The Immorality Of Eating Meat When There Are Vegi Alternatives Do People Care?

a reply to: Eunuchorn

And if I had wings on my butt I could fly?

Here is an interesting quote on morality and killing animals for food from wikipedia.

It has been argued that a moral community requires all participants to be able to make moral decisions, but animals are incapable of making moral choices (e.g., a tiger would not refrain from eating a human because it was morally wrong; it would decide whether to attack based on its survival needs, as dictated by hunger). Thus, some opponents[who?] of ethical vegetarianism argue that the analogy between killing animals and killing people is misleading. Humans are capable of culture, innovation and the sublimation of instinct in order to act in an ethical manner. Animals are not, and so are unequal to humans on a moral level. This does not excuse cruelty, but it implies animals are not morally equivalent to humans and do not possess the rights a human has. For example, killing a mouse is not the moral equivalent of committing homicide.[according to whom?]

Benjamin Franklin describes his conversion to vegetarianism in chapter one of his autobiography, but then he describes why he (periodically) ceased vegetarianism in his later life:

...in my first voyage from Boston...our people set about catching cod, and hauled up a great many. Hitherto I had stuck to my resolution of not eating animal food... But I had formerly been a great lover of fish, and, when this came hot out of the frying-pan, it smelt admirably well. I balanc'd some time between principle and inclination, till I recollected that, when the fish were opened, I saw smaller fish taken out of their stomachs; then thought I, 'If you eat one another, I don't see why we mayn't eat you.' So I din'd upon cod very heartily, and continued to eat with other people, returning only now and then occasionally to a vegetable diet. So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable creature, since it enables one to find or make a reason for everything one has a mind to do.
The response of ethical vegetarians is that humans have a choice, whereas animals do not. Hence if hurting or killing animals is not necessary for human survival or health (as it is necessary for obligate carnivores, such as felids), humans can decide to stop doing it, and to outlaw it.

The animal rights movement, sometimes called the animal liberation movement, animal personhood, or animal advocacy movement, is a social movement which seeks an end to the rigid moral and legal distinction drawn between human and non-human animals, an end to the status of animals as property, and an end to their use in the research, food, clothing, and entertainment industries

a reply to: FormOfTheLord

“Man has always assumed that his is the highest form of life in the universe. There is, of course, nothing at all with which to sustain this view.”
― James Thurber

“Trying to be more than human one becomes less.”
― Marty Rubin

Dr. Ichiro Serizawa: The arrogance of men is thinking nature is in their control and not the other way around.
-Godzilla

Then we have this: a recovering VEGAN.

www.tbyil.com...

a reply to: cavtrooper7

I appreciate your input link
Of course there are those who have benefited from a Vegan diet

I could post links but that is unnecessary in this case

For I believe it is for each to decide and put to the Test so to speak

But both sides of this discussion are valid in their own way

It is not a matter of defending one side or the other ... their should be no sides

If one side or other pushes their way onto others then both sides are wrong

Of course there is nothing wrong with both sides presenting their view with information or ideas

But it is an individual choice and each have their own reasons

I want to go veg, I really do. I'm not terribly troubled by the idea of killing animals for food, but I am terribly troubled when I know there's unethical treatment of them before they are slaughtered.

I agree that most foods can be replaced with a veggie alternative that tastes just as good—not necessarily identical flavor-wise, but in my opinion, equal, flavor-wise.

The main obstacle for me is cost. I'm cheap. I love saving money. And usually decent veggie alternatives are significantly more expensive. Not always, but more often than not.

Immoral? not really, meat and fish give is proteins which are broken down well for our bodies to use.
The choice is individual.

I try and buy free range eggs, because I think caging hens is like punishment.
I also try and find out how the animals were kept when I buy meat, this is impossible for some countries though.

The immoral thing here is how we treat animals (welfare & conditions), disease, viruses permeate through the wrong handling and improper treatment of animals used for consumption.
Some pets are treated better than these animals.

post in error

originally posted by: FlyingFox
Eating meat can become immoral. You can't use carnivoreism as an excuse for harming another animal. The world is full of excuses, don't be one of them.

a reply to: FlyingFox

Wow.

Speaking as someone who has difficulty gaining any benefit what so ever from eating vegetables, and therefore consumes a healthy amount of animal product, I have to say I find your assumptive, ill reasoned, and unsupportable position, pretty offensive.

Let's boil it down shall we? You are saying, that even if my individual biochemistry happens to REQUIRE me to eat meat, that I should either starve or be tired all the time from a lack of animal protein in my diet? I call absolute BS on that. Until they not only make artificial meat that contains animal protein, but also contains the correct trace amounts of what that animal would have eaten during its life as an animal grown for eating, I will continue to eat animal matter.

Preferring to eat rather than starve does not make me a bad person. A little less generalisation from the irrational meat dodger crowd would really help this issue get climbed down from one of such contention.

originally posted by: Farlander
I want to go veg, I really do. I'm not terribly troubled by the idea of killing animals for food, but I am terribly troubled when I know there's unethical treatment of them before they are slaughtered.

I agree that most foods can be replaced with a veggie alternative that tastes just as good—not necessarily identical flavor-wise, but in my opinion, equal, flavor-wise.

