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(Part 1) The Phoenix Lights - Laying To Rest The Myth

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posted on Feb, 5 2015 @ 04:50 PM
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originally posted by: draknoir2

originally posted by: joelr

The only other thing like this was the Illinois police incident. And that was a triangle ship. The question is was it military?
If one has been shown to have been flying around Illinois why not Arizona?


For what it's worth, my father was a witness to one of those Southern IL triangles, as were a couple of very close friends.


What are their stories? Seems like there are a lot of witnesses who haven't publicly told their story.
But Mufon received like 700 calls that night.


There must be other days where A10s have flown in formation in that area. Considering we are talking a 20+ year span A10s have been flying around. Only this ONE time hundreds of people thought it was a triangle and then never before of since? Including the Governor Fife Symington? Again, it seems like either he's lying or he saw a triangle. This one-time misidentification of planes that happened to over 1000 people on one day and then never again doesn't seem likely.
edit on 5-2-2015 by joelr because: woops




posted on Feb, 5 2015 @ 04:58 PM
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Plus.....I have nothing else, this was an accidental double post.
edit on 5-2-2015 by joelr because: Double post. I suck.



posted on Feb, 5 2015 @ 10:48 PM
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originally posted by: joelr
Plus one man did video the triangle, the video is around. It's from a distance but is definitely fitting the description.
I think you're mistaken, but if you're not, please prove it. Where is the video?

The only video I've seen of the earlier event is the one the OP mentions which shows it's not a solid object and that the lights are arranged asymmetrically and change position relative to each other. They are roughly in a V-formation, but it's definitely not a triangle unless you mean the part the eyes and brain incorrectly "connect the dots" because that's the way our brains function, or in this case, malfunction.



posted on Feb, 6 2015 @ 07:16 AM
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originally posted by: joelr

originally posted by: draknoir2

originally posted by: joelr

The only other thing like this was the Illinois police incident. And that was a triangle ship. The question is was it military?
If one has been shown to have been flying around Illinois why not Arizona?


For what it's worth, my father was a witness to one of those Southern IL triangles, as were a couple of very close friends.


What are their stories? Seems like there are a lot of witnesses who haven't publicly told their story.
But Mufon received like 700 calls that night.


It wasn't the 2000 flap in Lebanon - this was about 10 years prior. Someone else just asked me about it, so I'll re-post my response:




Not much to tell... pop was a retired MP, and a cop for North Chicago. He was traveling downstate around 1990 and saw one of those silent black triangles. He didn't mention it to me until about fifteen years later. Guess he thought I'd laugh... he was a very grounded person and didn't want to be viewed otherwise. This is the second time he had surprised me with his open-mindedness. I have a couple of close friends who saw something very similar around the same time (late 80s/early 90s) and place (Southern IL). There definitely is/was something tooling around the skies of Southern IL. What exactly, I don't know. Being retired military (Air Force) and former defense contractor myself I lean towards man made, but I'm open to other possibilities, not necessarily conventional.

edit on 6-2-2015 by draknoir2 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 6 2015 @ 10:50 PM
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Too many witnesses have corroborated accounts of descriptions of a solid craft and details about the "lights" being nothing like airplanes in the sky. I quote lights because from what they described they were anything but conventional lights but some sort of plasma that was in light wells within a solid object. My problem is how can no one have at least a good picture or video? It still doesn't mean they didn't see anything.



posted on Feb, 6 2015 @ 11:37 PM
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a reply to: Arbitrageur



...but it's definitely not a triangle unless you mean the part the eyes and brain incorrectly "connect the dots" because that's the way our brains function, or in this case, malfunction.


Hi Arbitrageur,

You've made a really important point there, and I wanted to support it with a short video as well as a link that speaks to what you are describing.

The video comes from member karl 12's Proceedings of the CAIPAN Paris workshop on UAP/UFOs. thread. The CAIPAN GEIPAN UAP UFO workshop was held in France and brought members of many different scientific disciplines to bear on the UFO/UAP question. This guy studies anomalistic psychology and in the video he discusses the Bottom Up vs Top Down model of perception that you are referencing that allows folks to "fill-in-the-blanks" like that.



The whole video is very good but the stuff on perception and the brain starts at 9:20.

And then here is a link that describes the same.

Top-Down VS Bottom-Up Processing




posted on Feb, 7 2015 @ 03:17 AM
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_Bonez I appreciate the thread and the effort made in researching/composing.

