posted by: MysterX
They are noble and ego-less enough to allow the US and EU their election, grudgingly accepting to deal with the puppet regime, offered as an olive branch in the hopes this would lead to peace in Ukraine i suspect..how wrong they appear to be, with Obama now ramping up the rhetoric by claiming to want to send heavy weapons and hundreds of millions of American tax dollars, money the average American can little afford to lose, to the puppet Kiev government with a view towards increasing the attacks and increasing the death and misery of civilians in Ukraine.

Actually what you mean is sovereign Ukraine held valid elections in Ukraine. Russia did not allow it as they have no authority to allow anything in sovereign Ukraine territory.

The Ukraine government was made by the Ukraine people went they went to the ballots and is not a puppet of any nation. The simple fact you are attempting to argue that tells me your argument is based on a falsehood in hopes someone will believe your claim. Since the rest of the world does not good luck in that endeavor.


originally posted by: MysterX
This can not in any shape or form be morally justified.

I agree - The Russian invasion of Ukraine and illegal occupation of its territory is not in any shape or form justified. However Ukraines reaction to the invasion is in fact justified.




originally posted by: MysterX
How can the US and EU foist unjustified, punitive sanctions on Russia for defending innocent people in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine from slaughter by WMDs, heavy armour and weaponry, while at the same time, the US is sending arms and finance to Kiev for the purpose for killing more people in the East?

Because there were no people being persecuted in Crimea or East / South Ukraine. Secondly you are once again using the term WMD. You must support this accusation so please supply a source for it so we can all read it.

The Us is sending financing and non lethal aid to Ukraine. We have not, yet, started sending lethal aid but like I said with Russians increase in hostilities in Ukraine I think that will change - and rightfully so.




originally posted by: MysterX
And that Butcher Obama had the gall to accept a peace prize? If the situation for the people caught up in this bloody murder on the ground wasn't so bloody depressing, that one point alone would be hilariously ironic in it's in-your-face, idiotic hypocrisy.

Are you upset the Butcher Putin didn't get a nobel peace prize?



originally posted by: MysterX
I don't believe the Nobel foundation hands out prizes for the years most hypocritical stars...if they did,Obama and every member of the US congress would be in line for one of those too.

Of course but they would be required to accept their awards when the Russian government is done accepting theirs.

what else ya got?

A reminder.. Please supply evidence and sources to support your claims WMD's are being used in Ukraine.
edit on 3-2-2015 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 3 2015 @ 07:36 AM
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WMD were not used against either side. I believe you are mistaken their nuclear/chemical capable Iskander short range ballistic missiles as actual WMD.

The claim that Ukraine has used ballistic missiles is true. However, these were conventional payloads. The militias have also used missiles and rockets is also true. They've used SCUD and GRAD systems. I believe these are both surface to surface missiles. Although certain scud variants may be ballistic missiles


The only distinction is how the missile system delivers the payload to its target.

In a ballistic missile, the rocket propels the kill vehicle into the atmosphere where it can continue on a ballistic, non-correctable path.

Cruise missiles fly like a jet, hugging the ground and use GPS or command guidance to go onto target

Some surface to surface rockets are fired, unguided, with system set to detonate in proximity to IR or radiation

Anyhow, many of those are nuclear capable.



posted on Feb, 3 2015 @ 10:26 AM
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TBH, it seems that both sides have gone overboard on the brutality side......
I don't seriously believe the leaders of either side are doing much more than enriching themselves in one way or another, by wrapping themselves in the flag and spurring on the destruction and killing.
From my view these people are inured to the horror of causing others deaths and suffering.
BOTH SIDES>



posted on Feb, 3 2015 @ 03:08 PM
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a reply to: all2human




Here's proof Russia does not recognize the Ukraine government,nor views it as legitimate:www.rferl.org...


And here's proof Putin recognizes the elected government as the legit government.


President Vladimir Putin pledged Friday that Russia will respect the results of Ukraine's presidential election, a strong indication the Kremlin wants to cool down the crisis.


www.huffingtonpost.com...


ST. PETERSBURG, Russia - Russian markets rallied on Friday after President Vladimir Putin said he would "respect the choice of the Ukrainian people" in its upcoming presidential election.


www.princegeorgecitizen.com... 8



"proof that from the very beginning, the United States was involved in the antigovernment coup that Obama neutrally described as a 'power transition'."Lovrov


Did you happen to miss this from your source...


Lavrov did not explain how Obama's remarks proved his claims.


www.rferl.org...

Interesting that he makes that remark yet has nothing to back the claim, but somehow you believe it...what makes his claims true?



posted on Feb, 3 2015 @ 06:20 PM
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Russia believe's the government of Ukraine was the victim of a coup , it can't at the same time recognize the government as legitimate
makes zero sense.
I'm confident I've made my point.
edit on 3-2-2015 by all2human because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 3 2015 @ 08:03 PM
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originally posted by: all2human
Russia believe's the government of Ukraine was the victim of a coup , it can't at the same time recognize the government as legitimate
makes zero sense.
I'm confident I've made my point.


Don't think you did. In fact Russia does recognize Kiev as the official government of Ukraine. You argued a point and was proven wrong. And to some extent your right Russia couldn't convince anyone besides RT readers the re was a coup and now stopped trying.

Now here's the problem Russia faces they can't claim it's illegal and try to claim the vote in Crimea was. They got caught in a catch 22 When they said the people have a choice to choose there leaders. At that point they had to accept the results or admit Crimea was a fake election. This happens alot to Putin he gets caught contradicting himself alot.

All this is going to cause long term problems for Russia the latest is there use of grads trying to remove Ukrainian military and they are landing in towns. Russia is creating enemies on there doorstep and Ukraine isn't going to quit. And the dangers to Russia are real since it could be argued that Ukraine is better at building weapons. So they have a country they attacked and they aren't going to roll over this is going to move into Russia as soon as Ukraine decides to change tactics.

This change is coming they have been fighting like Russia get in and slug it out. Western advisors are going to teach them run and gun tactics Russian troops can't handle a truly mobile offensive and will suffer massive casualties. The only reason it hasn't started all ready is they don't have the equipment necessary but it looks like that's about to change soon.

I'm feel sorry for the Russian people they are going to suffer so Putin and his friends can keep there money.



posted on Feb, 3 2015 @ 09:20 PM
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a reply to: tsurfer2000h

There is evidence Yanukovych was removed unlawfully
www.abovetopsecret.com...



edit on 3-2-2015 by all2human because: (no reason given)



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