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The Human Spirit – The most powerful force in the world

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posted on Jan, 25 2015 @ 01:55 PM
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originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: backcase


So you do not deny the idea of God, just YHWH?

I do not believe in the existence of gods/goddesses/deities/divinity. All of which are human concepts.


The human conscience is enough evidence that the law is written in our hearts and that violation to the true Law is sin.

As you wish, but as far as I'm concerned, sin, like deity, is strictly a human concept.


So it would not be a sin for me to ride over your child because your child is nothing more than a by product of evolution? I don't know if you have children, but it would seem to me that if I did such a thing, that would be sinful, but since there is no evil, then there is no evil in sex trafficking of children.

Is that how you would have us believe?




posted on Jan, 25 2015 @ 01:58 PM
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I'd say the HUman Brain, thumb, cooked meat, and straightening of spine are SOME of the most powerful influencing factors on Planet Earth.

Things like Fire, Ocean, Winds and volcanism are far more powerful and destiny changing.

ETA how could i forget gravity?
edit on 25-1-2015 by zazzafrazz because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 25 2015 @ 02:48 PM
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originally posted by: zazzafrazz
I'd say the HUman Brain, thumb, cooked meat, and straightening of spine are SOME of the most powerful influencing factors on Planet Earth.

Things like Fire, Ocean, Winds and volcanism are far more powerful and destiny changing.


Maybe, but today those things are more like tourism dollars....

Bandeh Aceh was so powerful the earth was knocked off the axis by two degrees and yet for all that devastation and destruction and high cost of human life, Indonesia still survives.

I would have to say that event was the worst for a single day that we have known in our lifetime. 275,000 people in one hour is the same size as a small city, wiped out in one hour. That is terrifying if we think about it, because it will happen again. But I may like to add that it might not have happened if there were no off shore oil drilling.

My brother, that is Celtic Pagan, does not like the idea of fracking, which he says "you can't keep poking the earth mother without expecting her to react".

And I say our lifetime, because I don't know how old you are, but I was not alive for Hiroshima or Nagasaki, and that is even frightening to think about, we have now the power in our hands to destroy nations completely. That is why I do not agree with nuclear weapons nor nuclear energy, Chernobyl proves that.
edit on 1/25/2015 by WarminIndy because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 25 2015 @ 03:06 PM
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a reply to: WarminIndy


Then there is no judgment that you can place onto God nor onto anyone that believes in God.

With no good or evil then God is neither good nor evil. That's a quandry, how does a God who does not exist have any moral objections placed onto Him and since there can be no moral judgments of good or evil then there is no good or evil in the world. The people doing evil must simply be products of evolution and nothing more.



So it would not be a sin for me to ride over your child because your child is nothing more than a by product of evolution? I don't know if you have children, but it would seem to me that if I did such a thing, that would be sinful, but since there is no evil, then there is no evil in sex trafficking of children.

Is that how you would have us believe?

As much as I realize this is a futile debate, for some reason we are inclined to repeat ourselves over and over. The difference is, I lived decades from your perspective. I seriously doubt you have ever a day from mine. Be that as it may:
Sin is a religious concept, based on the idea that morals and ethics are the domain of deities. Therefore, committing any act considered to be good, evil, right, wrong, is a transgression of the law of god. Not man. While sin is often used in our society to define immoral or unethical practices. It is because those using it, don't understand it's usage.

That said. Morals, ethics, and law are determined by the group. Not just the individual. If I were on the earth alone. All would be lawful for me, except what I determine not to do, because it harms my chance to survive and thrive. But once you introduce another individual, I am not alone. The dynamic changes. If I want to survive and thrive along side the other individual, then I can't murder, rape, or steal from that individual if I want to perpetuate the relationship. This is where morals and ethics come from. Not god.

No. There is no sin in running over my child. However, it is murder according to the group, for obvious reasons. Remember...survive and thrive. The original basic laws of the group were determined with those two things in mind. However, over time societies have crafted whole sets of rules to govern themselves by. Many of these have become universal among humans. Some are still specific to individual cultures. And unfortunately, some were crafted to let one group survive and thrive better than others, and lord over others.

