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Religion, Scripture and logical thinking

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posted on Feb, 10 2015 @ 10:41 AM
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a reply to: Develo

okay, let's then look at the fall narrative. if death wasn't applied to humans as a punishment, when there was no death for humans before that, what is the fall narrative about and why does jesus do away with death in the book of revelation, if it's such a necessary thing? (you believe in the new testament, correct?). animals die, does that mean the adam, who were formed in the image of elohim did?> why use it as a threat "thou wilt surely die", if it was just business as usual.
edit on 10-2-2015 by undo because: (no reason given)




posted on Feb, 10 2015 @ 10:42 AM
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originally posted by: undo
ice age. black sea flood. they never happened?


No civilizations predated the Ice Age so it wasn't a catastrophic event that ended much of human civilization. There were definitely towns and cities that sprung up during these times, but we have ZERO evidence that any human society existed prior to the Ice Age. The Black Sea flood wasn't a global event.


but it does mean that they aren't impossible. and if they aren't impossible, they are no longer under the definition of "not possible."


Semantics. Until you can produce the evidence that humans in that time could do these things then it remains in the realm of fantasy.


how? rocks have molecular and atomic properties - many containing crystals, and crystals are used in technology today. so are metals, and they had access to metals as well. heck even the book of genesis talks about there being "good gold" in the land of havilah.


That's like saying that we should be able to fill our computers with sand and they will work because computer chips are made from silicon.


well you're the one that assumed that ancient egypt was to be understood as anti-biblical, and that i was embracing pagan egypt.


I made no assumptions about anything. The bible literally says not to believe in any other gods other than the one. That is the damn First Commandment. And I got the part about your beliefs in ancient religions from you. Up until I talked to you today, I didn't think there was anyone on the planet who thought that the Sumer or Egyptian gods were real (besides the AA people that is).


your belief structure hinges on the idea that ancient history is entirely religious, when i think it's historical, which also includes, among other things, descriptions of their religious activities.


I've already told you that studying these belief structures for their religious activities is fine, but a story of someone interacting with the gods or doing something that he shouldn't be able to do within the confines of science ISN'T history. It is mythology. HISTORY is when someone writes about the past in a secular format.



posted on Feb, 10 2015 @ 10:51 AM
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originally posted by: undo
when there was no death for humans before that


You invented this

“The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”



originally posted by: undo
what is the fall narrative about


Certainly not about death


originally posted by: undo
and why does jesus do away with death in the book of revelation, if it's such a necessary thing?

The book of revelation is a metaphor. For spiritual things. You really think human can be physically immortal? Even if it was true, it would be bad for the universe. Always more humans consuming always more resources. A cancer.




originally posted by: undo
animals die, does that mean the adam, who were formed in the image of elohim did?

Yes, "in the likeliness" doesn't mean they were identical. Your assumption. The Bible is clear, only God is eternal.



originally posted by: undo
why use it as a threat "thou wilt surely die", if it was just business as usual.


Why do people use this as a threat today? "If you smoke you will die" We aren't immortals and yet we take this seriously.


Your arguments don't make sense, I cannot seriously exchange with someone who is so misled they can't even recognize it anymore.

Have a good day.
edit on 10-2-2015 by Develo because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 10 2015 @ 10:52 AM
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originally posted by: Develo

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

The ancient world didn't undergo any global catastrophes either.


That's a very bad argument because the ancient world faced many global changes and catastrophes like the rising of the sea that created the Mediterranean sea and submerged the Doggerland, the eruption of Thira creating a tsunami, the Storegga Slide and many other events easily impressing the humans from the late paleolithic. These civilizations, though without a written culture, had very developed oral cultures and used epics and poems to remember and transmit their knowledge and stories.


Those are all localized catastrophes. In order for a catastrophe to live up to the "global" adjective, it needs to affect the ENTIRE world and all of its civilizations simultaneously. I'm not arguing that catastrophes didn't happen in the past, just that no global ones happened.


