Why is Charlie Hebdo OK, but not Dieudonné ?

a reply to: Strawberry88

Right Wing nutter Jean-Marie Le Pen is the Godfather to his child...

They're more than friends, they are family!




Have a look at his history, he clearly started out as a left winger anti-Zionist... I haven't denied that...
As the years have gone by he has gone to the opposite end of the spectrum... That's equally undeniable.


He gave an award to a Holocaust denier, and mocked the Holocaust with the same denier in another sketch...

Recently he had political partners who were Holocaust deniers...


You may not think that is anti-Semitic intent... I do.



People shouldn't be mocking slavery either...
& surely you don't think 2 wrongs make a right?

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
a reply to: Strawberry88

Right Wing nutter Jean-Marie Le Pen is the Godfather to his child...

They're more than friends, they are family!




Have a look at his history, he clearly started out as a left winger anti-Zionist... I haven't denied that...
As the years have gone by he has gone to the opposite end of the spectrum... That's equally undeniable.


He gave an award to a Holocaust denier, and mocked the Holocaust with the same denier in another sketch...

Recently he had political partners who were Holocaust deniers...


You may not think that is anti-Semitic intent... I do.



People shouldn't be mocking slavery either...
& surely you don't think 2 wrongs make a right?

I don't see a wrong in either.

Both are historical events that are PAST us and shouldn't be abused for any reason what so ever, except, one group is allowed to still do so, completely out of proportion when you look at reality, hence me making the comparison.


He did one sketch on the holocaust? How does that compare to the years of publishing Charlie did, exactly? Why is a publishing company allowed more offensive free speech rights than a single measely individual?

Maybe you should ask the question: Why do they fear this single man?


Maybe because he's trying to pull off some masks? Don't want too many anti-establishment people finding out what a zionist is you know :/



What is your point though? Why should he not be allowed to mock zionism, heck even judaism? Hate speech is not the same as making fun of a prisoner camp (with MANY different people), I'm afraid.



Would Mr. Dieudonné then also go to prison if he were to make fun of gays?

You know, the nazis put away people for being gay too, right? Gays that were not even jewish?

Maybe we should even give gay people their own country, I mean it's 50 years late, but I heard Saudi-Arabia is a lovely place for gays this kind of year...

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

This Op is about the hypocrisy of the French government logic.

Please understand.... I'm not here to convince you about what Dieudonné stands for .

I know he is NOT an anti Semite but rather a an anti Zionist.

Let's just assume you are right and he was what you accuse him to be... + the fact that Charlie Hebdo is obviously islamophobe( maybe you'll deny that as well??)
-- you do understand there's a double standard here right ?
Charlie Hebdo is allowed and encouraged to provoke, which I understand should be protected as a right of freedom of speech, but why not Dieudonné ?????

Obviously two wrongs don't make a right. But do you understand the reasoning behind this Op right ? Serious question here.

If one is allowed, why not the other ?
Is it because we're not allowed to do it with the chosen people but we can do it to Muslims ???
Another serious question here

Have you watched the video Charlie?

When can you spit on a Greek woman?

When her moustache is on fire



How do you recognize an African dumpster?

There's a guy living in it



African radiostation?

There's an antenna on the dumpster



When can you punch a midget?

When he says your wife's hair smells nice



Why do German shower-heads have 11 holes in them?

Jews only have 10 fingers


OHH THATS RACIST, I deserve to be imprisoned because clearly I am anti-Semitic...


You know what, I even think the first joke is more offensive, knowing some Greek women and their f***ed up genetics, I think it's a shame to mock women who can't even help the way they look and STILL have to deal with what THEIR race is a bit known for, even if it is in jest.

Yeah, I know women with mustaches and society is not always as nice to them.

Point here?

I can laugh at all those jokes, but if Mr. Dieudonné would tell me ONE of those, he would risk going to jail.




And you think it's because of the KIND of humor? If only... He's exposing a word that needn't see that much daylight in these times if you ask me, and he's being silenced for it.



They banned his shows multiple times in the past, but I'm sure you'll argue that's all because he's a racist holocaust denier, right? It's not like there's bigger scum walking around in the entertainment industry or anything like that :S :S :S

a reply to: samsamm9


Just wanted to add that the reason Dieudonné mocks the holocaust is, again, for anti-zionist reasons.



It is so painfully obvious to anyone who does a fair attempt at being realistic, that the holocaust was and still is being exploited as a historical event to further the interests of a certain group of people, where even a part of that group of people was likely (in)directly involved in the leading up to said event.


But he's not allowed to say that either, it's hate speech! You can't even freaking say that zionists and jews are a different group, you can't say that zionists USED judaism despite the harmful effects on the religion and it's people.