So how can we judge god? Simple. God is judged by the group. So yes, even those who believe only in abiogenesis and evolution can judge god for "his" crimes against humanity. And yes, we can judge those who support a god who has committed such atrocities against humanity. But that's for another thread.

The bottom line is, the base ordinances written in the bible were not handed down from god. They were born of necessity so humans could survive and thrive as a group. Anything that opposes those two ideas is judged by the group as immoral and unethical. No deity required.



posted on Jan, 25 2015 @ 03:16 PM
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originally posted by: backcase
a reply to: Klassified

Do you believe in anything? You seem to find comfort in this forum, whatever you believe.


If you are asking if there is a spiritual side to me. Yes there is. Comfort? More like a place to discuss ideas and topics with others I normally don't in every day life. Most people aren't aware of half of what we discuss here exists. Let alone be able to give their opinion about it. This is why the broad diversity on ATS is so valuable. Do you know how long it would take without places like ATS, to get such a diverse cross-section of opinion and perspective on the wide range of topics we discuss here? It would be a monumental task. But here, I can post a topic, and get feedback from different cultures and/or perspectives in minutes. It's incredible.



posted on Jan, 25 2015 @ 03:19 PM
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a reply to: Klassified

Are you comfortable with groupthink?

I am not. I have seen what happens when groupthink becomes the order of the day.

BTW, are you judging my life by my statement of faith, when you don't even know me or my life? What is this stereotypical image you have of me, if I may ask?

ATS is just a tiny portion of my life and it isn't even the biggest insight to what goes on in my world, but I think we would all be better served if perhaps you can explain to me exactly what you think my life is about.



posted on Jan, 25 2015 @ 03:29 PM
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originally posted by: backcase

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: backcase

originally posted by: Bleeeeep
a reply to: backcase

How would you differentiate spirit and will?

Is will only the spirit / purpose / desire which you enact? Force / spirit which has been used / translated?


Will is want and decision.

Will would be the decision, and the spirit would be a factor in the decision making process. The spirit of man holds all the advice that man has received and then presents this to the mind.

The will acts when the decision to be made presents itself. The spirit of man cannot MAKE him do anything.

My spirit advises me to not sin because it is always aware of God. My will when I sin is to ignore this voice, and thus I sin and go against my spirit.

But I'm still learning on this subject. So take what I say here with salt, I do not wish to lead anyone away from the truth, but to clarify it.


Where in your body does will reside? Where does decision reside? Where does spirit reside?


All three are both internal and external, being present in man's whole being and what presents itself to him.


Decision resides in your liver? If your brain is removed, do you still have will? Your appendix advises you? I think your answer is nonsensical because you either realized that you don't know the answer to the question or you didn't give the question a second of thought.



posted on Jan, 25 2015 @ 03:38 PM
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a reply to: WarminIndy


Are you comfortable with groupthink?

All too often, groupthink permeates our society. This is especially true regarding religion and politics, without leaving out the other places it infects.


I am not. I have seen what happens when groupthink becomes the order of the day.

I have too. See it every day. Saw it in the fundamentalist church. Especially when I was an elder(deacon).


BTW, are you judging my life by my statement of faith, when you don't even know me or my life? What is this stereotypical image you have of me, if I may ask?

Not by any means, but your statement of faith says much about you, depending on your denominational leaning, or lack thereof. Probably more so to me, than many others, because I lived my life by it for a long time.
Do you judge my life by my lack of a statement of faith? Of course you do. I am a heathen to you.


ATS is just a tiny portion of my life and it isn't even the biggest insight to what goes on in my world, but I think we would all be better served if perhaps you can explain to me exactly what you think my life is about.

You mean you would be better served.
I have no idea what your life is about. No more than you know what mine is about. We met on a forum, and we only have what we each say to gauge our responses by. I try my best not to presume too much on ATS, but I am human, and I suspect I am talking to a human. Though I could be wrong about that. I'd say the odds are in my favor, I'm right.

edit on 1/25/2015 by Klassified because: corrections and more corrections



posted on Jan, 25 2015 @ 03:58 PM
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originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: WarminIndy


Are you comfortable with groupthink?

