NLBS #35: The Anti-Vaccination Movement and the Measles Outbreak

originally posted by: Pardon?

originally posted by: Limbo
I've not really looked into anti vac debate but I did read these comments on a forum.

rawnaturalhealth.com...

The normal rate of autism is about 1/4000. The rate of autism in industrialized nations (ex: Russa, China, Japan and South Korea) without using synthetic heavy metals used as a preservative in vaccines is about 1/4000. The current rate of autism in the US, Canada and many other industrialized nations which use synthetic heavy metals to preserve vaccines is approximately 1/100.

Scotland, England, Finland and Norway had a rate of autism of approximately 1/100 when heavy metals were used. After they banned the use of heavy metals in vaccines, the rate dropped to approximately 1/4000.

Also about Wakefield.

www.ebcala.org...

Co-Author of Lancet MMR-Autism Study Exonerated on All Charges of Professional Misconduct

www.thelibertybeacon.com...

Controversial Doctor and Autism Media Channel Director proven right – MMR Vaccine Causes Autism & Inflammatory Bowel Disease.

Two landmark events – a government concession in the US Vaccine Court, and a groundbreaking scientific paper – confirm that physician, scientist, and Autism Media Channel [AMC] Director, Dr. Andrew Wakefield, and the parents were right all along.

So I really don't know..
Limbo

Just out of interest, which forum were you on?
I'm guessing it wasn't a medical or science based one.

UK autism rates
It was never 1 in 4000.
www.autism.org.uk...
Vaccines don't cause autism.
Here's summary of a meta analysis on over 1.2 million children.
www.iflscience.com...

Was Wakefield right because his co-author was exonerated?
No.
scienceblogs.com...
...and here's why, in comic strip form...
darryl-cunningham.blogspot.co.uk...

A court ruling does not science nor medicine make.
And the paper which is cited has no mention of measles, vaccine or MMR contained in it.
journals.plos.org.../journal.pone.0058058
This study was very different from Wakefield's and in previous similar studies, Stephen Walker went out of his way to explain why it has nothing to do with vaccines.

Is there anything more I can help you with?

Forum I read it on is my business. Sorry.
Also Orac (David Gorski) is well know for posting. Why not ask him about Coley's Toxins and cancer. Alt cancer treatments don't work?
Limbo

originally posted by: Limbo

originally posted by: Pardon?

originally posted by: Limbo
I've not really looked into anti vac debate but I did read these comments on a forum.

rawnaturalhealth.com...

The normal rate of autism is about 1/4000. The rate of autism in industrialized nations (ex: Russa, China, Japan and South Korea) without using synthetic heavy metals used as a preservative in vaccines is about 1/4000. The current rate of autism in the US, Canada and many other industrialized nations which use synthetic heavy metals to preserve vaccines is approximately 1/100.

Scotland, England, Finland and Norway had a rate of autism of approximately 1/100 when heavy metals were used. After they banned the use of heavy metals in vaccines, the rate dropped to approximately 1/4000.

Also about Wakefield.

www.ebcala.org...

Co-Author of Lancet MMR-Autism Study Exonerated on All Charges of Professional Misconduct

www.thelibertybeacon.com...

Controversial Doctor and Autism Media Channel Director proven right – MMR Vaccine Causes Autism & Inflammatory Bowel Disease.

Two landmark events – a government concession in the US Vaccine Court, and a groundbreaking scientific paper – confirm that physician, scientist, and Autism Media Channel [AMC] Director, Dr. Andrew Wakefield, and the parents were right all along.

So I really don't know..
Limbo

Just out of interest, which forum were you on?
I'm guessing it wasn't a medical or science based one.

UK autism rates
It was never 1 in 4000.
www.autism.org.uk...
Vaccines don't cause autism.
Here's summary of a meta analysis on over 1.2 million children.
www.iflscience.com...

Was Wakefield right because his co-author was exonerated?
No.
scienceblogs.com...
...and here's why, in comic strip form...
darryl-cunningham.blogspot.co.uk...

A court ruling does not science nor medicine make.
And the paper which is cited has no mention of measles, vaccine or MMR contained in it.
journals.plos.org.../journal.pone.0058058
This study was very different from Wakefield's and in previous similar studies, Stephen Walker went out of his way to explain why it has nothing to do with vaccines.

