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(Part 1) The Phoenix Lights - Laying To Rest The Myth

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posted on Mar, 13 2015 @ 12:51 AM
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originally posted by: joelr

originally posted by: Arbitrageur

originally posted by: joelr
Maybe this is what confused me? ...

There are some other, bigger problems with the airplane misidentification theory also. It's a reasonable hypothesis but it's far from airtight.
Now that you have confirmed your own confabulation, I'd think you'd be more understanding that if it can happen to you, it can happen to others. It can happen to me and to any of us. I don't think you've fully appreciated this fact yet and until you do, you will continue to see the misidentification problems as bigger issues than they really are.



Right but some of the witnesses were very clear about what they saw. The sightings started in Las Vegas much earlier so there are daylight sightings also.

Another problem is how do 1000's of people report a giant ufo that is really planes on one day and then never again before or after?
The police dispatcher confirmed that she had 100's of calls and the Phoenix councilwoman reported over 1000 calls over the next few weeks regarding that one night. If they were planes there would be other reports of similar sightings. If planes could cause that illusion it would happen again. Planes did a flyover and dropped flares to show people what it looked like and no one claimed it looked like the triangle thing.

Another things is close to 100% of the reports say there were very large, red-orange lights, approx 15 feet in diameter on the underside of the thing and many reports of the lights being sunken back like in a well. They also say the lights projected no beam like a search light but was more like a glowing orb.
If you go with the plane hypothesis we at least need a plane with large red/orange globes on the underside. That doesn't exist. Planes are made to land without landing gear in case of emergency.



An airline pilot who saw the triangle confirms what many others have said - it took about 15 minutes to pass overhead and was far to slow to be any airplane. There are no varying reports on those details.

This really sounds like a military secret or something from somewhere else.
Again, the Illinois sighting by all those police officers suggests that it's likely there are triangle crafts flying around silently, slow and can accelerate quickly.


I think your conclusions are reasonable and rational, and probably right on the money. Thanks for posting.




posted on Apr, 5 2015 @ 03:38 AM
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If you read through the reports on the nuforc website for 3/13/97 it's clear that there were multiple phenomena going on on that night and a few nights around that date.
There was also a V formation of single objects that would sometimes pull out of the V and do strange maneuvers.

Here is one report that reflects that. The video in this thread used to debunk the single craft theory might actually be those ufo's.
That one kid with the telescope probably did see a formation of planes, there were planes around also.

A few families in the suburbs approx 1 mile from Camelback mountain said after the lights/triangle craft passed the mountain peak it took about 15 minutes to get to their house. They had time to go inside and gather the family, come back outside and watch the slow moving triangle for about 10 min. The ship came in between 2 mountain peaks, flying below the height of the peaks.

Even if the event actually took 5 minutes to go from the mountain to the houses, it's still only 12 miles per hour.
At 15 minutes it's 4 miles per hour. We get a decent assessment of the height because it was below those peaks.
Nat Geo did a documentary about that one incident.

Does anyone know how slow planes can go when gliding? It's not 12 mph I know that. On takeoff I think commercial flights get to 75 before lift off? That is probably the slowest speed you can fly at.

Also the lights barely fit between the peaks. Would planes fly that close to a mountain? At 12 mph....



www.nuforc.org...

As I watched the “V” formation approach the point directly east of me, the objects did a coordinated maneuver: They moved out along the “V” and spun in a coordinated circular pattern and then moved close together in a circular group packed tightly but none of them overlapping. They moved out of the “V” formation in opposite directions and formed two separated circular clusters. In doing this complicated maneuver, they never changed speed or their north-south orientation. The motion out of the “V” formation reminded me of the Paramount logo at the start of Hollywood movies where the star flow up an around the mountain forming a circle of stars.

This happened out of the arms of the “V” forming a rotating circle of rectangular objects that then tightened the circle into a paced grouping also having a roughly circular perimeter with all the objects maintaining their north-south direction only now formed into two separate circular tightly packed cluster – still moving toward the jet airliner. The separation between the two clusters was approximately the length of the ends of the “V” when I first saw it and when it reached the point direct east of me..