I disagree but * & F for the effort.

Personally - I think a black project was going overhead that night (the big V) for a Show-N-Tell and to cover, the flare event was run. You know...pay no attention to the man behind the curtain



posted on Feb, 8 2015 @ 07:45 AM
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a reply to: Bybyots
Thanks, that was an interesting video but the guy's voice was so shaky, he sounded nervous, but he gave a good talk so I don't see why...though I heard some people fear public speaking more than they fear death.

I would give a simpler example in response to the people who say 1000 witnesses couldn't all be mistaken. First of all, I doubt that number and the accounts aren't all the same, but let's set that aside for a moment and assume there were 1000 witnesses and they did all have similar accounts of a triangle. We know there were others who saw planes. This is still totally unconvincing there was actually a triangle without any photographic evidence, why?

Give a book of optical illusions to those 1000 people and the vast majority of them will all have the same misperceptions, and I'd go a step further to say there could be something abnormal about the person if they don't have those misperceptions which the optical illusions book is intended to exploit. The optical illusion books are designed around the known problems with human perception, and because of our similarities they work on almost everybody. There are some illusions where even when you know it's not what we think it looks like, it still looks that way we misperceive it to be, because our neurology is wired that way.

You can also find examples right here on ATS, where people post video of three Chinese lanterns, and some people report it looks like the triangle UFO they saw. You pretty much have to do what Bonez did and analyze the changing distances of the lights to see they aren't fixed relative to each other, which we aren't good in doing real-time, so yes a lot of people can see a triangle where there isn't one. Our brains apparently have a tendency to draw a triangle between the three points of light, or it was about 5 (maybe 6) in a V-shape seen in the earlier Phoenix lights video. So yes I believe a lot of people thought they saw a triangle and I don't think they are lying. That doesn't convince me there was a triangle, and whoever is convinced by that needs to study more about human perception.

On the other hand, I haven't completely dismissed the possibility of a large craft being seen. It's possible, but eyewitness testimony alone of that is unconvincing in this case, especially when nobody has any images of it, not even the "large lights". The story about seeing the texture of the craft is interesting, but that's NOT what most people claim they saw, so that's not well-supported testimony.



posted on Feb, 8 2015 @ 08:26 AM
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a reply to: TXRabbit

I made a Part 2 to this thread which includes a map where some of the witnesses were and what they saw. You can check it out here:

The Phoenix Lights - Laying To Rest The Myth (Part 2 with Map)




posted on Feb, 8 2015 @ 12:05 PM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Feb, 17 2015 @ 08:02 PM
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originally posted by: Arbitrageur

originally posted by: joelr
Plus one man did video the triangle, the video is around. It's from a distance but is definitely fitting the description.
I think you're mistaken, but if you're not, please prove it. Where is the video?

The only video I've seen of the earlier event is the one the OP mentions which shows it's not a solid object and that the lights are arranged asymmetrically and change position relative to each other. They are roughly in a V-formation, but it's definitely not a triangle unless you mean the part the eyes and brain incorrectly "connect the dots" because that's the way our brains function, or in this case, malfunction.


I've seen that video where the lights don't match up. That was taken by mustach guy. I don't know his name, he's on one of the documentaries. It is an example of specious reasoning. They use it in the doc as an example of the triangle craft but the frikin lights don't stay in a solid formation?? They have witnesses talking about a solid geometrically perfectly shaped craft and then they say "here it is in a video" and they point out how the lights change their configuration, becoming a non-solid non-geometrically perfectly shaped craft.

Are we supposed to think it's the craft now morphing into other shapes? They don't say. It raises issues with the ufo idea.
I thing there is another guy, an older guy who videoed a triangle shape much higher up. It's in that video, Out of the Blue, or whatever it's called. The one by that guy, James Fox.

That could be planes also, I don't know?



posted on Feb, 17 2015 @ 11:18 PM
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a reply to: joelr
You're confabulating. I just re-watched the phoenix UFOs part of that documentary from just before 7 minutes to about 14 minutes and all I saw was video of the flares. The stuff about the giant V-shaped craft was all animations.



posted on Feb, 19 2015 @ 09:29 PM
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originally posted by: Arbitrageur
a reply to: joelr
You're confabulating. I just re-watched the phoenix UFOs part of that documentary from just before 7 minutes to about 14 minutes and all I saw was video of the flares. The stuff about the giant V-shaped craft was all animations.