Actually most people studying myths and religions agree that almost all myths from all cultures and religions can be traced back to 2 original myths, one from Africa and one from Oceania if I remember correctly (I can check later if anyone is interested).


Source? While I've heard that many religions stole from other religions, I have NEVER heard someone say that all myths can be traced back to 2 original myths. For instance, much of Zoroastrianism seems to compete again the polytheistic religions of the day. It is the origin of the good versus evil paradigm (that Christianity and Islam later stole). So before looking anything up, I disagree with this claim.


Passages like the flood are also very common and most likely refer to real events like a tidal wave in or the people living in Doggerland being forced to leave their lands because of the rising of the sea.


Possibly, but it is damn hard to read between what is fact and what is fiction to the point that the only thing I can say for sure is that a particularly nasty flood happened thousands of years ago.



posted on Feb, 10 2015 @ 10:52 AM
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a reply to: Krazysh0t




within the confines of science


but it is almost entirely within the confines of science. first you say, not possible. i show possible. you say not important that it's possible because you need hard evidence. i'm saying you wouldn't find our type of tech in their digsites because they were apparently operating with a form of non-invasive power generation using natural materials. your analogy of a sand filled computer is actually pretty good since data can be put in anything that can hold data, such as dna, crystals, and so on. i've even read about a computer for a plane's black box being built with photosensitive algae for the transistors.



posted on Feb, 10 2015 @ 11:00 AM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t
Those are all localized catastrophes. In order for a catastrophe to live up to the "global" adjective, it needs to affect the ENTIRE world and all of its civilizations simultaneously. I'm not arguing that catastrophes didn't happen in the past, just that no global ones happened.


The end of the ice age was certainly not localized and certainly caused a lot of water-related catastrophes all over the place where most neolithic humans lived.

After that it's just a matter of time for different cultures to share and spread there local stories and it becomes a new mythos. That's how culture works. I mean you can see in thread that even Americans believe in the events in the bible even if:
- it did not happen in their country
- they weren't there when it happens



originally posted by: Krazysh0t

Source? While I've heard that many religions stole from other religions, I have NEVER heard someone say that all myths can be traced back to 2 original myths.


Sure I'll post it later when I get the info. It's not because you are not aware of it that it doesn't exist. Plenty of anthropologists are studying this possibility.

P.S.: these myths are creation myth so of course they are 100% allegorical. No man was alive when the universe was created.

Yet they are very interesting because they show how most different cultures have common roots


originally posted by: Krazysh0t
Possibly, but it is damn hard to read between what is fact and what is fiction to the point that the only thing I can say for sure is that a particularly nasty flood happened thousands of years ago.


I agree, it's hard. The bible is a book full of old myths. Yet it doesn't mean these myths (besides the creation myth, creation myths are different things) cannot be inspired by real events dramatized over time.
edit on 10-2-2015 by Develo because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 10 2015 @ 11:08 AM
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a reply to: undo

This is all pseudo-science since no such tech like this actually exists. It is all theoretical. And if WE haven't invented it yet, the ancients sure as crap didn't invent it. Saying that they did is an assumption without evidence.



posted on Feb, 10 2015 @ 11:15 AM
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originally posted by: Develo
The end of the ice age was certainly not localized and certainly caused a lot of water-related catastrophes all over the place where most neolithic humans lived.


Yes, but that only matters to people who lived on the coast. People inland probably didn't notice a thing, except maybe a shorter trip to the shore.


After that it's just a matter of time for different cultures to share and spread there local stories and it becomes a new mythos. That's how culture works. I mean you can see in thread that even Americans believe in the events in the bible even if:
- it did not happen in their country
- they weren't there when it happens


Believing in something doesn't mean it is real. It is entirely possible to believe a lie.



Sure I'll post it later when I get the info. It's not because you are not aware of it that it doesn't exist. Plenty of anthropologists are studying this possibility.

P.S.: these myths are creation myth so of course they are 100% allegorical. No man was alive when the universe was created.


OHHHH so it is all creation myths that can be traced back to two sources? That makes a bit more sense than saying that ALL myths can be traced back to two sources. Still do provide a source though.