All too often, groupthink permeates our society. This is especially true regarding religion and politics, without leaving out the other places it infects.


I am not. I have seen what happens when groupthink becomes the order of the day.

I have too. See it every day. Saw it in the fundamentalist church. Especially when I was an elder(deacon).


BTW, are you judging my life by my statement of faith, when you don't even know me or my life? What is this stereotypical image you have of me, if I may ask?

Not by any means, but your statement of faith says much about you, depending on your denominational leaning, or lack thereof. Probably more so to me, than many others, because I lived my life by it for a long time.
Do you judge my life by my lack of a statement of faith? Of course you do. I am a heathen to you.


ATS is just a tiny portion of my life and it isn't even the biggest insight to what goes on in my world, but I think we would all be better served if perhaps you can explain to me exactly what you think my life is about.

You mean you would be better served.
I have no idea what your life is about. No more than you know what mine is about. We met on a forum, and we only have what we each say to gauge our responses by. I try my best not to presume too much on ATS, but I am human, and I suspect I am talking to a human. Though I could be wrong about that. I'd say the odds are in my favor, I'm right.


Well then, you are wrong about me. NO, you are not a heathen to me. Why would you even think that I would think about you that way?

WE would be better served because YOU said you are a heathen to me. THAT comes from your own skewed view of Christianity, not mine. YOU judge me according to YOUR experience so YOU based an assumption on what YOU thought all Christians are like.

Would you please kindly point out anywhere that I have ever thought that way about you?

Now, regarding my denominational leaning, my parents didn't take us to church often to develop any attachment to a denomination. But if I had to go to a denominational church, then it would be one that is very open, very transparent, very accepting of every social class. And my learning about Christianity has been really through my own searching because I didn't go to church often.

I am a mix of Quaker/Mystic/Pentecostal/Jewish, my dad's family (that I didn't grow up around) were Pentecostal Holiness International. My mom's family were mixed Jewish/Nazarine/something.... So to think I had one Christian denominational teaching is not something I understand, because I had no Orthodox-Fundamentalist teaching.

I am not Fundamentalist or Orthodox Christian. Those are not a part of my upbringing and certainly something I don't attain to now.

In my family, there are atheists and agnostics as well as Celtic Pagan, we are eclectic like that. So what made you assume some type of Fundamentalism in me, when I never was exposed to that in my childhood?

I am not Catholic, and yet have no problem defending Catholics. I am not Baptist and choose to never be Baptist, but that is my own choice.

Yes, I grew up hearing about Jesus Christ, but the concept of relationship was more important than any Fundamentalism, Orthodoxy or prescribed canon or creeds. I grew up in the lowest class, the "white trash" family. We were extremely impoverished with everything that comes with impoverishment because my dad was a paranoid schizophrenic who was never treated for it, and two brothers who exhibit the same symptoms.

So now, from that, what do you assume now about me? I don't assume or presume to know about your life, only your words posted on ATS.



posted on Jan, 25 2015 @ 04:56 PM
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a reply to: WarminIndy
Well, first off. The heathen statement is more humor than anything else. Few xtians these days use the term, and seldom literally if they do. It's meant to keep things from getting too serious.


WE would be better served because YOU said you are a heathen to me. THAT comes from your own skewed view of Christianity, not mine. YOU judge me according to YOUR experience so YOU based an assumption on what YOU thought all Christians are like.

I have been around other denominations besides my own, and am familiar with their beliefs. It's just that I personally was fundamentalist. I think my view of xtianity as a whole is quite well informed. Xtians however, are a different matter altogether. Since individuals and organizations pick and choose from the bible what they want to live by, and discard the rest. That's one reason there are so many sects.


I am a mix of Quaker/Mystic/Pentecostal/Jewish...

Wow. Talk about eclectic and opposing beliefs. There was a day, I would have called YOU a heathen. lol.


So what made you assume some type of Fundamentalism in me, when I never was exposed to that in my childhood?

Because your argument about the origins and nature of morals is very fundamentalist based, whether you are aware of it or not. It wasn't that long ago I had the moral discussion with one of my own family members that is still devoutly xtian. It's better in person, because it helps keep misunderstandings down, and keeps things from getting too serious. On ATS too much can be misinterpreted or offense taken where there isn't meant to be any. But such is the nature of online forums.


