lawmakers declare ‘all-out assault’ on marriage for same-sex and atheist couples in Oklahoma

a reply to: Punisher75

Well, I don't know if I'd say "evil christians" but they are certainly mean spirited A-holes anyway. Especially when you consider Elton's post about that ol' bitty Sally Kern and her dedication to marginalize Gays.

Now you may want to compare Atheists or whoever and say they do the same thing against Christians but I really don't see that as being honest. Christians are actively trying to keep certain members of society from being included in activities that everyone else get's to take part in if they choose. While the Atheists and Gay's are just trying to make sure that everyone does in fact have that choice. They aren't trying to kick out the Christians from anything. That's the main difference here.

Sounds like she might be some what of a bigot too. Most likely a liar as well.



I'm sure that's exactly what some student told her.

a reply to: mOjOm
Sure they do. Here is one example.

21stcenturywire.com...

So these Christians are not allowed to express themselves according to their wishes?
Of course you don't think that you would be a bigot if you did, however this group of Atheist feel that way.

a reply to: Punisher75

Christians are still free to express themselves all they want just not from within or using Public Funding and Government. Why should public funds go to promote Christian Doctrine??? That's what church is for and they make plenty of money to pay for signs and stone monuments on their own property.

Plus, fighting to remove monuments I think is a little different than stopping whole classes of people from getting Married, Shopping where everyone else shops, etc. The Christian Right may say "We're being silenced" or "Persecuted" because they can't yell their BS in everyone's face anymore but that is far from being "silenced".

After all if they were being silenced we wouldn't have to keep hearing them complain every single day about the same issues. The only thing they are losing is their ability to invade the lives of others with their Religious Bigotry which they never should have been allowed to do in the first place.

That's how it seems to me anyway.

a reply to: mOjOm

1.) Who said that the Christian monument was paid for with tax dollars?

2.) Why would a group from New Jersey find it in their best interest to go to Florida to make their statement?

3.) Why would they demand the Christian Monument be taken down and theirs erected?

Sorry you hate Christians so much, and that you think its okay to silence them. I understand you hate our bigotry so much, really we should be silenced. I understand now that freedom of expression really is only allowable to certain types of people, that of course Christians are not allowed to bring our beliefs be they be moral or cultural to the discussion table.
After all we might use that freedom of expression to express ourselves! Of course that would be a wholly different type of BS yelled in our faces than say the ridicule and hatred spewed on virtually every network or cable television or radio program.

Thats how it seems to me anyway.

originally posted by: Punisher75

1.) Who said that the Christian monument was paid for with tax dollars?

That's usually where the funding for that stuff comes from, taxes.

2.) Why would a group from New Jersey find it in their best interest to go to Florida to make their statement?

Most likely just because they are being dicks about it. They can push too far sometimes I know that. But I still think it's far less than the push the other way. But that's just my opinion.

3.) Why would they demand the Christian Monument be taken down and theirs erected?

See above. I don't support that either. I don't think there should be any monument celebrating one class of group over another. In fact, I personally don't care who puts up what myself. I don't care if people want voodoo monuments up. I was really just explaining why some activists go do it. I think it's all pointless with everything else going on.

Sorry you hate Christians so much, and that you think its okay to silence them. I understand you hate our bigotry so much, really we should be silenced. I understand now that freedom of expression really is only allowable to certain types of people, that of course Christians are not allowed to bring our beliefs be they be moral or cultural to the discussion table.
After all we might use that freedom of expression to express ourselves! Of course that would be a wholly different type of BS yelled in our faces than say the ridicule and hatred spewed on virtually every network or cable television or radio program.

Thats how it seems to me anyway.

Not at all and I just said that in the last post. I said just the opposite about them being Silenced. However, when it comes to their bigotry it would be nice if they would ease up on it a bit, yeah. However, I fully believe in Free Speech and they have the right to say what they want. But if it's a bunch of BS and hate that they speak then they are asking for others to respond with equally negative speech. IMO, everyone should calm down and work it out like adults, but I'm not the one getting in the middle of everyone else's business either.

a reply to: [post=18919139]mOjOm[/post
I agree people should not be Bigots, Self Identified as Christian or otherwise.
I not only wish that People who "self identify" as Christian, would not be bigots I wish those who are atheist would stop being bigots as well.
But here is the rub...
in order to be a Bigot one cannot truthfully be a Christian, as the moral standard as taught by Christ and the Apostles will not allow it. (Justification by faith through grace and not by works least any man should boast, and all that)

However there is nothing to keep a person from truthfully being an atheist and being a Bigot at the same time. The reason for this is in order to be a Christian you have to believe in Justification By faith through grace, in order to be an atheist you simply don't have to believe in the existence of God.