Is there anything more I can help you with?

Forum I read it on is my business. Sorry.
Also Orac (David Gorski) is well know for posting. Why not ask him about Coley's Toxins and cancer. Alt cancer treatments don't work?
Limbo

So when you said at the bottom of your post "i don't know" you didn't mean that did you?
The subject of this thread is vaccination, not alt cancer treatments.

Anyway, if you still really "don't know" have quick read of this.
pediatrics.about.com...

excuse me, can I say something?

I may be Neolithic but paleo diet from birth you can pretty much deflect any virus out there . Yep I said it proper nutrition and a healthy mind can stave off any intrusion into your body your temple your raison d'etre. I dont get why this concept is so hard. Do whats right for your body and soul and you will never get sick.

originally posted by: SkippyBalls

originally posted by: Pardon?

originally posted by: satellite1
a reply to: theNLBS when I was a kid in England we all got measles..i never heard of 1 fatality or anyone been off school more than a couple of weeks. Fear mongering.

That's strange because we treated several in our PICU for measles complications.
I'm guessing you weren't looking for them.

How does that refute what that poster said?

It wasn't meant to refute anything.
He said he didn't know of anyone harmed by measles and I said I've seen them.

Who's right?
Both of us.

a reply to: Pardon?

You said that his comment was strange because you did witness some cases of measles complications. Just because you did doesn't mean his comment is strange.

originally posted by: SkippyBalls
a reply to: Pardon?

You said that his comment was strange because you did witness some cases of measles complications. Just because you did doesn't mean his comment is strange.

Correct.
It's strange because it's not how I remember it.
It's strange how time alters our memories especially when they don't impact on you.

a reply to: Pardon?

It's strange because it's not how I remember it.

You know who that poster is and you went to the same school in the same period?

That's strange because we treated several in our PICU for measles complications.

So you were active in the medical field. Is it strange that you would encounter more cases than, let's say, a person who is not?

site ownership who maintains strict editorial agnosticism and simply provides a collaborative venue for free expression.

Does ats have a vaccine stance?

I have four children so to speak, two of my babies are dogs. I have chosen to vaccinate everyone. However, I spread out how many vaccines the dogs get, and how often, in order to be safer. With the dogs I wait until I have to board them at the kennel or the groomers to get the shots. So it may be 14 or 16 months instead of every precise twelve months. The natural dog people think the vaccines at puppy hood last their whole life and that veterinarians want to make more money with selling annual shots. The dog kennel people just do not want to get sued for anyone's dog catching a disease, so they insist on current shot records. I stopped getting the dogs repeat Lyme disease shots because they are not mandatory. My dogs are 9 and 5 years old. They have immunity against Lyme disease now, I would think. Also some natural dogs people suggest that puppies have immunity from their mothers and that rushing to get them shots so early in life is dangerous. We bred the mother dog and sold the puppies by three and a half months without the shots. I felt that it was an option for the people who bought them.

I have a friend in Ohio that breeds horses. She has to pay the veterinarian for each barn call. She had an expensive young foal that she had shots given to during a prescheduled barn call for the other horses. It was really too soon for the little horse and it died from the vaccines. I think waiting to administer shots to young animals for a few months is smart.

My children got all their vaccines including the chicken pocks and menegitus. I feel it is too scary not to vaccinate, but limiting how many shots at a doctors visit is wise. Most state's schools require vaccines or you are not admitted to the school for enrollment. This includes the colleges. We just can not have disease running around. I am truly empathetic towards anyone who suffers any side effects. Also check the shot out before the doctor or vet inject someone with it. Take a look.

originally posted by: Pardon?

originally posted by: satellite1
a reply to: theNLBS when I was a kid in England we all got measles..i never heard of 1 fatality or anyone been off school more than a couple of weeks. Fear mongering.

That's strange because we treated several in our PICU for measles complications.
I'm guessing you weren't looking for them.

how many died mid 80's ? Cos nearly all the school and friends at some stage got measles. Parents got their kids together with a kid who had measles, I had measles and chicken pox as a kid .. It was almost inevitable you'd get it. It was not a big deal at all. It's amazing how the perception of things varies from what country you're in.

originally posted by: boymonkey74
a reply to: ControlledChaos

You give your kid tuna?
More mercury in that than a vaccine shot.