He's not allowed to say that stuff, so he mocks the holocaust because when you see it like THAT, it is one big joke being played on humanity.


The wolf in sheep's clothing is still wearing the goddamn disguise and we can't pull it off because he'll put a couple of real sheep in front of him to blaaat innocence and discrimination

a reply to: samsamm9

I rarely get the chance to watch videos on ATS...
But I subscribe and comment to threads with videos I will watch as soon as I get the chance.



I do understand & I gave you your first S&F for this thread before I responded...

Because I agree highly that it's a double standard.



My only point is, rather than me say they should both get away with it...
The point of my original post was that neither should be acceptable.




He definitely wasn't an anti-Semite initially, but a lot of his recent activity goes against that.


Here is a quote from him...

"Antisemite? I'm not of that opinion...

I'm not saying I'd never be one... I leave myself open to that possibility, but for the moment, no...

I don't have to choose between the Jews and the Nazis."

Take from that what you will.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

That quote says nothing, honestly...

Maybe he simply realizes that this historical event nor the people involved back then have ANYTHING to do with him and he can just be an observer?


An observer who observed, like many people, that this event was blatantly manipulated and misused by a certain group of people he DOES have a problem against.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

Well I heard it when he said that comment, and I thought it was pretty hilarious and genius, nothing less.

Again, another out of context comment. He said it, it's true but the reasoning behind why he said that and pure genius.

Anyhow.... I guess we can't agree on everything.

Peace ( Salam ) ( Shalom ) brother Charlie

originally posted by: theultimatebelgianjoke
a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

Please realise that the only country in the world that still consider today that the Jews should be wearing some sort of yellow star is Israel.
That makes them more recognizable, it's handy when whinning.
Did you ever saw gipsies gathering in front of the Brandenburg gate in Berlin to get new tires for their caravans because the ancestors got the same fate ?

Have a star. They love to whine don't they...

originally posted by: Strawberry88
a reply to: samsamm9


Just wanted to add that the reason Dieudonné mocks the holocaust is, again, for anti-zionist reasons.



It is so painfully obvious to anyone who does a fair attempt at being realistic, that the holocaust was and still is being exploited as a historical event to further the interests of a certain group of people, where even a part of that group of people was likely (in)directly involved in the leading up to said event.


But he's not allowed to say that either, it's hate speech! You can't even freaking say that zionists and jews are a different group, you can't say that zionists USED judaism despite the harmful effects on the religion and it's people.


He's not allowed to say that stuff, so he mocks the holocaust because when you see it like THAT, it is one big joke being played on humanity.


The wolf in sheep's clothing is still wearing the goddamn disguise and we can't pull it off because he'll put a couple of real sheep in front of him to blaaat innocence and discrimination

I'm not sure why this isn't obvious to common reasoning.

originally posted by: TheLaughingGod
a reply to: Bluesma

Rule 1 of Sweden, Sweden is always worse in every way. The Nordic and Middle Eastern culture is a major clash, they find themselves on the opposite sides of a spectrum. The major difference is in the orientation of the control locus, Middle Easterners are heavily leaning on the side of an externalized control locus, the opposite is true in Scandinavia with an internalized one.

Is their sense of agency largely influenced by the surrounding external world. If there's a problem where does it most likely originate? This can be very congrous with a victim mentality which left leaning politics unashamedly exploits and nurture.

Where I live people cater in obeisance to increasingly hostile segments of society that do not want to be a part of the country at all.

Though I am in France, I understand what you are saying and agree with it. This is something I have tried to describe in other threads, about the culture clash we are facing. Even though, here in the South of France, there is more of a marked focus on exterior authority than in Sweden, on a continuum, they are more self disciplined than the arabs.

One of my points is that this is not primarily religious in nature- because we have people who are not Muslim, some are even Christian, born here as second generation immigrants, and they have that same foot dragging dependance upon exterior authority. What I have heard referred to as the "mediterrean nature", which impedes their success in the professional world- which they are quick to blame on racism. But that play upon the french collective guilt concerning WW2, and the Vichy regime.

It's been a long time that I have described on this site the dire state of things here. It was the problems with this population that pushed us to move from the city, to a rural area in the mountains. I am not insensitive to the problem!

But on the other hand, There is some practical concerns on what and how something can be done.

I mean the demographic changes themselves will be enough to guarantee a total implosion of indigenous culture and to perpetually fundamentally change the whole identity of the country. I never remember signing off on committing cultural suicide in face of an alien desert culture that does nothing to respect us as a people.

In my case, I am not french, so I find myself feeling somewhat detached as an observer here. This same sentiment can be found by the native french here too. But I can see ways they are partly responsible for this situation too, that they turn a blind eye to. The relevance, in discussing possible solutions, is that if these ways are ignored, the solutions risk failing, because a large factor in the problem was not taking into account and dealt with.