Yet they are very interesting because they show how most different cultures have common roots


Like I said, I have nothing against studying the history of religion, but studying religion for belief purposes is flawed. One must understand that those stories ARE myths and fiction. There may be grains of truth in there, but the stories certainly didn't happen as written.


I agree, it's hard. The bible is a book full of old myths. Yet it doesn't mean these myths (besides the creation myth, creation myths are different things) cannot be inspired by real events dramatized over time.


Actually, that is kind of what I believe for the entire bible (jesus story and all), but the problem is that we are looking what we would call historical fiction today and trying to piece together the REAL parts of history from them. When I do it, I start by discarding all supernatural claims as they cannot be true without outside help. Until evidence of that outside help is produced, there is no point entertaining those ideas as true.



posted on Feb, 10 2015 @ 11:52 AM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t
Yes, but that only matters to people who lived on the coast. People inland probably didn't notice a thing, except maybe a shorter trip to the shore.


Google Doggerland, we are talking about huge continental mass disappearing. Surely that would mark the minds of people back then.

Also people then weren't sedentary. They knew vast amount of land.

You can't see this and honestly call it nothing more than "a shorter trip to the shore":




originally posted by: Krazysh0t
Believing in something doesn't mean it is real. It is entirely possible to believe a lie.


There is a huge spectrum of possibilities between a truth and a lie. Studying history will show you that it's almost impossible to know the factual truth regarding past events. Every account is at least biased and sometimes exaggerated or downright deformed.

It's not because a story isn't "true" that it's a lie. The bible is considered a spiritual book by religious people, whether it's factual or not doesn't matter that much if what interests you is the spiritual aspect.



originally posted by: Krazysh0t
Actually, that is kind of what I believe for the entire bible (jesus story and all), but the problem is that we are looking what we would call historical fiction today and trying to piece together the REAL parts of history from them. When I do it, I start by discarding all supernatural claims as they cannot be true without outside help. Until evidence of that outside help is produced, there is no point entertaining those ideas as true.


That's what I'm doing too, I think we agree on most things. To me the bible is the mythos of the Jewish people and the story of a Jewish mystics maybe dramatized with passages from older myths.

I dig it for spiritual reasons and because it's a great historical source if taken in context.

The problem is always with fundies when they consider the Bible to be analyzed as "the word of god" and without putting it back in context, but honestly fundies represent a minority.

Even the Church fathers recognized that Genesis was the Jewish creation myth. Not a description of physical events.
edit on 10-2-2015 by Develo because: (no reason given)

edit on 10-2-2015 by Develo because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 10 2015 @ 12:50 PM
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originally posted by: Develo
Google Doggerland, we are talking about huge continental mass disappearing. Surely that would mark the minds of people back then.


I know what Doggerland is. It still isn't the WHOLE world. Would people in South America know about Doggerlan? No.


Also people then weren't sedentary. They knew vast amount of land.


I didn't say they were.


There is a huge spectrum of possibilities between a truth and a lie. Studying history will show you that it's almost impossible to know the factual truth regarding past events. Every account is at least biased and sometimes exaggerated or downright deformed.

It's not because a story isn't "true" that it's a lie. The bible is considered a spiritual book by religious people, whether it's factual or not doesn't matter that much if what interests you is the spiritual aspect.


So how do you know that spiritual aspect is correct? What do you have to compare it against? Are you somehow opposed to quantifying the spiritual?


That's what I'm doing too, I think we agree on most things. To me the bible is the mythos of the Jewish people and the story of a Jewish mystics maybe dramatized with passages from older myths.

I dig it for spiritual reasons and because it's a great historical source if taken in context.

The problem is always with fundies when they consider the Bible to be analyzed as "the word of god" and without putting it back in context, but honestly fundies represent a minority.


But even you have to have some belief in SOME of the supernatural claims in the bible to be a Christian. If you believe that Jesus was a small time cult leader whose name got hyped to godhood, then there is no point in calling yourself a Christian since Jesus wouldn't be a path towards salvation. He'd be just another preacher.


