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The Immorality Of Eating Meat When There Are Vegi Alternatives Do People Care?

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posted on Jan, 30 2015 @ 07:14 PM
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a reply to: FormOfTheLord

Whether there's a need to eat animals or not has no bearing on the morality of it. We are omnivores, that people can live long lives without eating meat means that it is possible now without "synthetic" "Real like tasting" meat to eat.

It is still just as moral to eat animals. As a vegetarian, you still eat a living breathing creature. If you don't want to eat animals, feel free to abstain, but don't feel all self righteous because you've become a gatherer as opposed to a hunter.

Jaden




posted on Jan, 30 2015 @ 07:47 PM
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originally posted by: FormOfTheLord
Seems not many are interested in a civil discussion on morality, lots of name calling going on.

Just think of this question is it moral to eat animals if you dont need to?


Yes. Absolutely.

It is no less moral to eat animals than it is to eat plants. A living being being killed is a living being being killed. If it's alive, it doesn't matter if it has eyes or legs or not. Would you, as a vegetarian, eat a blind or lame cow?


edit on 2015/1/30 by nenothtu because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 30 2015 @ 07:55 PM
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After taking a break from ATS for a bit I see the thread has moved on along, interesting points made by a few posters.
Lots of pathetic insults by others its typical.
I am reposting some questions I would like to discuss because I think they were never discussed in depth.
I would also like to see some discussion to the actual OP of why you think its moral or immoral to eat meat when there are alternatives available.
Something people keep saying is that meat tastes good, which has nothing to do with discussion on morality of killing animals for food when there are alternatives.
Yes humans may taste good too, but is it moral for aliens or zombies to eat them?

To look at the morality of the golden rule of do onto others as you want done to yourself from another more ET perspective we are going to the realms of aliens.

To serve man was a good Twilight zone show about aliens eating people under the guise of friendship, they gave humans a book called to serve man.

Which happened to be a cook book of how to cook and eat humans.

Do you think thats an immoral scenario? If so why?


So to up the intellectual anty a bit I thought I would ask folks how moral they would think it would be for a more advanced form of life decided to eat us and farm us just like we do animals.

For example if we were just kept in continual body containers which were grown and phased in and out while we were sleeping we would be none the wiser, with our old memories uploaded into us after they were recorded during our sleep. Our old body and memories souls and all up being served as a various dishes for alien foods. These hypothetical aliens wouldnt need humans to survive but did it as a cultural thing, like a pastime they are addicted to.

Would that be immoral if so why?

How about a violent alien invasion of mass slaughter just for the taste of human flesh like in the movie, "War Of The Worlds" they were eating people and spraying out the remnants all over the cities leaving a red residue everywhere. Note these hypothetical aliens didnt need to do this in this scenario, but for the sake of discussion lets say they were doing it for the taste.

Would you consider that to be an immoral thing to do as an action of an intelligent race of beings?

If yes you consider it immoral for aliens to kill humans in various alien scenarios.
How would you compare these scenarios morally with humans killing animals in our real world today.

In a zombie apocalipse scenario of survival of the most fit would you think it moral or immoral for zombies to eat living humans? Of course zombies could just eat other zombies, or go after animals, or just go to the store and eat at the meat section but they always go after living humans in the movies and this scenario because they like the taste, so there are alternatives for the hypothetical zombie, but they want the humans running down the street. . . .

Although I doubt hypothetical mindless zombies would care if its moral or not.

But we arent mindless far from it we can discuss why we would think its right or wrong for zombies to eat us, for no other reason than they can, and of course human brains, it is a survival of the most fit type of scenario.

Now zombies are mindless while aliens are supposed to be intelligent, but in both scenarios they are eating people are, either morally justified? Why or why not.

How does that compare with our morality in the eating of animals.
edit on 30-1-2015 by FormOfTheLord because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 30 2015 @ 08:03 PM
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originally posted by: pheonix358

Yes it is moral to eat bacon.