Yes, I grew up hearing about Jesus Christ, but the concept of relationship was more important than any Fundamentalism, Orthodoxy or prescribed canon or creeds.

In bold. When I was xtian, I preached more than one sermon about the relationship, as opposed to legalism and literalism. It was usually met with blank stares, except for the few that actually got it.


I grew up in the lowest class, the "white trash" family. We were extremely impoverished with everything that comes with impoverishment because my dad was a paranoid schizophrenic who was never treated for it, and two brothers who exhibit the same symptoms.

I was raised in the ghetto. It doesn't sound like we were as bad off financially as you were, but some of my closest friends couldn't always afford their utilities month to month. I would sometimes bring them home to shower at my house when my parents were gone. So I am quite familiar with what you're talking about, and do not look down at anyone for circumstances beyond their control.


So now, from that, what do you assume now about me? I don't assume or presume to know about your life, only your words posted on ATS.

I assume your alright. I don't care what everyone else says.

Seriously. I don't come here just to be agreed with. Although it's great to find like-minded people. I come here to find people like you and other members who disagree with me. ATS is one of the best learning environments I've ever come across. I may argue with you until I'm blue in the face, but don't ever think for a moment, I don't value the opinions of the members here. Including yours. No matter how vehemently we disagree. I have had my mind changed more than once. And I've had to eat humble pie more times than I can count, but I wouldn't trade what I've learned here.



posted on Jan, 25 2015 @ 05:02 PM
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originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: backcase


So you do not deny the idea of God, just YHWH?

I do not believe in the existence of gods/goddesses/deities/divinity. All of which are human concepts.


The human conscience is enough evidence that the law is written in our hearts and that violation to the true Law is sin.

As you wish, but as far as I'm concerned, sin, like deity, is strictly a human concept.


So it would not be a sin for me to ride over your child because your child is nothing more than a by product of evolution? I don't know if you have children, but it would seem to me that if I did such a thing, that would be sinful, but since there is no evil, then there is no evil in sex trafficking of children.

Is that how you would have us believe?


Sin is a religious concept. It means an offense against God. Evil is also a religious concept. Do you understand that? It is possible to cause harm or do something that society considers to be abhorrent without referring to it as sin or evil. Do you understand that?



posted on Jan, 25 2015 @ 06:19 PM
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a reply to: Klassified

That was generous and honest, thank you.

Heathen...lol.

I learned a long time ago that I could not blame God for the failures of people to live up to their confession. But I also learned to look for good and it is the good that I have faith in. The reason I am so harsh about moral relativity is because I have seen it in action and know that without that inward guiding, whatever you call it is what you call it, that we remain savages and I have seen savagery, brutality and cruelty too often to say it is just something we should take for granted or too easily.

There are Christian heathens who are unjust and do terrible things, I know that all too well. But I do not want to be one of them and know that Christianity can be adaptable and can change over time. We aren't burning people at the stake any more.

I believe the inward guide,or inward light as Quakers call it, is divine. I also believe, like the Mystic, to search it and understand it. However, some people feel they can live without it and do what they want, that includes Christians, Jews, and every religion out there. Fundamentally, we are flawed, so let's learn how to deal with it and not fall into it. That's how I see it.



posted on Jan, 25 2015 @ 06:24 PM
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originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: backcase


So you do not deny the idea of God, just YHWH?

I do not believe in the existence of gods/goddesses/deities/divinity. All of which are human concepts.


The human conscience is enough evidence that the law is written in our hearts and that violation to the true Law is sin.

As you wish, but as far as I'm concerned, sin, like deity, is strictly a human concept.


So it would not be a sin for me to ride over your child because your child is nothing more than a by product of evolution? I don't know if you have children, but it would seem to me that if I did such a thing, that would be sinful, but since there is no evil, then there is no evil in sex trafficking of children.

Is that how you would have us believe?


Sin is a religious concept. It means an offense against God. Evil is also a religious concept. Do you understand that? It is possible to cause harm or do something that society considers to be abhorrent without referring to it as sin or evil. Do you understand that?