The question of cultural suicide, I don't feel as strongly about- obviously because it is not my culture. But from my point of view, cultures evolve and change all the time, and most often as result of influence of other cultures, immigration and conquest. The situation here is not sourced in new immigrants- it is primarily with second and third generation immigrants! They were born here, they have often never seen the lands of their parents or grandparents... who were often invited here in the past in order to increase the labor market after great loss of life in the wars.
The french have a complicated karmic-like relationship with the algerians, who they had colonized for a very long time, and who adapted to their culture so much that when the french pulled out, they followed.

The relationship is somewhat comparable to that of the blacks in america a few decades ago, whose sources were in slavery. How realistic would it have been, to consider in the sixties, just gathering up all the blacks and sending them to Africa????

I think conquest has it's consequences, that reach far into the future. You can't go over and penetrate another culture (changing it drastically) and expect there will never be a flowback of them also, penetrating your own culture and changing it.

And no one ever actually tackles the issue at all, in media. I never hear a sensible rebuttal, the so called "debate" comes down to ad hominem attacks, racist in particular, common easily swallowable feel good mantras.

I do not assume to speak for Sweden, but I find the subject IS being tackled in the media here. Some parts of it, as I say, are not being acknowledged though. LIke the way laxism is breeding racism (the more the authorities keep their hands off policy towards the arabs, the more crap they pull, and the more the anger of the french people is mounting), the hypocrisy (as pointed out in this thread), and the cultural clash not being sourced in religion, but ultimately leading to it. Not finding a responsive exterior authority in France, they end up looking for it in these extremist groups, or in criminal gangs.

From where I stand, I am watchign a situation which reminds me of a parent with kids that are genetically theirs, and one step child, who is afraid of disciplining the step child for fear of breaking the relationship, and the child is reaching adolescence, trying to provoke limits to fall upon them, and none are forthcoming. So they risk falling into much less trustworthy hands for that experience of limits and authority.

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
a reply to: NOTurTypical

Phobia;
an extreme or irrational fear of or aversion to something.
"she suffered from a phobia about birds"
synonyms: abnormal fear, irrational fear, obsessive fear, fear, dread, horror, terror, dislike, hatred, loathing, detestation, distaste, aversion, antipathy, revulsion, repulsion; More

People like you are not as smart as you think...

Educate yourself before you try to educate others!!!

"Aversion" means a strong dislike. I have a strong dislike of water chestnuts, can't say I have a "phobia" of them. A phobia is a mental health term, so the implication here is that the "aversion" must make the person IRRATIONAL with fear.

Hello McFly. lol

originally posted by: TheLaughingGod
a reply to: TheTengriist

No, no, no. Jews and muslims don't act alike, I don't know of any Jewish ghetto enclaves where I'd be attacked for being white.
Jewish youngsters in the West don't stone police and ambulance. Jewish youth do not riot and burn up and destroy hundreds of cars while the authorities tacitly watch without interfering.

Are you kidding me? Jews can be just as extremist as Muslims. I suggest you do a Youtube search for people having rocks thrown at them girls being spat on and man handled in the more devout areas of Jerusalem. They are disgusting.

So, you are wrong. 100% wrong.

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
a reply to: Strawberry88

Right Wing nutter Jean-Marie Le Pen is the Godfather to his child...

They're more than friends, they are family!

It's really hard to prove a point clearly in this debate.

Are you suggesting Dieudonné is an Antisemite because he took Le Pen as the Godfather of his child ?
OR
Are you suggesting Le Pen is not really that racist since he agreed to be the Godfather of a black boy ?

Don't worry, I know what for a guy Le Pen really is. Don't forget he managed to reach the second round of Presidential election against Chirac. And I noticed you have a good understanding of the jewish particularism.
Let's agree that Dieudonné is borderline ... not antisemite.

Do you often hear that the Jews are victims of racism ? No . They are victims of antisemitism.
Why must there be some special jewish-racism ? You may have walked along a lot of people without noticing they are Jews because unlike black or asians, many Jews don't fit in any particular stereotype.

So the problem IMO is the following : you would have no problem laughing at someone who walks down the street with a clown nose, but you can't do that if someone chose the yellow star over the red nose.
As I told you already :

The respect of dead people implies IMO to let them in their grave and not instrumentalize them for the defence of an idealogy that is, pretty much the same as the one that caused their death.
If some are no shy of doing this, there is nothing wrong when you mock them for that.

As if making fun of the nazi camps must always be outrageous.

a reply to: theultimatebelgianjoke

No I'm not suggesting he is an anti-Semite because of his relationship with Le Pen, that is more a query into "the company you keep"...


Racism is a term that implies superiority over the victim...
Where as anti-Semitism is more of a hatred of Jews just because...