P


I believe it's actually MORE than simply "morally okay" to eat bacon. Have you ever dealt with hogs? I have, and because of that have come to the conclusion that mankind has a moral imperative to kill them and eat them. Hogs are so objectionable as organisms that they have no right to live at all - other than to grace a plate.



posted on Jan, 30 2015 @ 08:04 PM
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Fuh-get about it
edit on 30-1-2015 by TheJourney because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 30 2015 @ 08:27 PM
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originally posted by: FormOfTheLord

Something people keep saying is that meat tastes good, which has nothing to do with discussion on morality of killing animals for food when there are alternatives.


I think you would first need to define your stance on "morality" - why, in your estimation, would it be "immoral" to kill an animal to eat, but "moral" to kill a plant? Obviously, since killing organisms is involved in both cases, killing is not the determinative factor - you are perfectly okay with killing, else you would not eat plants, either. Since killing itself is not the problem, what IS the problem that you would find eating an animal to be immoral but eating a plant not to be?

That is something I would have to know in order to address or discuss the matter properly.




Yes humans may taste good too, but is it moral for aliens or zombies to eat them?



Humans taste like pork. Cannibals in new Guinea called humans "long pig" after the introduction of swine, because of that similarity. They took up raising pigs for that reason, and were encouraged in doing that rather than eating other people, by the missionaries.

I can find no reason that it would be immoral for either aliens or zombies to eat humans - even if I were to believe in the existence of either. It's not "immoral" when a bear or a panther or a lion or a crocodile eats a human. Why would it be for an alien to do so? In the matter of zombies, if they are already dead, what part would "morality" play in their mindless exertions?




To serve man was a good Twilight zone show about aliens eating people under the guise of friendship, they gave humans a book called to serve man.

Which happened to be a cook book of how to cook and eat humans.

Do you think thats an immoral scenario? If so why?





One of my favorite episodes of TZ too. The aliens must either have not been all that bright, despite their giant brains, to hand over the cookbook... OR, they figured it wouldn't matter in the end, any more than we can imagine it would matter if we handed over a book titled "To Serve Cows" to cattle.




So to up the intellectual anty a bit I thought I would ask folks how moral they would think it would be for a more advanced form of life decided to eat us and farm us just like we do animals.



I can see no reason why that would be "immoral" - nor can I imagine why an alien would subscribe to human notions of "morality".




For example if we were just kept in continual body containers which were grown and phased in and out while we were sleeping we would be none the wiser, with our old memories uploaded into us after they were recorded during our sleep. Our old body and memories souls and all up being served as a various dishes for alien foods. These hypothetical aliens wouldnt need humans to survive but did it as a cultural thing, like a pastime they are addicted to.

Would that be immoral if so why?



No, it wouldn't.





How about a violent alien invasion of mass slaughter just for the taste of human flesh like in the movie, "War Of The Worlds" they were eating people and spraying out the remnants all over the cities leaving a red residue everywhere. Note these hypothetical aliens didnt need to do this in this scenario, but for the sake of discussion lets say they were doing it for the taste.

Would you consider that to be an immoral thing to do as an action of an intelligent race of beings?


No. Why would it be?




How would you compare these scenarios morally with humans killing animals in our real world today.



No difference.





In a zombie apocalipse scenario of survival of the most fit would you think it moral or immoral for zombies to eat living humans? Of course zombies could just eat other zombies, or go after animals, or just go to the store and eat at the meat section but they always go after living humans in the movies and this scenario because they like the taste, so there are alternatives for the hypothetical zombie, but they want the humans running down the street. . . .

Although I doubt hypothetical mindless zombies would care if its moral or not.

But we arent mindless far from it we can discuss why we would think its right or wrong for zombies to eat us, for no other reason than they can, and of course human brains, it is a survival of the most fit type of scenario.


yes, it is - survival of the fittest. Morality doesn't enter the equation at all.





Now zombies are mindless while aliens are supposed to be intelligent, but in both scenarios they are eating people are, either morally justified? Why or why not.



Yes, they are "morally justified" in both cases, if a moral justification is even required. I can't fathom why one would be.




How does that compare with our morality in the eating of animals.



