(Part 1) The Phoenix Lights - Laying To Rest The Myth

originally posted by: stirling
The event will forever be enshrouded in mystery regardless of all the debunkers in the world....that's just the way thing go.....nice try though....

At this point it is only mysterious to UFO as alien spacecraft believers who ignore evidence to the contrary.

originally posted by: KellyPrettyBear
a reply to: Jay-morris

I hear you on the clique aspect of this.

I'm not sure people get this about me, but I'm a HUGE skeptic.
I throw out 100% of religion and 99% of "spirituality" and about
95% of UFOlogy.

Yes, I do own Carl Sagan's books. I could easily imitate Jadestar
and others who take the approach from that end of the discussion.

I too am saddened by our 'Demon haunted world' like Carl wrote
about.

Unfortunately? (it is what it is), there IS something that goes bump
in the night (just because 95% of 'demons' are just delusions doesn't
mean that 100% are).

This puts me in the very uncomfortable situation where there are only
a small handful of folks I can have a good conversation about this
and related subjects with.. and I've spent decades (longer than
some of the 'skeptics' on this board have even been alive) finding
the few people that I have..

Anyway.. I did S&F this thread; a good explanation about how
the deception may have been done is worth something.

Kev

I gave you a star for this. I think its important to note that many of us on the skeptical side would love this stuff to be true and that's why we're attracted to the subject. I know I would love for there to be an answer to the Fermi Paradox in the form of space travelling ET UFOs but unfortunately the evidence just doesn't lead to that. Even UFOlogists like Jacques Vallee came to that conclusion over three decades ago.

As a scientist I am interested in mysteries so I'm not really here for the 95% of UFOs that are explainable but the 5% which might represent learning something new about our world.

All skeptics are not debunkers.

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: KellyPrettyBear
a reply to: Jay-morris

I hear you on the clique aspect of this.

I'm not sure people get this about me, but I'm a HUGE skeptic.
I throw out 100% of religion and 99% of "spirituality" and about
95% of UFOlogy.

Yes, I do own Carl Sagan's books. I could easily imitate Jadestar
and others who take the approach from that end of the discussion.

I too am saddened by our 'Demon haunted world' like Carl wrote
about.

Unfortunately? (it is what it is), there IS something that goes bump
in the night (just because 95% of 'demons' are just delusions doesn't
mean that 100% are).

This puts me in the very uncomfortable situation where there are only
a small handful of folks I can have a good conversation about this
and related subjects with.. and I've spent decades (longer than
some of the 'skeptics' on this board have even been alive) finding
the few people that I have..

Anyway.. I did S&F this thread; a good explanation about how
the deception may have been done is worth something.

Kev

I gave you a star for this. I think its important to note that many of us on the skeptical side would love this stuff to be true and that's why we're attracted to the subject. I know I would love for there to be an answer to the Fermi Paradox in the form of space travelling ET UFOs but unfortunately the evidence just doesn't lead to that. Even UFOlogists like Jacques Vallee came to that conclusion over three decades ago.

As a scientist I am interested in mysteries so I'm not really here for the 95% of UFOs that are explainable but the 5% which might represent learning something new about our world.

All skeptics are not debunkers.

You are right. Only a very small percent of UFO cases are really good. But the subject is a joke now, with the Greer's of this world.

First of all, people should not instantly think ET if they read a UFO case. Heck, if a saw a disc snapped UFO hover above my house, that's still not enough for me to shout et.

At the end of the day, we just don't know, so they can be any of a number of things from secret military craft to et's to time travellers etc etc etc

a reply to: JadeStar

Well that's a fine post, you got a star from me too.

I wish that we could ALL exceed our individual psychologies and roll up
our sleeves and work together to solve important issues together.

More traditional scientists get a lot of respect from me, but not all of them
have the creative 'out of the box' capability of the more fringe minds.
And yes, some of them wallow in their beliefs for psychological reasons.

But fringe minds generally make proclamations without proof, and wallow
in their beliefs for psychological reasons. But on occasion they can kick
up some great stuff to be researched.

Thanks for your post; among the more 'straight players' in this forum,
you have gained some respect from me.

Logic + Creativity is a hard thing to accomplish.

Kev

Did anyone in Phoenix that night ever come forward and say they saw a flight of A-10's? I know usually you wouldn't but with all the hype about this, people living in the city, must have been radio phone ins and the like, there must have been people who actually identified the A-10 if that's what they were.

Also, can you put in a FOI request for the flight plan and debriefing etc? These things should be well documented (I assume they don't just give you the keys to an A-10 full of flares and say go fill yer boots, see you in a few hours). Training missions would be planned and then reviewed for lessons learned, outcome etc.

Also, 5 pilots, numerous ground crew, have any of them come forward to say I loaded the A-10, I was on the ground monitoring the mission, I was the pilot who flew in formation and dropped my flares.

I am sure they would all know the hype they caused, unless that was the intention. I suppose a psy-op to cover other worldly aircraft would be pretty secret but then they havn't done a good job releasing enough information to prove it was A-10s.

Does Zaphod or Boomer know how frequent 5 A-10s fly together for training? Thought it was always 2, training for the real mission, what mission would require 5 in the same flight? flying 5 seems like things could get pretty dangerous pretty fast, especially at night!

originally posted by: Forensick
Also, 5 pilots, numerous ground crew, have any of them come forward to say I loaded the A-10, I was on the ground monitoring the mission, I was the pilot who flew in formation and dropped my flares.