Once again there is a world of difference between eating a substance and having the same substance injected into your body through an inoculation.

If you don't get that I don't know how else to explain it to you.

Also an interesting bit of information that has already been brought up in this thread but I feel I should reiterate it as it isn't being addressed is the rate of autism in new births in the United States vs the rate of autism in new births in Canada.

Canada, who does not allow the use of synthetic heavy metals (Mercury) in pediatric vaccines has an autism rate of about 2.2% for every 1000 births.

The United States on the other hand which does allow vaccines to contain Mercury have an autistic diagnosis range from 8.9 -14.1% for every 1000 births.

Interesting how some still feel there is no correlation between vaccines, specifically the preservatives used such as Mercury, and the increased rates of autism in our country. Simply mind boggling.

You can look these rates of autism up to fact check if you like. They are valid.

Just think up until the 1910 arsenic or mercury were used to treat some diseases. The treatment wasn't even organic mercury.

Thank you penicillin.

originally posted by: noeltrotsky

originally posted by: SkepticOverlord
There is currently no gunpoint for parents opting out of childhood vaccinations. There should be other restrictions/penalties, but no guns. Just forms to fill out.

Hell of a good point. Let's see non-vaceener's sign a medical release and accept all medical costs associated with diseases that would have been prevented for their children. Then when their kids get sick and Mom and Dad go bankrupt because they skipped the vaccine society doesn't have to bail them out. It was their choice.

Heck of a good point.

Lets see Vaccine manufactures take on the same exact risk. They sign a release form accepting all the medical costs associated with the side effects of vaccines.

It is easy to play devils advocate here.

God Bless,

originally posted by: SkepticOverlord

originally posted by: FyreByrd
What about individual 'freedom'?

What about it?

What about my freedom to be able to send my children to school and group events with the assurance that no other kids might be carrying preventable diseases?

Freedoms are good, but so is acceptance of responsibility. If you don't want to vaccinate your children, you should be prepared to accept reasonable consequences of your children being exempt from group situations.

People freaked out over Ebola, and part of that was rather intense frustration over a lack of an effective vaccine. Measles is exponentially more contagious, kills, and has a long list of potential debilitating outcomes for survivors.

You utilized the freedom you have to give your child the vaccine. He should be protected from "preventable diseases" any kids might be carrying in any group activities.

If vaccination is the way to go, and your child is vaccinated; wouldn't the law of survival dictate those who do not vaccinate will die off? If vaccines actually do what they say they do; your free choice to vaccinate will protect your child. Those vaccinated are protected right?

Why infringe on another person's freedom?

originally posted by: kosmicjack

originally posted by: fictitious
a reply to: pasiphae

Also, to point out, my husband suddenly demanded to get our daughter's MMR shot immediately because of the Disney land outbreak. He didn't even realize she's still too young. He did absolutely no research. The media is doing a good job at fear mongering.

That's my thought as well...pretty convenient to capitalize on this as the icing on the cake following about a year long push to shame "anti-vaxers". Throw in the all-American Disneyland for good measure, it's better than a movie script.

Even the term "anti-vax" is loaded language to imply a bit of anti-science shame. I am not "anti-vax", I'm delayed vax and one at a time vax. I'm for not giving a newborn a hep B shot at the hospital, for what is essentally a sexually transmitted disease.

But, as others have said...why freak out on doubters when even vaccinated people are getting measles? It's more than ironic, it's idiotic and a campaign sure to be funded by Big Pharma. What better way to gin up demand for a dubiously effective immunization than an outbreak? Especially if you scapegoat your harshest critics....

Another angle on this measles outbreak which would have been more discerning and appropriate for a conspiracy site is immigration. Who brought a previously irraducated disease into this country? How about Whooping Cough? No small wonder this outbreak started in the Southwest.

My take away from this particular installment of NLBS is that it's possible to find "evidence" on any world view while googling the internet. I'll stick to real life, anecdotal accounts from parents worldwide. I for one tend to think autism is an autoimmune reaction to an environmental factor that can be exacerbated by both vaccines and gut biology. It's complicated.

Awesome post.

I feel the same way, I have given my son most of his vaccines one at a time, and I am spacing them out so as not to overload his immune system.