Sin is an offense against a person, because it is a person you harm by doing things to them. That's what the Law of Moses is about, not because you hurt God, but the punishment for harming others.

When you harm another, you harm God. That's why murder is a sin, because you took the life of a person created in the image of God, denied their humanity and felt that their life was not valuable or has any worth, to satisfy the inward hatred of another's humanity.

Remember the world that those early Jews were living in, it was harsh and every nation around were not so nice. Moses recognized the need for a system of laws for a group of people who were now living together as a nation. That's how the Jews perceive it, they are a nation, therefore they need laws.



posted on Jan, 25 2015 @ 06:37 PM
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a reply to: Tangerine

Don't take it so literally. The answer I wrote was meant to transcend the sense of the question. I was trying to make our conversation a bit deeper because that's where the idea is understood. You have to go below the surface.



posted on Jan, 25 2015 @ 06:39 PM
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originally posted by: backcase
a reply to: Tangerine

Don't take it so literally. The answer I wrote was meant to transcend the sense of the question. I was trying to make our conversation a bit deeper because that's where the idea is understood. You have to go below the surface.


How does talking gibberish make a conversation "deeper"? Put another way, how does the rainbow melt?
edit on 25-1-2015 by Tangerine because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 25 2015 @ 06:41 PM
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originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: backcase


So you do not deny the idea of God, just YHWH?

I do not believe in the existence of gods/goddesses/deities/divinity. All of which are human concepts.


The human conscience is enough evidence that the law is written in our hearts and that violation to the true Law is sin.

As you wish, but as far as I'm concerned, sin, like deity, is strictly a human concept.


So it would not be a sin for me to ride over your child because your child is nothing more than a by product of evolution? I don't know if you have children, but it would seem to me that if I did such a thing, that would be sinful, but since there is no evil, then there is no evil in sex trafficking of children.

Is that how you would have us believe?


Sin is a religious concept. It means an offense against God. Evil is also a religious concept. Do you understand that? It is possible to cause harm or do something that society considers to be abhorrent without referring to it as sin or evil. Do you understand that?


Sin is an offense against a person, because it is a person you harm by doing things to them. That's what the Law of Moses is about, not because you hurt God, but the punishment for harming others.

When you harm another, you harm God. That's why murder is a sin, because you took the life of a person created in the image of God, denied their humanity and felt that their life was not valuable or has any worth, to satisfy the inward hatred of another's humanity.

Remember the world that those early Jews were living in, it was harsh and every nation around were not so nice. Moses recognized the need for a system of laws for a group of people who were now living together as a nation. That's how the Jews perceive it, they are a nation, therefore they need laws.


There's not an iota of historical evidence proving that Moses ever existed and not an iota of testable evidence proving that God exists. Sin does not exist outside of a religious context any more than Moses and God exist outside of a religious context.



posted on Jan, 25 2015 @ 06:56 PM
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originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: backcase


So you do not deny the idea of God, just YHWH?

I do not believe in the existence of gods/goddesses/deities/divinity. All of which are human concepts.


The human conscience is enough evidence that the law is written in our hearts and that violation to the true Law is sin.

As you wish, but as far as I'm concerned, sin, like deity, is strictly a human concept.


So it would not be a sin for me to ride over your child because your child is nothing more than a by product of evolution? I don't know if you have children, but it would seem to me that if I did such a thing, that would be sinful, but since there is no evil, then there is no evil in sex trafficking of children.

Is that how you would have us believe?


Sin is a religious concept. It means an offense against God. Evil is also a religious concept. Do you understand that? It is possible to cause harm or do something that society considers to be abhorrent without referring to it as sin or evil. Do you understand that?


Sin is an offense against a person, because it is a person you harm by doing things to them. That's what the Law of Moses is about, not because you hurt God, but the punishment for harming others.

When you harm another, you harm God. That's why murder is a sin, because you took the life of a person created in the image of God, denied their humanity and felt that their life was not valuable or has any worth, to satisfy the inward hatred of another's humanity.