These objects continued moving due north and at some point would intersect the path of the jet airliner – either In front of it or behind it – at least one or the other of the now two separate circular tightly packed clusters. The jet airliner continued NE. The two clusters were moving toward the rear quarter of the plane and I was sure one of the cluster would intersect and pass over the plane either above it or below it and that would give me some idea of their relative size and altitude. As the two clusters moved toward the rear quarter of the plane, probably at about a 45 degree angle if a passenger on the plane were looking back over the plane’s horizontal tail assembly. As both clusters approached the plane and reached a point fairly close, both clusters simultaneously blinked invisible – as if the simultaneously and instantly turned on some kind of “cloaking” effect that rendered them invisible. Neither cluster passed over or under the plane. They just suddenly turned invisible. The jet airliner continued it NE heading, the pilot or crew or passengers, unaware that a large cluster of rectangular objects had nearly intercepted it.

When I arrived home, about a half mile from where this sighting occurred, I looked in the White Pages and found two listings for UFO reporting. The first one I called rang with no answer. The second one I called, UFO Watch I think was the name, located in Fountain Hills east of Scottsdale. The man I talked to said it was extremely unusual to see rectangular objects and even more unusual to see multiple rectangular objects. He said the complex coordinated maneuvers I described the objects performing would not be possible from any current technology he was aware of. The U.S. Air Force didn’t have anything capable of such a complicated, coordinated maneuver and they certainly would not perform something as complicated as the circular spin and tight formation clustering over a densely populated city such as Phoenix. He told me to make a note of what I had seen and leave it at that. He said no one would believe me. I told him that I had two thoughts. One was that this was the first UFO sighting I had ever experienced and couldn’t believe that it occurred over a metropolitan area. I thought UFO sightings usually were seen over remote, rural areas. And second, that this occurred in the early evening and surely I wasn’t the only one who had witnessed it. People would be out playing tennis or shooting baskets or doing other outdoor activities and would have seen the same “V” formation and the maneuvers that I had seen. I watched the news the next couple of days and never heard any report of such a sighting or similar UFO report. I find it hard to believe that I was the only one who witnessed this unusual event. There was a different sighting reported over Phoenix of some kind of unusual “lights” but they were moving in the opposite direction, from what I have heard, moving from north to south. I told the man in Fountain Hills that I was sure that if I went out and purchased some video or photography equipment that it was unlikely that I would encounter such an unusual display of UFO mass coordinated maneuvers in the rest of my lifetime. I probably would be wasting my time expecting to see such a sighting again and hoping to record it on videotape or on photographic film. But what I had witnessed spanned about ten minutes at the most, maybe not that long. The objects were not moving very fast, no faster than the jet airliner. If I move my hand to trace the movement of the objects, the time lapse is more like one or two minutes, possibly less than one minute. When I first saw the “V” formation, it was about halfway between the hor! izon to the SE and zenith looking due East. This is the first time I have ever given a written report of that sighting. I have told family and friends what I saw. Each time a movie started showing the Paramount Pictures-Gulf & Western stars spinning in a circle, I would mention that’s what I saw those UFO objects do as they moved out of the “V” formation.
edit on 5-4-2015 by joelr because: html



posted on Apr, 5 2015 @ 04:36 AM
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a reply to: joelr
The witness doesn't even know what date that happened and they changed the date he reported, to match the date of the Phoenix lights.

That's not what I would call a strong data point for the Phoenix lights event when the date the witness reported was a different date. Not only that he reported it 10 years later which is absolutely stale information. it's been documented in other UFO sightings that witnesses have huge discrepancies even as soon as 3 weeks after the event with what actually happened.

How could the guy have not heard of Phoenix lights since it was all over newspapers and TV? Was he living in a cave?