So I suppose what has me Dorked is all the talk about Christians being Bigots, without any consideration to what makes someone a Christian.

People don't get to just call themselves Christian, and it be a truthful claim, any more than I can self identify as a pro basketball player and it be true just cause I said so.
If that were the case I would just self identify myself as a millionaire and be done with working for a living.

a reply to: Punisher75

I agree that everyone should stop being so damn hateful to each other regardless of what side they're on. As for who is or isn't a Christian that's a difficult one. Granted I wouldn't call the haters good Christians by any means but if that is how they self identify I don't bother trying to correct them since I'm not even part of the club. I know that must piss off the decent, loving Christians out there when these people take their title and go do bad stuff with it. That's the problem with labeling stuff. However, they fully believe they are the Christians and accuse the others as not being true. So I don't bother to try and figure out who's who. If you choose the label then that's how I'll address you.

Many of these people actually have ministries and huge Christian followings too so that doesn't exactly help the over all name either. From an outside POV and with the help of the media there does seem to be a lot of bigots out there, many of which seem to always have some Religious Belief behind their motives. There seems to be a problem, a kind of internal rot that is within the big name religions today. They all seem to be divided within their own organizations that fight with each other as well as other Religions and with the Non-Religious as well. That is what I see as the major problem. Just a bunch of fighting all around from every direction and it is effecting everyone, even those who don't even wish to be involved.

a reply to: mOjOm
Ah well the good news we have come to a place where we can agree this is a good thing. Now you and I can stop fighting.

a reply to: Punisher75

I'm glad to hear that!!

Perhaps if we lead by example the rest of these haters will follow.

I don't see how anyone could think it's even remotely constitutional to try to block whole classes of people from being able to marry?

And then be mad that the courts did their job correctly for once and threw out a completely unconstitutional law.

More anti Christian theatrics. Sometimes you've gotta wonder why stories like this pop up and instead of garnering hate for the one person involved, garner hate for a whole group of people. Some of you guys have fell for this hook, line and sinker.

Especially the people saying things along the lines of 'You should just remove all religious people from power' What a foolish blanket statement. Furthermore there are many fallacies in the gay marriage argument but where would I even begin? And would it even be worth it?

No it most likely wouldn't, at least not on this site where fake liberals thrive like weeds.

a reply to: TechUnique

Please go into the fallacies of gay marriage, unless you don't want the healthy debate about it.

a reply to: TechUnique
The entire problem with this issue, is the argument in itself. Those against it, tend to be under the mistaken belief that we all should follow the same belief, and those who do not should not expect fair and equal treatment under the eyes of the law. And more often the very laws that follow along a religious lines, used to target one group or another, comes back and bites them on the proverbial butt. And yet, when they are asked in a court of law, they use the same arguments time and time again, and most of the time, the judges tend to see the holes in the arguments, asking for more legal precedents and there really is no legal precedent.

On the other hand, the argument is about civil rights, the demand for fair and equal treatment under the law, that the government treat and give everyone the same opportunity and treatment, and they often cite both precedent and legal statute, along with case and dates on such.

If you believe that there is no reason for such, then by all means please provide it.

However, you do bring up a valid point, should a politician have the same right as everyone. That I agree too. However, in this case, where the politicians are using the reasoning of religion as an excuse and is deeply tied up with a religion, it leads to ask if there is an abuse of authority or a conflict of interest. Consider that one of the main persons that is leading this charge, her husband is involved in a baptist church, a denomination that is highly against the LGBT community, that would see said individuals thrown in prison for just being born. Kind of makes you wonder, if she is doing this cause it is the right thing to do, or if she is listening to the whispers of the pulpit.

a reply to: Sremmos80

Christian Marriage is Christian Marriage. The state turned it into a commodity and wants to go AGAINST Christian rules in order to enforce public opinion into the Christian domain. If Marriage is supposed to be between a man and a woman, a Christian man and a woman at that, then the church should have every right to keep it that way.