If you take some time to look at all three opening posts, one of the pilots that flew an A-10 and dropped flares was named, and he appears in one of the videos.

Just a theory but maybe there was flares and aircraft flying in formation, but also the strange large silent craft. ?

originally posted by: JimTSpock
Just a theory but maybe there was flares and aircraft flying in formation, but also the strange large silent craft. ?

Interesting theory and very possible as well.

When you get a lot of people who see the same thing from different angles and areas, describe it the same and don't know each other, then there is something to it.

originally posted by: JimTSpock
Just a theory but maybe there was flares and aircraft flying in formation, but also the strange large silent craft. ?

That was brought up earlier in the thread, but falls short with the evidence. Explained here:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Hi _BoneZ_ Is there any Data ie: official radar or flight path records/reports relating to Operation Snowbird and the flight paths for the place and time ? Has anyone filed FOI requests to find out if indeed these planes were in the same place the witnesses observed the formation ?

If Ive missed a post please forgive me.

All the best

uforn

a reply to: uforn

None what-so-ever that I'm aware of.

originally posted by: _BoneZ_
a reply to: uforn

None what-so-ever that I'm aware of.

That poses a problem then with your theory they were planes, How do we know for sure they were planes flying in formation when no one has took the timeout to get the flight records for the night in question ? More research needs to be done

a reply to: uforn

It poses no problem at all. Witnesses saw the planes. I've included them in the OP.

originally posted by: _BoneZ_
a reply to: uforn

It poses no problem at all. Witnesses saw the planes. I've included them in the OP.

Witnesses also saw a large Boomerang V shaped object.

originally posted by: _BoneZ_
a reply to: uforn

It poses no problem at all. Witnesses saw the planes. I've included them in the OP.

It poses no problem if you believe the witnesses statements of planes but there are other witnesses that claim they had seen a solid object.

So in order to put this to rest we need official documentation to prove for a fact that there were indeed these planes flying in formation at the same time the witnesses have stated and in the place they were located. Until then its just a very good theory

We have no official radar reports of the planes or anything else relating to these planes, just witness testimony of them and we know how that can be somewhat sketchy

a reply to: Forensick

During exercises it's fairly common to have at least one or two flights of five or six, or even bigger. Normal is 2-4, ferry flights over water are 4-6, but with this being such a short hop five is entirely possible.

They usually prefer even numbers, so if one breaks another pilot can help with checklists and stay with him, but in this case it's pretty much an up and down flight.

originally posted by: JadeStar
.... I would love for there to be an answer to the Fermi Paradox in the form of space travelling ET UFOs but unfortunately the evidence just doesn't lead to that. Even UFOlogists like Jacques Vallee came to that conclusion over three decades ago.

I'm afraid your statement may give the wrong impression. What Vallee has actually said is that he would be disappointed if it were merely only aliens who were behind the UFO phenomenon. He says he finds the evidence for 'intelligent' UFOs compelling and even more mystifying than the ET explanation by itself would justify. But I don't think he's opposed to the ET hypothesis as a component of the explanation.

As a scientist I am interested in mysteries so I'm not really here for the 95% of UFOs that are explainable but the 5% which might represent learning something new about our world....

What kind of scientist are you? Very interesting, and always excellent to see that kind of quality here.

Regardless, you might be interested in the work of Dr. Peter Sturrock. (Ph.D., asytophysicist, prof. at Stanford for a long time....) You've said that astronomers don't report UFOs, but Sturrock's studies pretty much refute that idea. He found that when polled anonymously, they absolutely do admit to seeing UFOs, and if I recall correctly it was in about the same ratio as the rest of the population. Professional scientists just refuse to report them or to speak openly about the topic due to fear of ridicule.

McDonald, Vallee, and Hynek have said that many of their peers in astronomy and physics were privately very much interested in the topic, and that several reported having witnessed some truly bizarre UFOs. (Those are three old names in UFOlogy to be sure, but I honestly can't think of a single skeptic in all these years who's had that level of scientific credential and has spent as much time studying the topic.)

originally posted by: uforn
Hi _BoneZ_ Is there any Data ie: official radar or flight path records/reports relating to Operation Snowbird and the flight paths for the place and time ? Has anyone filed FOI requests to find out if indeed these planes were in the same place the witnesses observed the formation ?

If Ive missed a post please forgive me.

All the best

uforn

There has been an attempt to show the flight path of the UFO, ive never seen anything about the A10 flight path.

Pic taken from the video HERE


Flight path is the thin yellow line starting in the upper right

originally posted by: 111DPKING111
There has been an attempt to show the flight path of the UFO, ive never seen anything about the A10 flight path.

Pic taken from the video HERE

Flight path is the thin yellow line starting in the upper right

Yes I was thinking this kind of map analysis where plotting all the witness times and locations, and observation type (planes or large craft) might answer the question about whether everyone saw the A-10 planes, or whether there might have been another object.

If all the sightings follow the same path and timing regardless of craft description, this would support Bonez explanation that some people misidentified the A-10s as some kind of large craft though an illusory effect, which is quite plausible. If however there were two different paths, there could have been A-10s and something else. I've never tried to do this, but depending on what the analysis showed it could either be the final nail in the coffin of the "large craft" myth, or else show that something else was going on with a stealth blimp or whatever.