Remember the world that those early Jews were living in, it was harsh and every nation around were not so nice. Moses recognized the need for a system of laws for a group of people who were now living together as a nation. That's how the Jews perceive it, they are a nation, therefore they need laws.


There's not an iota of historical evidence proving that Moses ever existed and not an iota of testable evidence proving that God exists. Sin does not exist outside of a religious context any more than Moses and God exist outside of a religious context.


Keep telling yourself that, I'm sorry that you can't seem to grasp that history happened.

By your logic then prove to me Solon and Socrates lived. If no one existed prior to the 1st century, there is no iota to give me reason to believe those ancient philosophers did either.

If you tell me Plato lived because we have his writings of The Republic I can say that we don't have the original manuscripts because what we have now was transcribed much later. So, using your logic, Plato didn't exist, a bunch of people saying he lived doesn't make it true, because you know, followers are not good enough sources to prove existence of anyone.

Yep, your logic makes sense, Solon, Socrates, Plato, none of them existed.



posted on Jan, 25 2015 @ 06:58 PM
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originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: backcase


So you do not deny the idea of God, just YHWH?

I do not believe in the existence of gods/goddesses/deities/divinity. All of which are human concepts.


The human conscience is enough evidence that the law is written in our hearts and that violation to the true Law is sin.

As you wish, but as far as I'm concerned, sin, like deity, is strictly a human concept.


So it would not be a sin for me to ride over your child because your child is nothing more than a by product of evolution? I don't know if you have children, but it would seem to me that if I did such a thing, that would be sinful, but since there is no evil, then there is no evil in sex trafficking of children.

Is that how you would have us believe?


Sin is a religious concept. It means an offense against God. Evil is also a religious concept. Do you understand that? It is possible to cause harm or do something that society considers to be abhorrent without referring to it as sin or evil. Do you understand that?


Sin is an offense against a person, because it is a person you harm by doing things to them. That's what the Law of Moses is about, not because you hurt God, but the punishment for harming others.

When you harm another, you harm God. That's why murder is a sin, because you took the life of a person created in the image of God, denied their humanity and felt that their life was not valuable or has any worth, to satisfy the inward hatred of another's humanity.

Remember the world that those early Jews were living in, it was harsh and every nation around were not so nice. Moses recognized the need for a system of laws for a group of people who were now living together as a nation. That's how the Jews perceive it, they are a nation, therefore they need laws.


There's not an iota of historical evidence proving that Moses ever existed and not an iota of testable evidence proving that God exists. Sin does not exist outside of a religious context any more than Moses and God exist outside of a religious context.


Keep telling yourself that, I'm sorry that you can't seem to grasp that history happened.

By your logic then prove to me Solon and Socrates lived. If no one existed prior to the 1st century, there is no iota to give me reason to believe those ancient philosophers did either.

If you tell me Plato lived because we have his writings of The Republic I can say that we don't have the original manuscripts because what we have now was transcribed much later. So, using your logic, Plato didn't exist, a bunch of people saying he lived doesn't make it true, because you know, followers are not good enough sources to prove existence of anyone.

Yep, your logic makes sense, Solon, Socrates, Plato, none of them existed.


The difference is that I didn't claim they existed. You have claimed that Moses and God existed. Therefore, the onus on you is to prove your claim. You can't. End of story.



posted on Jan, 25 2015 @ 07:05 PM
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originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: backcase


So you do not deny the idea of God, just YHWH?

I do not believe in the existence of gods/goddesses/deities/divinity. All of which are human concepts.


The human conscience is enough evidence that the law is written in our hearts and that violation to the true Law is sin.

As you wish, but as far as I'm concerned, sin, like deity, is strictly a human concept.


So it would not be a sin for me to ride over your child because your child is nothing more than a by product of evolution? I don't know if you have children, but it would seem to me that if I did such a thing, that would be sinful, but since there is no evil, then there is no evil in sex trafficking of children.

Is that how you would have us believe?


Sin is a religious concept. It means an offense against God. Evil is also a religious concept. Do you understand that? It is possible to cause harm or do something that society considers to be abhorrent without referring to it as sin or evil. Do you understand that?


Sin is an offense against a person, because it is a person you harm by doing things to them. That's what the Law of Moses is about, not because you hurt God, but the punishment for harming others.