The same goes for a pastor that wants to marry a gay couple. The law shouldn't stop it happening OR not happening. It should be down to the individual circumstances, who is ordaining the marriage and who is getting married.

This is fake liberalism. 'Everyone should be free to do everything, unless you are refusing to do something for someone, in which case you will be forced to do so, even if it goes against your personal beliefs' Again, this is fake liberalism.

I fail to see how people get so wrapped up in the hysteria surrounding Gay marriage. Do gays NEED to get married and have the title of marriage in order to live together the same as a married couple do?

Why can't you have a different name for Gay marriage that doesn't blaspheme God? You do realize that marrying a gay couple in a Christian church is blasphemy right?

a reply to: sdcigarpig

No, we shouldn't all have to follow the same belief. I think that, and I am against Gay marriage. Isn't forcing a church to marry a Gay couple, in turn, forcing them to follow the same beliefs as Gay people?

Yes it is. But people fail to see that because no one cares about Christian rights. (They really don't, you can pretend all you like)

Clear anti-christian agenda.

a reply to: TechUnique

Christian Marriage is Christian Marriage. The state turned it into a commodity and wants to go AGAINST Christian rules in order to enforce public opinion into the Christian domain.

SO blame the state, not the gays. Nobody is going to force pastors to marry gays in churches. Besides there are plenty of actual christian churches, who are willing to do so.

There's not a single piece of legislation ever presented that would make it so that churches HAD to perform marriages between same sex couples. All that's gone on is the whether or not the STATE provides a marriage license, the benefits contained within that license, and whether or not all stats have to recognize it.

The idea is the RIGHTS provided to those who can get married. The list is over 1000 long.

Why can't you have a different name for Gay marriage that doesn't blaspheme God? You do realize that marrying a gay couple in a Christian church is blasphemy right?

Because that's just your opinion. And the minority has a right to access the same service as the majority do.

Look, if it weren't for the fact that marriage provides special status to people, along with special privileges, than I would be right there with you. There's be NO need to have gays get married, other than to make their feelings not hurt.

Which would be a damn stupid idea.

As it stands though, the state is actively discriminating, using sexual orientation to prevent people from actively participating in a government program.

That's unconstitutional, and wrong morally speaking. The latter is less important than the former.

~Tenth

You can disagree with the opinion all you want but at the end of the day it says all of this in the new testament. You can disagree that the new testament is Gods word if you want to, you are more than free to do so. It doesn't mean that you are right though.

a reply to: tothetenthpower

So you agree that an alternative solution could be creating another 'Equal status' in the eyes of the state that gives gay couples all the same rights legally but with a different title?

That would be the best solution in my opinion but would be interested in what you have to say. I appreciate your fair response as well.

Edit to add: Churches have been as good as forced to marry gay couples already. A massive lawsuit and threat of bankruptcy is pretty close to forcing someone wouldn't you agree?

originally posted by: Quantum_Squirrel
why does it have to be marriage? why not civil partnerships , state marriage's etc ...

Because that is NOT equal.
You cannot claim something is equal, when it's clearly not in its very title. If you distinguish people between being in a "civil union" as opposed to a "marriage" that is obviously not equality, because there is a distinction between the two.

And here's a little fact that will blow the minds of all the "traditional" marriage preachers here... no religion owns marriage. Christians DO NOT get to call the shots on this, and the fact that they've believed that can for so long is a massive delusion.

Marriage existed before Christianity. Every faith, every society, every group of Humans as far back as we can trace has had some form of commitment ceremony - marriage - and to call one Christian version of it "traditional" is the most brain-dulling idiocy I have ever heard.

What makes Christians think they have the imagined right to selectively pick a period of Human history, according to their personal religious cult, and dictate that this specific thing is "traditional"? Why aren't Native American marriage ceremonies considered traditional? Why not Pagan marriages? Why not the marriage ceremonies of other faiths and other cultures before and after the height of Christian rule?

And FYI, Native Americans, Pagans, and even the CATHOLIC FAITH recognized same sex marriage.

Once again, let me make the factual point that Christians, Conservatives, Republicans and Fascists like to ignore - NO group owns a patent on marriage, and no group ever will. You do not own it, you do not have the right to control it, you do not have any authority over any other Human on this planet.