Even the Church fathers recognized that Genesis was the Jewish creation myth. Not a description of physical events.


Oh I'm aware that the Christian fundamentalism we see today is a rather recent development, but keep in mind that when these myths were first written down they were believed to be the truth.



posted on Feb, 10 2015 @ 01:36 PM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t
But even you have to have some belief in SOME of the supernatural claims in the bible to be a Christian. If you believe that Jesus was a small time cult leader whose name got hyped to godhood, then there is no point in calling yourself a Christian since Jesus wouldn't be a path towards salvation. He'd be just another preacher.


What makes you think I call myself a Christian?

Also there is no need to believe in the supernatural claims of the Bible to study it's hidden spiritual teachings.

Spiritual things take place inside the individual. It's a transformative process. It has nothing to do with the exoteric stories in the Bible. If people get stuck at the exoteric level, it's not my problem. It's where the separation is made between those who truly want to understand the message of the Bible, and those who simply read it out of tradition or social pressure.


originally posted by: Krazysh0t
Oh I'm aware that the Christian fundamentalism we see today is a rather recent development, but keep in mind that when these myths were first written down they were believed to be the truth.


That's a gross mistake. Just like fairy tales actually contain hidden teachings yet people know very well they are fiction, a great majority of myths are nothing but a vehicle to transmit and teach lessons. People wrote them for that purpose and knew it very well.

It's part of a long tradition of mystery cults and an even older tradition of storytelling as an education method, before writing existed. And it's for that reason that we can still find these hidden teachings today.

Again, if some gullible people think myths aren't myths, it's because they are gullible, not because the writer was.
edit on 10-2-2015 by Develo because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 10 2015 @ 01:46 PM
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originally posted by: Develo
What makes you think I call myself a Christian?


I guess I was just assuming. Are you not?


Also there is no need to believe in the supernatural claims of the Bible to study it's hidden spiritual teachings.

Spiritual things take place inside the individual. It's a transformative process. It has nothing to do with the exoteric stories in the Bible. If people get stuck at the exoteric level, it's not my problem. It's where the separation is made between those who truly want to understand the message of the Bible, and those who simply read it out of tradition or social pressure.


I dunno. The only thing I got out of it was the Golden Rule. Other than that, I see little use for it outside of studying it like ancient mythology to understand what beliefs go into the religion.


That's a gross mistake. Just like fairy tales actually contain hidden teachings yet people know very well they are fiction, a great majority of myths are nothing but a vehicle to transmit and teach lessons. People wrote them for that purpose and knew it very well.


People have ALWAYS been superstitious. While I won't discount the idea that people distrustful of religion have always existed, I think it is naive to think that the majority of the people reading these stories as well as writing them didn't truly believe they were the truth.


It's part of a long tradition of mystery cults and an even older tradition of storytelling as an education method, before writing existed. And it's for that reason that we can still find these hidden teachings today.

Again, if some gullible people think myths aren't myths, it's because they are gullible, not because the writer was.


But see the writer of these myths was just writing down the stories they've heard their whole lives. There is nothing to suggest that they too didn't believe them as well. It's not like these stories are coming directly from their imaginations. You said it yourself that they were passed down orally for generations. So by the time that writing came along to record them, the people writing them would not have the slightest idea where those stories came from and if they were true or not.



posted on Feb, 10 2015 @ 02:05 PM
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a reply to: Develo


Again, if some gullible people think myths aren't myths, it's because they are gullible, not because the writer was.

I get what you're saying.

Yes - gullible people DO think that what they read is 'truth', when it is clearly a myth. Aesop's fables are a brilliant example. Grimm's fairy tales.

ANYONE who has studied literature knows that there are only a few 'plots' in all of writing to choose from (as far as fiction/mythology goes). Literature (in which category I include the Bible, Torah, Qu'ran, etc as well a Grimm's, Harry Potter, Ulysses, The Ovid, and Shakespeare) carries certain messages.