The whole thing is highly questionable at best and it doesn't make much sense to assign much weight to such a report.



posted on Apr, 5 2015 @ 09:57 AM
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Here is ex-Arizona governor Fife Symington on the Phoenix lights incident, and he states he saw the craft:

1. He saw the craft and it was his opinion it was not of human origin (he is an ex air-force officer)

2. His office received hundreds of calls from people who saw something similar

3. He says yes the military did shoot up some flares, but that was much later than the majority of the sightings, and said what he saw definitely wasn't flares (again, ex air force officer)

4. People were panicking thus he did the press conference spoof, just to reduce the panic

5. Any debunking "explanations" that this was some kind of jet "V" formation are ridiculous and pure disinformation. Many witnesses were close to the craft, heard no noise at all before, during and after the craft passed over, and the craft was moving quite slowly, slow enough to stall any jets.

UFO debunkers want proof but always ignore it when it occurs. And ex air force officer and ex governor, you don't get much more credible than that.

The second video contains many more witnesses to this incident.



Arizona lights witness reports are throughout the documentary, but many start at about 1 min 25 secs in:



I guess the OP was unaware of the ex governor statements when the thread was created, because it seems if we gather all the facts this was a genuine unidentified aerial phenomena, and not any of the usual misinformation put out by the military such as flares or jets or missiles.
edit on 5-4-2015 by PlanetXisHERE because: addition



posted on Apr, 5 2015 @ 10:09 AM
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a reply to: PlanetXisHERE
I agree, so you might want to rethink this.



posted on Apr, 5 2015 @ 07:31 PM
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originally posted by: Arbitrageur
a reply to: joelr
The witness doesn't even know what date that happened and they changed the date he reported, to match the date of the Phoenix lights.

That's not what I would call a strong data point for the Phoenix lights event when the date the witness reported was a different date. Not only that he reported it 10 years later which is absolutely stale information. it's been documented in other UFO sightings that witnesses have huge discrepancies even as soon as 3 weeks after the event with what actually happened.

How could the guy have not heard of Phoenix lights since it was all over newspapers and TV? Was he living in a cave?

The whole thing is highly questionable at best and it doesn't make much sense to assign much weight to such a report.



That is true that he wasn't sure of the date. But that was just one report. And the odd phenomena does not have to be limited to one night. A report like that from 2 nights later is significant.

Incidently I also do not know of any news events because I do not read the newspaper or have cable tv.
I sometimes follow world news online and sometimes people mention things in the news but many people find ufo stories to be ridiculous and do not go around sharing them with others. I can see how some people might miss something like that. When I heard about it in 97 (I lived with my folks then and they were news junkies), I also heard the word "FLARES" and never gave it any more thought. I certainly would never talk about a ridiculous misidentification like that with others and give them the idea I was a ufo nut. Back then I was very anti-ufo. I still believe there may be some odd phenomena going on but there is even more hyping of false information by people who earn a living in the ufo field.

If it's your job to sell ufo information and no good stories are around to research and sell what the heck do researchers do to pay the rent? The answer is whatever it takes.


If you read all the reports on that site from March 13 and listen to the Art Bell show with 4 known ufo researchers from the National UFO Reporting center, Mike, Peter and Jim, AND you believe the stories they have uncovered (there are actual witnesses on the show) then it's really hard not to believe in the ufo theory.
I bet you would believe it if you took in all that material. Several witnesses saw triangles merge, roll into a ball of light and disappear. Fighter jets were seen approaching orbs and triangles where the orbs sped away upwards and one triangle held it's position and forced the jet to swerve.
There are reports of an Air Force employee whom admitted the base was on lockdown and that one of the pilots who attempted an intercept was shaken and needed assistance to exit his cockpit due to his emotional condition after viewing a ship.

UNLESS.....Art Bell needed some juicy show material and called these guys and said "make some crap up, get some fake witnesses, etc..."
But the researchers are not writing books. They do however need funding.......

If the stories are true then something big happened and it's getting buried under rational explanations that do not fit.

Again what planes have huge amber lights on the bottom and go 12 mph?



posted on Apr, 5 2015 @ 07:46 PM
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a reply to: joelr

Yes, I'm sure Art Bell also called up ex-governor Fife Symington and asked him to "juice up" his story a little as well.



posted on Apr, 9 2015 @ 07:18 PM
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a reply to: joelr




UNLESS.....Art Bell needed some juicy show material and called these guys and said "make some crap up, get some fake witnesses, etc..."