I remain undecided with regards to MMR; it will be the last set of immunizations I give my son after all others have been completed. So his whole immune system can focus on processing the MMR without interferance, I have explained this approach with his doctor and he is working with us to get him immunized as fast and safely as possible.

Not anti-vax or pro-vax; I am anti-(25 vaccines during the first 2 years).

originally posted by: AutumnWitch657

originally posted by: sosobad
a reply to: theNLBS

Great episode, expect a lot of heat though. Quite frankly anyone that doesn't get their kids vaccinated needs to be held accountable if anything happens. My partners step mother tried to convince her that we didn't need to get the vaccinations for my sons, very pushy about it. I eventually told her that it ain't her choice and to drop it. She convinced my partners sister to not get her kids done and I honestly feel sorry for them. Their parents had a chance to protect them against getting a desease and chose not to because of some twat that got struck off the register for dodgy dealings.

I guess those kids are being home schooled because they're not getting into any public school without immunization records that are complete and up to date.
Can you see the future when all of these under educated home schooled become the burden to society they are surly bound to become?

Most parents can opt out of the "required" immunization records, because they have freedom of religion which protects individual rights to determine what does and does not go into the "temple" (body is a temple to many religious people).

What, in your opinion, makes a home schooled student an "under-educated" student?

Do you think our public school system is better then one tailor made for a child under a parents guidance?

I guarantee I can teach my son the same curriculum taught in public schools far more effectively then a public school teacher can; even if for the simple fact it is one on one instruction tailor made for his style of learning, you cannot get that in any public school environment.

Where is your bias against home schooling coming from?

Usually I have found those with these feelings are really anti-religion.

God Bless,

Good thing all the undocumented individuals in CA and AZ are vaccinated. If not, they would probably contribute to the problem.


So again, good thing that they are.

so when we were all kids and measels was going around they would throw us all in a room together so we would all get it and we would be immune when it cycled back around.
Now i remember having this done to me along with a bunch of my cousins and maybe some ring ins. now jump forward 30 plus years being generous and we are all still here.
watching this clip and the almost hysteria being whipped up is bringing a kind of awkward smile to my face to say the least, i kind of have to laugh at the dont come near me i have had the vaccine but i might die line.
So i guess when you look at it, i'm not vaccinated but i'm sure as # not as scared about catching the measles as some people here.lol.

or it could have been chicken pox.

originally posted by: theNLBS
Last week, our episode on EMF Sensitivity inspired a lot of hate from many of our viewers, so for today's episode, we decided cover something "less controversial," the Anti-Vaccination Movement. Following the outbreak of measles in California, and the ensuing measles outbreak in Arizona reaching critical levels, the anti-vaccination movement is being blamed, and for very good reason. We dig into the misinformation, deception, and outright lies at the center of this movement, including the supposed CDC whistleblower of a few months ago. And for good measure, we also look at the pharmaceutical industrial complex as an influencing factor in why some parents are opting out of vaccinations. So enjoy the show while we don our flame-proof gear.

The pro-vaccine anti-health, anti-choice movement is not only very scary, forcing the injection of toxic (by OSHA not me) chemicals that you are required to use a HAZMAT suit to handle, unless its injected in you by a vaccine manufacturer but they rely on the poor whited population to not do any real research and just parrot the line given in the media.

Not to mention the origional fraud of herd immunity 'A 2012 study led by Dr. David Witt, an infectious disease specialist at the San Rafael, California Kaiser Permanente Medical Center, concluded that whooping cough, pertussis, occurs more among vaccinated children than children not vaccinated for pertussis with the DtaP vaccine that replaced the DTP vaccine."

originally posted by: PLAYERONE01
so when we were all kids and measels was going around they would throw us all in a room together so we would all get it and we would be immune when it cycled back around.
Now i remember having this done to me along with a bunch of my cousins and maybe some ring ins. now jump forward 30 plus years being generous and we are all still here.
watching this clip and the almost hysteria being whipped up is bringing a kind of awkward smile to my face to say the least, i kind of have to laugh at the dont come near me i have had the vaccine but i might die line.
So i guess when you look at it, i'm not vaccinated but i'm sure as # not as scared about catching the measles as some people here.lol.

or it could have been chicken pox.

Exactly, they are turning something everyone on the planet has has since the beginning of time, into something you should fear? its a fraud, I had measles, and mumps and chicken pox, and I am the healthiest person I know.