Not everyone is bright enough to get "The Moral of the Story". They prefer to think it is journalism, when it is clearly not.



posted on Feb, 10 2015 @ 02:20 PM
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a reply to: Krazysh0t


So by the time that writing came along to record them, the people writing them would not have the slightest idea where those stories came from and if they were true or not.

I think they would. They are merely recording the 'oral traditions' of the culture.

Having studied anthropology, I'm fairly certain that the elders who told these tales around campfires or whatever to their tribes knew that what they were telling were fables: fiction, but based on spiritual understandings.....
Little kids often take those stories as 'fact' (like Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy) - and if they don't mature, they might think that forever. Not every person in a full-grown body is an 'adult'.


I have on my bookshelf -
American Indian Myths and Legends,
World Mythology,
The Ancient and Shining Ones,
Celtic Myths - Celtic Legends,
The Bible,
Chinese Fairy Tales,
Divine Magic,
The Evolution of God,
Everyday Zen,
Animals as Teachers and Healers,
The Tibetan Book of the Dead,
The Sayings of Confucius,
Masked Gods,
The New American Spirituality,
Paganism Today,
Celtic Wisdom,
Deconverted
,
a whole BUNCH of books about King Arthur (probably a dozen different versions and renditions and ideas)
and many others.

On another shelf in the other room I have several more including Dante, Karen Armstrong, Raymond Moody, Chris Carter, Dr Seuss,
yada yada yada

EVERY culture has their myths.
I think most open-minded, intelligent people can - IF THEY HAVE HAD AN EDUCATION BASED IN LIBERAL ARTS & HUMANITES as well as Reading, Writing, Rithmatic, Science, etc. - tell the difference. If I were to meet a home-schooled kid of 18 who thought the Bible was "true" and had never even HEARD about other cultures' myths, I would be very very concerned indeed.

(I know you know this, KrazyShot - just writing because your post inspired me and I started rambling - but, I'm leaving it here
).
edit on 2/10/2015 by BuzzyWigs because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 10 2015 @ 02:55 PM
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a reply to: BuzzyWigs

That may have been the case for early pagan cultures, but as we started moving into cities suddenly the idea of God-Kings came about. It became a requirement to believe that your king was a god personified, and I'm sure that these particular god-kings probably believed their own bs. Though it is tough to say who believed what.

However, I am willing to bet there are two different mythology tales being told here. The embellished "true" history myths and the allegory to teach a lesson myths. The problem is that over the ages we've lost the ability to tell which ones are which.



posted on Feb, 10 2015 @ 03:42 PM
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a reply to: shauny

Well explained sir - kuodos to your wisdom!

As I am new to this clan of ATS..I leave only my signature as a bookmark to further investigate the findings of all individuals
discoveries and personal quest's.

Be well all.
E.NOCH



posted on Feb, 10 2015 @ 04:48 PM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t

However, I am willing to bet there are two different mythology tales being told here. The embellished "true" history myths and the allegory to teach a lesson myths. The problem is that over the ages we've lost the ability to tell which ones are which.


That's exactly why the Holy Bible has stood the test of time. It combines just enough verifiable history with the allegorical tales to convince impressionable people that everything contained within is valid.

It should be firmly in the category of "Fictional Alternate History/Mythology" just like Homer's Iliad and The Odyssey but the difference is that no one is building massive buildings to tell people how factually accurate Homer's stories are.
edit on 2/10/2015 by Answer because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 10 2015 @ 04:49 PM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t
I guess I was just assuming. Are you not?


Such a label is too constraining.




originally posted by: Krazysh0t
I dunno. The only thing I got out of it was the Golden Rule. Other than that, I see little use for it outside of studying it like ancient mythology to understand what beliefs go into the religion.


Like I said. Transformative process. The basis of all spiritual traditions. There is the golden rule as a basic philosophy yes, then there is all the rest.


originally posted by: Krazysh0t
People have ALWAYS been superstitious. While I won't discount the idea that people distrustful of religion have always existed, I think it is naive to think that the majority of the people reading these stories as well as writing them didn't truly believe they were the truth.


