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France: Friend or Foe?

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posted on Dec, 15 2004 @ 09:30 AM
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I have been scouring the net recently in an attempt to answer this question. So far, to me all indications say France has switched sides, and it has been largely precipitated by the US war in Iraq, with which France has clearly disagreed.

France's recent ties with China are probably the single most concerning
thing:

- France has been supplying weapons to China
www.newsmax.com...

- France has conducted military exercises with China, in what are described as China's largest military drills ever with a foreign power.
www.chinadaily.com.cn...

- France and China signed billions of dollars' worth of trade contracts
www.chinadaily.com.cn...

- France and Germany have been the most vocal supporters of lifting the EU's arms embargo on China.
www.channelnewsasia.com...

Which leads me to the next point, and that is- with France switching sides, there is a balance of veto power shift at the UN Security Council. The US/UK and Russia/China/France. This could either get better or worse depending on proposed new reforms at UNSC.

So, if anyone would like to argue the point, and insist that France is still our friend in any way, I am all ears. IMO France has become an enemy. Smelly, hairy, cowardly ones, at that. Good riddance. Who's next? the UK? Germany?




posted on Dec, 15 2004 @ 09:35 AM
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Friend.
People are getting manipulated into hating other people, for the benefit of the elite ruling class, i.e. the Bush administration and the neo-cons who control them.



posted on Dec, 15 2004 @ 09:41 AM
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Which is fine by me. Now we won't ever have to come to their rescue again; and you know that they will need rescueing some time in the future.

I got a great deal on a rifle, the ad read: "REAL French military rifle for sale! Never fired and only dropped once!"



posted on Dec, 15 2004 @ 09:43 AM
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Well curme, while I don't doubt you one bit, and I don't agree with the foreign mess that the Bush administration has gotten us into, I think it is important at least to recognize who our official friends and foes are.



posted on Dec, 15 2004 @ 09:56 AM
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whilst i will not get conned into slagging off the french i will say that i feel france is doing exactly what the US does: serving its own interests

i will also say that we are seeing interesring divisions in important parts of the world. allow me to demonstrate. lets say there are two teams - red (china/"old europe") and blue (US/"new europe"). spot the regional disputes!

Red - France, Germany, Russia, China, North Korea, Pakistan
Blue - USA, UK, Spain, Poland, Taiwan, Japan, India

so maybe yes, you could consider france an enemy. I dont, however, though i will admit some of their policies, like on Nato, get on my nerves



posted on Dec, 15 2004 @ 09:56 AM
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Welcome to the truth that others of us have known for a very long time.

Did you know that whilst the United Kingdom was engaged in the Falklands Conflict, France was actively selling Exocet anti-ship missiles to Argentina? We were losing a ship a day, and the French Govt (supposedly our allies) were selling the missiles which were killing our sailors ! In the end MI6 had to arrange to covertly outbid the Argentines to stop the flow of the missiles and thus ensure the success of the campaign.

"Thanks very much for liberating us and all but hey, business is business"




posted on Dec, 15 2004 @ 10:06 AM
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I would consider France still a friend. The ties between America and Europe are too strong for a Western European nation to be considered an 'enemy' at this stage in history. What France is doing, is no different that what any country does: looking out for their own interests. By participating in a military excercize with China is really no big deal. Maybe they were probing Chinese tactics/army to determine how to maintain relations with China in the future?

France may have a general contempt for anything not French, but we Americans have that same contempt for everyone not American.



posted on Dec, 15 2004 @ 10:17 AM
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France = Friend

You can moan all day about how bent Chirac is, or about the French governments self serving politics, but at the end of the day, all governments act in their own interests.
More importantly than this, the French people are your friends, and are as good a people as any nation's. I know this because I know dozens of French people and their opinions.
Try not to judge a country on its leaders because in this case it would be a highly erroneous judgement.

[edit on 15-12-2004 by Paul]



posted on Dec, 15 2004 @ 12:31 PM
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Ok, interesting replies. I realize that there needs to be a clear distinction between governments and common people. Deep down, in the common people, I think most would consider each other friends. And that goes for most nations, as well. But I'm not talking common people here, I'm talking politics and governments.

And trying to figure out politically speaking who's side they are on. In that regard, sorry- I still maintain.



posted on Dec, 15 2004 @ 06:33 PM
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I wouldn't be so quick to say that the French are our friends, They hate our government and they hate our people, according to a recent AP-IPSOS poll:


AP polls: Many Europeans cool toward Americans as well as Bush re-election

By Will Lester
ASSOCIATED PRESS
6:10 p.m. December 13, 2004

WASHINGTON International resentment of the Bush administration has spilled over to include bad feelings for the American people, too at least in three European countries that opposed U.S. policies in Iraq.

People in France, Germany and Spain are more likely to have an unfavorable than favorable view of Americans, Associated Press polling found.
Just over half in France and Germany said they viewed Americans unfavorably. Almost half in Spain felt that way, while a third of Spaniards viewed Americans favorably.

www.signonsandiego.com...