Arabs are also Semitic people, but the term anti-Semitism was a term coined by Germans defined as Jew Hatred...




Aside from that, personally I think jokes about the Holocaust will always be disgusting, only there for shock value.

The problem just do not revolve around the figure of Dieudonné.
The FN lead by LePen's daughter won the last european elections in France ...



Hopefully Dieudonné is a comedian, he doesn't use weapons ... Like the Charlie boys.

I must now give full credit to Dieudonné as the only french comedian so far who managed to reproduce a belgian accent properly.

a reply to: 3danimator2014

Of course they can, but they're generally not.

Besides, I dont really consider Israel a part of the Western world, they're pretty darned removed culturally I would say, even if they're a developed nation with a high standard of living.

I'm talking mainly about Europe here, or more generally about the Jewish diaspora.
Israel is nothing like Europe, they're an entity by themselves, a product of Zionism. Europeans Jews usually haven't been targeted as heavily by propaganda as Israeli or American ones, and they're not in a violent conflict with European muslims, though they are sometimes the targets of muslims.

I don't turn a blind eye to the suffering of Palestinians or the nazi-esque tactics employed by Israel.
I'm not a reaction machine that will set off emotionally in the opposite direction of any one category or creed.
Just because I don't like the effects muslim immigration is having on Europe doesn't mean that I support Israeli atrocities.

a reply to: TheTengriist

No, what you were postulating was that the hate for muslims and the hate for Jews is identical. I don't buy it and that's what I elaborated on pretty heavily in my reply.

You see, by comparing two immigrants groups to each other I'm trying to make you understand that there is a wide gap in the way different immigrant groups are perceived and that is highly correlated with the behaviour of said groups. They act certain ways, all cultures and groups do. Yes there are individuals but there are also general trends, this is why we generalize, it's a useful tool. Some don't seem to understand it though and think that generalizing is an act of racism, and while that can be true, sometimes it's just pointing out the truth.
Some people act certain ways, the behaviour and the response may be positive or negative. But "classical racism"(since progressives keep trying to reinvent definitions) has connotations of superiority and inferiority.
Racism would be to let heavily entrenched perceived notions or stereotypes guide your individual behaviour in a negative fashion towards individuals of that particular group.
This is also true collectively, and goes for both sides, i.e. both the oppression by majority groups and anti-social and or violent behaviour by minorities. If a group is acting bad and is totally unrepentant about it they should be corrected in the most efficient manner without resorting to totalitarianism

If a group is acting out of line in society it becomes society's duty to reign them in and discipline them if they are being unreasonable, totally irrational or increasingly violent. Not pander to them, that will only get you more of the same. This is what Europe is doing.

If a group is acting in a bad way, it will also spawn an equal opposite reaction so now it's a schism in society. And two sides of the coin that needs diligent work and or healing.

So I contend that my reply was a response to what you were writing, because animosity felt towards muslims isn't completely unwarranted. It is nothing like the hate levelled at Jews.

You also seem to think that muslim hate is largely accepted. Are you an American by any chance? That would explain it. "War on Terror!" sums it up. This is why I elucidated on the perspective on muslims of Europeans because the media and political climate here is totally different, muslim hate is not accepted, at all. Media and government work together to push an ideology that caters to immigrants and immigration at all costs. I'm too much of a cynic to think that people have enough agency in this day and age to pull off such random homogeneity, not when all official institutions have been pushing it relentlessly for decades while attacking dissidence.

This would be brainwashing, yes it exists! Yes it's effective!
But no, there is no overarching conglomerate of official institutions telling me to hate muslims daily. Not around my neck of the woods.

You'll usually only see this type of thing on the left or far left in the US but in Europe mainstream politics is more centered to the left(at least to Americans, to Europeans Americans are centered to the right).
Additionally, the US has no muslim population to speak of and it's such a big country that the muslim immigration it has is a trickle in comparison to Europe.

originally posted by: EndOfDays77
The Jews are descendants of a particular Annunaki bloodline, this is why they reside in prominent positions and have been protected for millennia.

There is a very real Jewish conspiracy..but they are also pawns in a greater game and just to clarify, this is not all Jews,who are mostly decent people.

Haaaaaa ! Aliens. It wouldn't have been an ATS thread without them.
Personally I never saw one but most people, who didn't either, seems to agree that there are at least two types :
Tall blonde shinnny white cool guys who seems to be helpfull
Little grey guys that steal stuff and abduct people

I give you the images, you draw your own conclusion, as above so bellow I guess ...

originally posted by: EndOfDays77
The world is backwards,please air caution!

For those who speak french here is an interesting video where the entire cartoonist team from Charlie Hebdo got interviewed by Thierry Ardisson.



And to make it even, the show of Dieudonné 'Le mur' :