The hidden truth was usually only unveiled to a few, only after being initiated into the mysteries. It's on purpose that the message isn't self-evident and hidden beneath a mythical story.


originally posted by: Krazysh0t
But see the writer of these myths was just writing down the stories they've heard their whole lives. There is nothing to suggest that they too didn't believe them as well. It's not like these stories are coming directly from their imaginations. You said it yourself that they were passed down orally for generations. So by the time that writing came along to record them, the people writing them would not have the slightest idea where those stories came from and if they were true or not.


Your assumptions. If they had no idea, the original hidden meaning would most likely be lost as the writer would focus more on insignificant details as well as getting the symbols wrong. Most of the time it's not the case.

For example there is a chance that Homer isn't a single person, but an anonymous collective of initiates into the mysteries.





If you truly want to understand these texts you have to put yourself in the shoes of someone from that time. A time were people, far from being more stupid than today, were actually very bright, with less time spent in distraction and more time contemplating the mystery of existence. A time where people knew they descended from very long and very old traditions and cultures, millenias old.

A time where the knowledge of plants could make a difference between life and death, where knowledge of astronomy could help feed a whole village, where knowledge of mathematics could make you erect monuments like never seen before.

To the man of that time, there was no difference between the divine and the universe. And thus there was no separation between the sacred and the scientific. In order to master the creation, you had to humbly listen to the teachings of the ancients because there were no libraries nor internet. In order to speak the language of the myths, you had to master the symbolic alphabet.

Knowledge was incredibly valuable, and scholars and priests were one and the same thing. Glorifying the divine, knowing the secrets of the universe.

That's why they were the keepers of the myths; to keep the knowledge of when to sow, of how to build, of how life and the universe work. The myths were their way to keep the knowledge alive in the minds of all, and yet only dormant if you did not have the key to unlock it, if you weren't deem to be worthy of the power of knowledge. Because who has knowledge has power. It's not a gift people were giving lightly back then. You had to deserve it.

Then writing was created and it changed a lot of things. At first it was still reserved to a priest caste, but later it allowed for knowledge to be stored and disseminated through the world and for all. The myths became much less useful, and as cities grew, religions bevame more and more tools of social engineering. But their mythical and spiritual roots are still very present and alive.


If you can understand that and imagine you were a man living in a certain place, context and period, then you can unlock the mysteries of the myths, of all myths from all cultures and all times.
edit on 10-2-2015 by Develo because: (no reason given)

edit on 10-2-2015 by Develo because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 10 2015 @ 06:10 PM
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a reply to: Krazysh0t


It became a requirement to believe that your king was a god personified, and I'm sure that these particular god-kings probably believed their own bs. Though it is tough to say who believed what.

Yes, it did become a requirement to SAY that your king was a god personified. That, to me, just indicates that those in power thought, "hey! Wait a tick! --- if they believe THIS stuff (these legends), then why wouldn't they believe that WE are gods?"

Taking advantage of the uneducated masses' ignorance. Twisting fables and legends into 'laws' and 'dictums'. When they were not. They ARE not. Yet - if you threaten someone often enough with a sufficiently dastardly plan to kill them (here or in the afterlife), they will eventually say, "yeah, okay. Fine. Whatever." Just like little kids.

Except it is ADULTS ALSO that were/are getting 'punished' and 'killed' for saying that the Emperor has no clothes.



Unfortunately, a LOT of them took (take) the threats seriously - even today.



posted on Feb, 10 2015 @ 06:45 PM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: undo

This is all pseudo-science since no such tech like this actually exists. It is all theoretical. And if WE haven't invented it yet, the ancients sure as crap didn't invent it. Saying that they did is an assumption without evidence.


what tech doesn't exist? the black box computer made from photosensitive algae was created at least 2 decades ago. using dna for storing data is already happening (i mean your dna is full of stored data)

watch this egyptian discuss the serapeum of egypt.




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