When you harm another, you harm God. That's why murder is a sin, because you took the life of a person created in the image of God, denied their humanity and felt that their life was not valuable or has any worth, to satisfy the inward hatred of another's humanity.

Remember the world that those early Jews were living in, it was harsh and every nation around were not so nice. Moses recognized the need for a system of laws for a group of people who were now living together as a nation. That's how the Jews perceive it, they are a nation, therefore they need laws.


There's not an iota of historical evidence proving that Moses ever existed and not an iota of testable evidence proving that God exists. Sin does not exist outside of a religious context any more than Moses and God exist outside of a religious context.


Keep telling yourself that, I'm sorry that you can't seem to grasp that history happened.

By your logic then prove to me Solon and Socrates lived. If no one existed prior to the 1st century, there is no iota to give me reason to believe those ancient philosophers did either.

If you tell me Plato lived because we have his writings of The Republic I can say that we don't have the original manuscripts because what we have now was transcribed much later. So, using your logic, Plato didn't exist, a bunch of people saying he lived doesn't make it true, because you know, followers are not good enough sources to prove existence of anyone.

Yep, your logic makes sense, Solon, Socrates, Plato, none of them existed.


The difference is that I didn't claim they existed. You have claimed that Moses and God existed. Therefore, the onus on you is to prove your claim. You can't. End of story.


Yes, and so what?

Do you just cruise around looking for threads where you can say "Oh look....onus to prove, burden of proof". Yes, God exists and you are proof of His existence.



posted on Jan, 25 2015 @ 07:06 PM
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originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: backcase


So you do not deny the idea of God, just YHWH?

I do not believe in the existence of gods/goddesses/deities/divinity. All of which are human concepts.


The human conscience is enough evidence that the law is written in our hearts and that violation to the true Law is sin.

As you wish, but as far as I'm concerned, sin, like deity, is strictly a human concept.


So it would not be a sin for me to ride over your child because your child is nothing more than a by product of evolution? I don't know if you have children, but it would seem to me that if I did such a thing, that would be sinful, but since there is no evil, then there is no evil in sex trafficking of children.

Is that how you would have us believe?


Sin is a religious concept. It means an offense against God. Evil is also a religious concept. Do you understand that? It is possible to cause harm or do something that society considers to be abhorrent without referring to it as sin or evil. Do you understand that?


Sin is an offense against a person, because it is a person you harm by doing things to them. That's what the Law of Moses is about, not because you hurt God, but the punishment for harming others.

When you harm another, you harm God. That's why murder is a sin, because you took the life of a person created in the image of God, denied their humanity and felt that their life was not valuable or has any worth, to satisfy the inward hatred of another's humanity.

Remember the world that those early Jews were living in, it was harsh and every nation around were not so nice. Moses recognized the need for a system of laws for a group of people who were now living together as a nation. That's how the Jews perceive it, they are a nation, therefore they need laws.


There's not an iota of historical evidence proving that Moses ever existed and not an iota of testable evidence proving that God exists. Sin does not exist outside of a religious context any more than Moses and God exist outside of a religious context.


Keep telling yourself that, I'm sorry that you can't seem to grasp that history happened.

By your logic then prove to me Solon and Socrates lived. If no one existed prior to the 1st century, there is no iota to give me reason to believe those ancient philosophers did either.

If you tell me Plato lived because we have his writings of The Republic I can say that we don't have the original manuscripts because what we have now was transcribed much later. So, using your logic, Plato didn't exist, a bunch of people saying he lived doesn't make it true, because you know, followers are not good enough sources to prove existence of anyone.

Yep, your logic makes sense, Solon, Socrates, Plato, none of them existed.


The difference is that I didn't claim they existed. You have claimed that Moses and God existed. Therefore, the onus on you is to prove your claim. You can't. End of story.


Yes, and so what?

Do you just cruise around looking for threads where you can say "Oh look....onus to prove, burden of proof". Yes, God exists and you are proof of His existence.


No. It just seems that every thread where I find you posting elicits that response from me. If you think my existence is proof that God exists, you need to go back to school and take a class in basic science and a class in basic logic.



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