The same. It's morally justified because organisms must eat to live, and so far there is no inanimate substance I'm aware of that can be eaten for sustenance without first being killed - unless you prefer yours alive. In all cases it was at one time alive, before it was eaten.



posted on Jan, 30 2015 @ 08:29 PM
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Hey, since we're apparently reposting old posts wholecloth, I'll re-pose my earlier challenge to you...

All over the world, at this very moment, wild animals are killing and eating other animals.

Is it moral to allow this, or should we immediately act to remove from the biosphere all animals that live on others, from killer whales, dolphins etc all the way to Jonesy, your house cat?

How can we be moral if we don't stop the death? The only logical path is wholesale slaughter of every omnivore and carnivore from the earth.

Join with me brother, we'll go kill some lions and tigers, then we'll go spear Flipper.

Because if it's immoral for US to eat meat, then surely it's immoral for ANYTHING to eat meat. If the world is full of such immorality, and we as humans are specially qualified to spot and remedy this, then isn't it incumbent upon us to fix the situation by killing every omnivore and carnivore?

edit on 30-1-2015 by Bedlam because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 30 2015 @ 08:34 PM
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a reply to: Bedlam

I'll join you in your quest to moralize the planet. I'm especially interested in Baby Back Flipper Ribs. Any recommendation on which barbeque sauce I should go with. I'm thinking a carolina sauce would go well with it since it's sorta seafood. But maybe something sweeter like a St. louise style would work better. F it. Lets kill enough to try all the sauces. Soon with the help of the ATS community we can rid the world of the cruel immorality of eating dinner.



posted on Jan, 30 2015 @ 08:46 PM
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a reply to: FormOfTheLord

no. wrong.

not all people are the same. not all peoples chemistry is the same. some might think it immoral to tell people how to eat.



posted on Jan, 30 2015 @ 08:48 PM
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As I sit and think about the "alien" angle, I'm pretty sure I would eat them, too - if they didn't eat me first. I'll eat damned near anything that doesn't eat me first.

Would it be "immoral" in your world view to eat some other organism that was trying to eat YOU? Or would it be preferable to you to just go ahead and let them eat you?

Just think - us omnivores that lean towards carnivory might be the salvation of the human species... one meal at a time!



posted on Jan, 30 2015 @ 08:54 PM
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a reply to: FormOfTheLord

Here is the ingredient list for veggie burgers: VEGETABLES (MUSHROOMS, WATER CHESTNUTS, ONIONS, CARROTS, GREEN BELL PEPPERS, RED BELL PEPPERS, BLACK OLIVES), TEXTURED VEGETABLE PROTEIN (SOY PROTEIN CONCENTRATE, WHEAT GLUTEN, WATER FOR HYDRATION), EGG WHITES, COOKED BROWN RICE (WATER, BROWN RICE), ROLLED OATS, CORN OIL, CALCIUM CASEINATE, SOY SAUCE (WATER, SOYBEANS, SALT, WHEAT), CONTAINS TWO PERCENT OR LESS OF ONION POWDER, CORNSTARCH, SALT, HYDROLYZED VEGETABLE PROTEIN (CORN, SOY AND WHEAT), AUTOLYZED YEAST EXTRACT, NATURAL FLAVORS FROM NON-MEAT SOURCES, SUGAR, SOY PROTEIN ISOLATE, SPICES, GARLIC POWDER, DEXTROSE, JALAPEÑO PEPPER POWDER, CELERY EXTRACT.

Gross. I will take a grass fed buffalo steak, thanks. Corn, soy and wheat highly processed are causing all sorts of problems in our diets.



posted on Jan, 30 2015 @ 08:57 PM
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originally posted by: BASSPLYR
a reply to: Bedlam

I'm especially interested in Baby Back Flipper Ribs.


♫ Everyone loves the king of the sea,
ever so tasty and tender is he,
flaky and moist all basted with lime,
and with tarragon tastes so fine! ♫

♫ They call him Flipper! Flipper!
Cooks faster than lightning,
no meat you see,
tastes better than he!

And you know Flipper
lives in a world full of wonder,
Of food we can plunder,
under the sea!♫



posted on Jan, 30 2015 @ 08:58 PM
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originally posted by: artnut

Gross.