Pretty wild and baseless accusation.

There really is no reason to make anything up, when it comes to alien sightings and contact. The reality of it is far more fascinating than fiction.



posted on Apr, 10 2015 @ 04:46 AM
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originally posted by: Scdfa
There really is no reason to make anything up, when it comes to alien sightings and contact. The reality of it is far more fascinating than fiction.
Agreed, the reality of human misperception is far beyond the understanding of most people, as in this mass sighting where people have also singled out exceptional witness statements that don't match facts in an attempt to say something else was going on. However these attempts fail, because if there was both a UFO and a satellite, they should have seen both. They only reported the UFO. At least 30 people saw this one:

"Top Ten" UFO Case - Yukon, Canada, 1996 - BUSTED!


UFO "Mothership" sighted from the Klondike Highway, Yukon Territory, Dec. 11, 1996.


You see the same thing going on in that case that you see going on here. People like Joel and others trying to single out witness statements and then claim those are inconsistent with the prosaic explanation. Of course some are, but that's human observation for you. If you think they saw something else in that Yukon case, then why didn't they see both the UFO and the satellite? Nobody can answer that, and we can only conclude that some witness statements deviate significantly from what actually happened.

We see these misperceptions time and time again and I can only figure that you and joel need to do more research on these incidents to get a better understanding of the range of human misperception. Here are more cases:

satobs.org...



posted on Jul, 10 2015 @ 02:05 PM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Jul, 10 2015 @ 02:13 PM
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a reply to: awestruck56

Synopsis? That is a whole book. What is "the real story?"

Thanks.



posted on Jul, 10 2015 @ 03:25 PM
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a reply to: Arbitrageur

Human misperception would then naturally also be applied to the military right?



posted on Jul, 10 2015 @ 05:55 PM
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originally posted by: SwampgasIsTheAnswer
a reply to: Arbitrageur

Human misperception would then naturally also be applied to the military right?
If you're referring to the pilot who said something along the lines of "I was there and I'm part of the flight that dropped the flares", there's not much opportunity for misperception on his part. But everybody on the ground who saw those lights and didn't know what they were looking at have plenty of opportunity for misperception. If that same officer who dropped the flares had been on the ground instead, trying to figure out what the lights were, then yes he's just as human as everybody else and if he doesn't know it's a plane dropping flares he might not recognize it as such. It's a different experience inside the cockpit, compared to the ground, though if he's more familiar with flares, as a ground observer he might stand a better chance of recognizing them as such than the average person.



posted on Jul, 16 2015 @ 05:42 PM
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a reply to: _BoneZ_

The real myth is that the Phoenix Lights were flares dropped by A-10's. During my TDY at Davis-Monthan AFB in 1970 from Hill AFB, UT, I continued my flight training at the U.S. Air Force Aero Club, which was located on the base and I was familiar with the Phoenix area as well and knew full well that flares cannot be seen from the Barry Goldwater Range from 60-70 miles away. The range has been in operation since the 1940's and there were many flare drops over the range since that time and yet, most Phoenix residents have never seen such flares dropped over the BGR. I have seen many flares during Vietnam and the Phoenix Lights do not look anything like the flares we used in Vietnam, which is another reason why Phoenix witnesses scoffed at the Air Force's flare drop demonstration many months later. In addition, Davis-Monthan AFB had a no-fly curfew in effect at 10:30 PM.



posted on Jul, 16 2015 @ 08:35 PM
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If the premise of this whole thread was pro UFO it would be in the "Hoax" section by now. Which is exactly where it deserves to be.