The main obstacle for me is cost. I'm cheap. I love saving money. And usually decent veggie alternatives are significantly more expensive. Not always, but more often than not.

Whatever is best for you I always say follow your bliss and do what feels right to you.

a reply to: FormOfTheLord

Am vegetarian too, so yes think it's immoral when not needed

Meat substitutions are so disgusting. The best substitute for meat is mushrooms, or egglplant.

Plus animal products only contain protein, carbs, fat, vitamins, and minerals, and plants like herbs and spices have very specific plant medicine.

I've been a vegetarian for 15 years, and have been flirting with veganism in recent months.

I realise that vegetarianism and veganism raises a lot of debate. To the meat eaters here who may be a bit offended at their dietary choices being questioned, trust me - it's not just meat eaters who get a hard time about their diet. I've noticed I have been questioned, labelled and judged very often since choosing not to eat animals, which always struck me as odd, because I never needed to question or judge those that eat meat or enjoy it as a diet staple. I think everyone should live by their own ideals, choices and morals.

I respect choice. Most of my family and all of my close friends (except one) eat meat. I make no issue over that fact, although obviously if someone ridicules or asks me questions, I will explore the issue with them and will defend myself.

I don't personally eat meat because I can live a healthy, fulfilling life without it. I have a strong immune system, get all the vitamins my body needs - without it coming from meat. I also studied the complex psychology of animals such as pigs and cows. Animals that have personality and emotional responses - like any other being - and that has helped me decide I do not want to eat them. I cannot see them as food product to serve my needs anymore.

I understand as life has evolved, out of necessity, humans have eaten meat. It was, for the longest time about survival. Yet I believe we have a vast amount of tasty and healthy alternatives to eat today, making the meat industry and dairy farming a choice - not necessity.

I personally find comparing animals (and we have to include cats, dogs, horses and domestic animals here as well as farm animals) a bit unfair. I love plant and wildlife too. I own plants and have a beautiful garden. Yet, when it comes to plants, my understanding is that they do not have the complex and emotional nervous system that animals possess. No where near. There have been, admittedly, some scientists who have found a very primitive and base form of cognition in some plants. Though if this is true, on any level - that all things we eat cause a degree of suffering - then the most that a vegan or vegetarian wants to achieve is minimising the amount of suffering they contribute to the world at large. We just have to follow our consciences in our own way, how we see fit.

I know that after being forced to watch selected scenes from an abattoir, I'd rather watch strawberries being picked in a field, than animals being slaughtered.

I say all of the above, not to convert, preach or moan, and certainly NOT to judge, but to express why many people are choosing a vegan or vegetarian lifestyle. Everyone just wants to do the little they can to eliminate suffering, even if our actions and attempts have a very minimal impact.

Will nobody think of the plants????

Have some mercy....

i will not apologize for being an omnivore a reply to: FormOfTheLord

On to the point of the thread we dont need to eat meat to live a healthy life I am living proof of that.

There are various substitutes to eating meat would any of those stop you from eating meat?

What if they could make it taste the same or even 3d print meat for you would you eat it over the real thing then?

"There are plenty of veggie meats that have fooled people into thinking they are real meat, would you eat these over real meat? I have tricked a few friends with vegi meat on multiple occasions just to see thier reactions.

I am guessing that most would still want real meat reguardless of how advanced fake meat is or how real it tastes because its not the real thing.

Is it moral to eat animals when you dont need to?

Do you even care at all about the possible immorality of eating animals when you dont need to as there are alternatives that can fool anyone?

Do we have the right to inflict suffering on creatures we consider ourselves"

I have no problem with vegetarians like you so why are you trying to get people who eat meat to stop doing it? I believe that you believe that killing animals for food is wrong because of an emotional attachment. You are healthy without eating meat but many are not. I cannot consume simple sugars and breads without having sugar issues. Pure meat like chicken and beef are really good at both suppressing hunger and stabilizing sugars. Sure, I might be able to find substitutes. However, the fact of the matter is that I choose to eat meat because i like to.

If they came up with some kind of meat that tasted like the real thing, sure I would eat it. But, I like my steaks on the rare side with blood dripping out. That will be hard to make without the animal. Hunting goes back thousands of years. Many humans have always eaten meat. Today, because of the large population of people, it is even more essential. I have heard the argument that we can go out and sterilize big game. But, why would you do that when they can be controlled through regulated hunting and then they can be used as food. I would much rather see this than dead decaying animals laying alongside the road where even lots of vegetarians have killed them with their vehicles.

Anyway, we both have something in common. And, that is the fact that you will not convince me to give up eating meat and I will not convince you to eat it. Most humans like to eat meat, otherwise they would not.

Well I have never eaten meat and I am pretty healthy, as I said before at this point in my life its all about morality. There is no need for me to eat meat so I dont. If I was in a situation of life and death I may eat anything who knows, I think of the movie "Alive" and wonder what would I have done. . . . . .

That still doesn't explain the thread itself trying to introduce your own meme of judgment as a reason to shun those who do consume meat.
On the face of it ,confrontational and emotional, by your delivery ,as are MOST progressive ideas ,"We're better because..." It hasn't changed a thing accept getting jumped by those who prefer otherwise.
THAT is THE seminal problem ,you are seeking to make others like yourself by coersion and confrontation instead of suggestion.