I don't know then, I'll have to look around. I remember cameras interviewing an older man on his porch, he saw an unusual formation of triangle lights high in the sky and made a video of them from his porch.
At the time someone said that it was the only actual video of the triangle craft.
It was very high up and only lights were visible but they did remain constant.

Eventually I saw that other guy and his video, which is a lot closer but the lights don't stay stationary.
I thought it might be ufo hunters but I just watched that and it wasn't there. I'll figure it out....



posted on Feb, 19 2015 @ 10:04 PM
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a reply to: joelr
This show on discovery.com claims it shows the only known video of the earlier event though I don't know how long the original video is; they probably don't show the entire thing. I see no reason to rule out planes from that video:

www.discovery.com...

This youtube video also shows the earlier sighting at about 1 minute; it may be extracted from the above. It supports the OP claim that the lights aren't fixed relative to each other.

legendary phoenix lights, mass ufo sighting



posted on Feb, 23 2015 @ 11:16 PM
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originally posted by: Arbitrageur
a reply to: joelr
This show on discovery.com claims it shows the only known video of the earlier event though I don't know how long the original video is; they probably don't show the entire thing. I see no reason to rule out planes from that video:

www.discovery.com...

This youtube video also shows the earlier sighting at about 1 minute; it may be extracted from the above. It supports the OP claim that the lights aren't fixed relative to each other.

legendary phoenix lights, mass ufo sighting




I found something similar to what I was saying but it was not from the same day as the Phoenix lights. It was shot in 1992 from the same area.

Maybe this is what confused me? In this video "I Know What I Saw" also by James Fox:
www.youtube.com...

At 13:00 he says he found only one video of the earlier craft and it was the same video that is in question in this thread with the non-symmetrical lights taken by Terry Porter.
Then he quickly cuts to the video I mentioned above which looks more like a stable triangle from a distance.
At 1:55 there is another look at the video.

Fox does edit away from the Terry Porter video very quickly. He doesn't address the moving lights in that triangle at all.
In fact he says there is only ONE video of the actual craft and shows it for about 1 second before focusing on the earlier video? It's obvious to us who have seen longer versions of the video why he cuts away but if one can't deal with facts that work against your theory then your just making a bias and sensationalized waste of time documentary.

There are later witnesses interviewed who saw small orbs of light trailing the big triangle. One who saw it pass by the moon so he saw the shape of the ship very clear. He saw a small orb of light trailing the larger ship. Others saw some lights depart the triangle and sometimes return. So moving lights do not automatically mean airplanes.

I still thought I saw a similar video that emerged later that was similar to the stable triangle video above but was taken on the actual night of the PL?

In the video you embedded a witness claims to have seen 2 military aircraft take off and head toward one of the strange hovering objects ( hovering over the base) and when the planes came close it took off into the sky at a high rate of speed.
There are many reports of jets flying at the supposed triangle and the triangle speeding away.

There are some other, bigger problems with the airplane misidentification theory also. It's a reasonable hypothesis but it's far from airtight.



posted on Feb, 24 2015 @ 04:58 AM
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originally posted by: joelr
Maybe this is what confused me? ...

There are some other, bigger problems with the airplane misidentification theory also. It's a reasonable hypothesis but it's far from airtight.
Now that you have confirmed your own confabulation, I'd think you'd be more understanding that if it can happen to you, it can happen to others. It can happen to me and to any of us. I don't think you've fully appreciated this fact yet and until you do, you will continue to see the misidentification problems as bigger issues than they really are.



posted on Mar, 3 2015 @ 07:01 PM
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originally posted by: Arbitrageur

originally posted by: joelr
Maybe this is what confused me? ...

There are some other, bigger problems with the airplane misidentification theory also. It's a reasonable hypothesis but it's far from airtight.
Now that you have confirmed your own confabulation, I'd think you'd be more understanding that if it can happen to you, it can happen to others. It can happen to me and to any of us. I don't think you've fully appreciated this fact yet and until you do, you will continue to see the misidentification problems as bigger issues than they really are.



Right but some of the witnesses were very clear about what they saw. The sightings started in Las Vegas much earlier so there are daylight sightings also.