The moment you see any sort of video or article that bares the word "Debunked " the only accurate thing you can actually say is that. The author's ego is usually at least 5 times larger than their intellect. They have an agenda and a totally closed mind . They will believe any old cobblers no matter how ridiculous if it suits their agenda ,whilst ripping everyone else who disagrees with them a new one and ignoring every last piece of actual first hand witness testimony in favour of the opinion of someone who wasn't there and agrees with their cognitive bias.



posted on Jul, 17 2015 @ 05:41 AM
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a reply to: skyeagle409

Did you physically see the flares with your own eyes or only the video ?



posted on Jul, 17 2015 @ 09:40 AM
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originally posted by: skyeagle409
I was familiar with the Phoenix area as well and knew full well that flares cannot be seen from the Barry Goldwater Range from 60-70 miles away.
Are you saying because they aren't bright enough, or they are bright enough to be seen at that distance, but would be blocked by the mountain range? What model number of flares are you talking about, flares is a very general term and some flares can't be seen at 60 miles away and some flares can.


The range has been in operation since the 1940's and there were many flare drops over the range since that time and yet, most Phoenix residents have never seen such flares dropped over the BGR.
Even in this case there wasn't much clearance above the mountain tops when the flares were dropped, that's why they appeared to "wink out" when they disappeared behind the mountain range.

If they made 50 earlier flights at slightly lower altitudes, the mountains would have blocked the visibility, but that doesn't stop them from making another flight at a higher altitude where the mountains don't initially block the visibility.

The most disturbing part of your post to me is that there's no sign you even reviewed the evidence for flares in the opening post because you didn't respond to that evidence.



posted on Jul, 17 2015 @ 11:55 PM
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a reply to: wmd_2008

I have physically seen flares on hundreds occasions, especially during the TeT offensive in Vietnam.



posted on Jul, 18 2015 @ 12:50 AM
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a reply to: Arbitrageur

Are you saying because they aren't bright enough, or they are bright enough to be seen at that distance, but would be blocked by the mountain range? What model number of flares are you talking about, flares is a very general term and some flares can't be seen at 60 miles away and some flares can.


There is no way that flares can be seen from Phoenix if dropped over the BGR at 3000 feet. Secondly, the luminosity of the Phoenix Lights is not indicative of flare luminosity beyond 30 miles and additionally, flares do not remain in a straight line unlike the Phoenix Lights. Thirdly, the spacing between the Phoenix Lights is not indicative of flare spacing beyond 30 miles. Flares also generate a lot of smoke, which is illuminated by the flares themselves that can be seen for miles and yet, there is no indication of smoke trails regarding the Phoenix Lights. I find it interesting that the Air Force initially denied that any aircraft was airborne during the sightings and many people are also unaware that the Phoenix Lights were seen again in the early morning hours the next day, which also excuses the A-10's because they were grounded at Davis-Monthan AFB in the evening hours the day before.



Even in this case there wasn't much clearance above the mountain tops when the flares were dropped, that's why they appeared to "wink out" when they disappeared behind the mountain range.

If they made 50 earlier flights at slightly lower altitudes, the mountains would have blocked the visibility, but that doesn't stop them from making another flight at a higher altitude where the mountains don't initially block the visibility.

The most disturbing part of your post to me is that there's no sign you even reviewed the evidence for flares in the opening post because you didn't respond to that evidence.


I have already known that the Phoenix Lights were not flares, and that, from witnessing hundreds of flare drops in Vietnam. The characteristics for flares were simply not there in respect to the Phoenix Lights and that explains why many Phoenix residents have never seen flare drops over the BGR over a number of years. And, once again, another reason why Phoenix residents scoffed at the Air Force's attempt to explain away the Phoenix Lights as flares during its flare demonstration months later. After the Air Force's flare demonstration, Phoenix residents felt the Air Force insulted their intelligence because its flare drop demonstration proved beyond a shadow of a doubt the Phoenix Lights were not flares at all.



posted on Jul, 18 2015 @ 07:51 AM
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originally posted by: skyeagle409
a reply to: wmd_2008

I have physically seen flares on hundreds occasions, especially during the TeT offensive in Vietnam.
What part number were they and what part number were the flares dropped near Phoenix? As I said "flares" is a broad term and you've shown no indication you are aware of the different classes of flares, a mistake often made by people in this case who think they know what a flare is, but seem to be unaware there are other types of flares.



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