Similar reports on FOX News, but I wouldn't want to cite a "biased" source.





posted on Dec, 15 2004 @ 06:41 PM
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...I suspect theres also many previous American 'allies' who are now thinking "America...friend or foe". Right now I could swing either way on it...


Nox

posted on Dec, 15 2004 @ 08:14 PM
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Originally posted by nathraq
I would consider France still a friend. The ties between America and Europe are too strong for a Western European nation to be considered an 'enemy' at this stage in history.

America's relations with Europe is overrated.

Our ties with Europe are historic at best.

Asian countries are taking over as America's new posse.

EDIT: What am I saying? Asian countries are already America's new posse.

[edit on 15-12-2004 by Nox]



posted on Dec, 15 2004 @ 08:35 PM
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I'd say neither. Americans are deeply abstracted from the concept of neutrality. The french look out for their own interests, period.

Also, about the whining of Americans about how the French hate them...well, so do I. I'm canadian. In fact a lot of people aren't too thrilled with America- including a bunch of other americans. It's not much of a measuring point, if you ask me.

Cope with it. You hate the French. Think they're going to be all happy with that?



posted on Dec, 15 2004 @ 08:42 PM
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France is still currently on the friend side of the fence, but it will only stay that way if America retracts its hegemonial claws.

With all the bombast emanating from the lips of Bush and his PNAC pals for the first half of 2003, as well as with their belligerence toward France, Russia and Germany, it became evident to me that these countries along with China, were not so willing to be duped that they would not form their own alliances in the event Bush got too big for his britches. The last thing either of those four countries would want would be to caught by surprise with a very combatative and authoritarian superpower in their backyards and placed there by their own assistance, whch then decides European nations are the next axis of evil, and oh so easy to attack.

It was obvious last year that these four countries recognized this, and quickly formed alliances among themselves. All of those meeting between them weren't to discuss the ski conditions in the Alps. And I can't say I blame them, for as much as Americans would never want to think of their country as being an evil empire, the Russians, Germans, French and Chinese remember full well what it is like to not pay attention to the signs of a nation planning world domination.



posted on Dec, 15 2004 @ 08:46 PM
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Its a loaded question. This isn't the Cold War era anymore. The world isn't divided in two camps, so the "friend or foe" question doesn't really apply. Beside, this is based on the assumption that China is the USA's nemesis. Newsflash: China is the fastest growing economy in the World, EVERYBODY wants to make business with them in hope of reaping the rewards in the future.

[edit on 15/12/2004 by Nikosmo]



posted on Dec, 15 2004 @ 08:48 PM
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Friend or foe? Black or white?

Chirac's UMP monkeys are chasing France's economic interests just like the gang in Washington is doing for the States.

Its true these intrests collided over Iraq. Does this mean they are a "foe"? Are you serious? Does them being a traitorous foe, for doing their government trying to do its best for its people, merit an invasion?

I'm glad the diplomats in Paris see the grey area. That's reality: the US and France are on officially on very good terms. Bush is a jerk to Chirac, who in turn criticizes Bush. But that is meaningless next to the economic interest the US has in keeping on good terms with EU.



posted on Dec, 15 2004 @ 09:06 PM
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I don't mind the French, sure they are arrogant and full of themselves but arnt all countries when it comes to national pride etc?
I cant forgive them over the stab in the back when we were at War with Argentina but i suppose thats water under the bridge.
What i don't like is the way Germany and France are partnering up to be the big players in Europe and trying to squeeze us (UK) out, that may be a simplified view but thats how it seems to me anyhow.
As for hating the US, well the French have more reason to hate us seeing how we kicked their collective behinds up and down Europe for centuries but they got over it and I'm sure they will get over this thing they have for the US. In a hundred years none of this will matter.



posted on Dec, 16 2004 @ 06:45 AM
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What i don't like is the way Germany and France are partnering up to be the big players in Europe and trying to squeeze us (UK) out, that may be a simplified view but thats how it seems to me anyhow.


And the Germans complain about the UK and France ganging up on them and the French complain about the UK and Germany getting too cosy.

All three countries now get on very well with each other overall, but on specific topics (such as the war in Iraq) the allegences differ. in some things the UK and Germany agree (eg French high tariffs on Imported goods) and some the UK and France agree (eg common EU defence force).

[edit on 16-12-2004 by paperplane_uk]



posted on Dec, 16 2004 @ 08:35 AM
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Originally posted by Argus
Welcome to the truth that others of us have known for a very long time.

Did you know that whilst the United Kingdom was engaged in the Falklands Conflict, France was actively selling Exocet anti-ship missiles to Argentina? We were losing a ship a day, and the French Govt (supposedly our allies) were selling the missiles which were killing our sailors ! In the end MI6 had to arrange to covertly outbid the Argentines to stop the flow of the missiles and thus ensure the success of the campaign.




Well, the US does the same everyday so, we can't condemn them on this. We are the ones who gave Saddam his weapons...so, if he was really related to al-quaida, we can say that we helped them too!!



posted on Dec, 17 2004 @ 02:46 AM
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France as Foe goes further back than Iraq or the last Gulf War. Its been in the works for a while.

I have to laugh at Deus Ex. You basically epitomized why Americans feel Canadians are also becoming less friend.




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