Full of casein, eggs, and MSG! Yum!



posted on Jan, 30 2015 @ 09:00 PM
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a reply to: Bedlam

Thanks for the laugh. That was great!



posted on Jan, 30 2015 @ 09:00 PM
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a reply to: nenothtu

my thoughts:

it is ego that drives the conversation to begin with. First, you have the basic human ego where we declare supremacy over the planet. "Man eaters" are reviled and hunted down. We do not allow beasts that tend to prey on humans to exist. We will hunt tigers and lions across continents, or sharks across oceans, to make sure that we kill a man eater. We do not recognize that, despite our hubris, we are part of the food chain on planet Earth. We are a source of protein, like any other animal. We are prey and predator, like so mny other animals.

Beyond that, the ego of believing that ones own way of doing something is the right way, discrediting the way others live as immoral. To claim there are "alternatives". Because yeah..."alternatives" sound like a real quality of life builder when it comes to food. But going that one step further, and claiming that my behavior is immoral because it is different....that is pure ego.


Which really follows the stereotype for vegans. Like that joke, "A vegan, an atheist, and a crossfitter walk into a bar. I know because they told everyone within the first 30 seconds".



posted on Jan, 30 2015 @ 09:01 PM
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I live in the mountains and there are bears around here. Now, if a bear came charging at me would it be immoral if I shot it and then ate it?



posted on Jan, 30 2015 @ 09:03 PM
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originally posted by: artnut
a reply to: FormOfTheLord

Here is the ingredient list for veggie burgers: VEGETABLES (MUSHROOMS, WATER CHESTNUTS, ONIONS, CARROTS, GREEN BELL PEPPERS, RED BELL PEPPERS, BLACK OLIVES), TEXTURED VEGETABLE PROTEIN (SOY PROTEIN CONCENTRATE, WHEAT GLUTEN, WATER FOR HYDRATION), EGG WHITES, COOKED BROWN RICE (WATER, BROWN RICE), ROLLED OATS, CORN OIL, CALCIUM CASEINATE, SOY SAUCE (WATER, SOYBEANS, SALT, WHEAT), CONTAINS TWO PERCENT OR LESS OF ONION POWDER, CORNSTARCH, SALT, HYDROLYZED VEGETABLE PROTEIN (CORN, SOY AND WHEAT), AUTOLYZED YEAST EXTRACT, NATURAL FLAVORS FROM NON-MEAT SOURCES, SUGAR, SOY PROTEIN ISOLATE, SPICES, GARLIC POWDER, DEXTROSE, JALAPEÑO PEPPER POWDER, CELERY EXTRACT.

Gross. I will take a grass fed buffalo steak, thanks. Corn, soy and wheat highly processed are causing all sorts of problems in our diets.


mmm....that sounds wholesome. Nothing says "quality" like "soy protein isolate".



posted on Jan, 30 2015 @ 09:04 PM
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originally posted by: Skid Mark
I live in the mountains and there are bears around here. Now, if a bear came charging at me would it be immoral if I shot it and then ate it?


Is IT immoral if it kills and eats YOU? And are we immoral for not eliminating it and its murderous evil ways? If it doesn't eat YOU, it'll eat some other innocent herbivore.



posted on Jan, 30 2015 @ 09:13 PM
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I wish the OP would answer the question, where is the line he wants to draw.

We could all switch our protein intake to insects, but then, is that wrong too.

In other countries, insects are a major source of protein and they are yummy, apparently!

I get the feeling he doesn't want us to eat cows, sheep and pigs.

Are lizards and snakes OK?

Where oh where is the mystical line where morality takes a jump to the left.

Sadly though, the OP remains silent on this issue.

P



posted on Jan, 30 2015 @ 09:16 PM
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originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: FormOfTheLord



no. wrong.



not all people are the same. not all peoples chemistry is the same. some might think it immoral to tell people how to eat.






This is not a discussion telling you what to eat, its a discussion on the morality of killing animals for food when we dont need to becuase our technology gives us other less harmful options.

So far all I see people saying is it tastes good so kill and eat it, which has no place in a conversation on morals and ethics.




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