Another problem is how do 1000's of people report a giant ufo that is really planes on one day and then never again before or after?
The police dispatcher confirmed that she had 100's of calls and the Phoenix councilwoman reported over 1000 calls over the next few weeks regarding that one night. If they were planes there would be other reports of similar sightings. If planes could cause that illusion it would happen again. Planes did a flyover and dropped flares to show people what it looked like and no one claimed it looked like the triangle thing.

Another things is close to 100% of the reports say there were very large, red-orange lights, approx 15 feet in diameter on the underside of the thing and many reports of the lights being sunken back like in a well. They also say the lights projected no beam like a search light but was more like a glowing orb.
If you go with the plane hypothesis we at least need a plane with large red/orange globes on the underside. That doesn't exist. Planes are made to land without landing gear in case of emergency.



An airline pilot who saw the triangle confirms what many others have said - it took about 15 minutes to pass overhead and was far to slow to be any airplane. There are no varying reports on those details.

This really sounds like a military secret or something from somewhere else.
Again, the Illinois sighting by all those police officers suggests that it's likely there are triangle crafts flying around silently, slow and can accelerate quickly.



posted on Mar, 3 2015 @ 08:32 PM
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originally posted by: joelr
An airline pilot who saw the triangle confirms what many others have said - it took about 15 minutes to pass overhead and was far to slow to be any airplane. There are no varying reports on those details.
According to the most prolific UFO researcher pilots are the least reliable witnesses but nobody can tell the speed of an unknown object if they don't know the distance, and they don't.

The fact that you assign any credibility to his statement suggests you need to research why the somewhat reliable estimates of the distance and speed of KNOWN objects can be provided by trained observers, but no observer regardless of training can tell you the speed of an unknown object in the sky if they don't know the distance, and they don't know that either.

So I think you're leaping to unwarranted conclusions in the Phoenix case.

In the Illinois case, they have a picture and it doesn't appear they misinterpreted planes, so I'm not denying it happened in Illinois, I'm just saying citing the Illinois case doesn't convince me they saw anything similar in Phoenix.


Another problem is how do 1000's of people report a giant ufo that is really planes on one day and then never again before or after?

How can you not know why this wasn't just another night? The reason why so many people were out and looking up is stated in most documentaries on this topic. As for flares being reported as UFOs, it did happen before and after, planes too.



posted on Mar, 10 2015 @ 08:23 PM
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originally posted by: Arbitrageur

The fact that you assign any credibility to his statement suggests you need to research why the somewhat reliable estimates of the distance and speed of KNOWN objects can be provided by trained observers, but no observer regardless of training can tell you the speed of an unknown object in the sky if they don't know the distance, and they don't know that either.

So I think you're leaping to unwarranted conclusions in the Phoenix case.
v


No, no conclusions. I don't know what happened. But I lean towards the triangle ship theory.
I take his statement for what it's worth. It's not a statement of proof, it's just suggesting something odd did occur. The ship appeared very large , close and slow. If it were actually higher, which it could have been, it would be bigger and faster. It's still an odd thing to see even if his estimates were off. Giant red-ish lights do not point toward the airplane idea. It's sounding to me at least like an unknown government project.


originally posted by: ArbitrageurIn the Illinois case, they have a picture and it doesn't appear they misinterpreted planes, so I'm not denying it happened in Illinois, I'm just saying citing the Illinois case doesn't convince me they saw anything similar in Phoenix.


Uh huh. It helps me a little.


originally posted by: Arbitrageur

Another problem is how do 1000's of people report a giant ufo that is really planes on one day and then never again before or after?

How can you not know why this wasn't just another night? The reason why so many people were out and looking up is stated in most documentaries on this topic. As for flares being reported as UFOs, it did happen before and after, planes too.


I know there was a comet passing by. If planes in formation can cause that illusion it still should happen often. If they fly over those or nearby suburbs then that illusion would happen from time to time. It's nice all year there isn't it? People are often outside. The Governor saw it from a local park as did an entire little league team and all the attending parents. They were not looking for comets.
But there are still the other sightings from highway areas, inside cars and trucks, in a phone booth, not comet related.

I know flares are sometimes mistaken for UFO's but they are reported as "orb" sightings which are less spectacular.
I even had one of those recently, I'm trying to find out what drones look like up in the sky at night and if it's possible that one would see a drone in a small suburb of Boston?



posted on Mar, 11 2015 @ 12:09 AM
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a reply to: _BoneZ_

Nice work OP S&F'd



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