Public University Faces Backlash Over ‘Problem Of Whiteness’ Course

This is why I don't like the idea of free education.
way to much of this "educating" going on.

Anybody who thinks there is anything wrong with this course or it's title, is plainly nuts.

Besides, we couldn't possibly know one way or another unless we saw the syllabus.

a reply to: SonOfThor

Firstly, I never called your education fraudulent... I said the comparison was.

You're ignorance of the fact that genocide is made possible by an evolution and legitimization of hate rhetoric is what is disgraceful. Ignorance and silence in the face of such BS is what makes something like Nazism possible.

You've just said my ignorance is what makes Nazism possible...
That's ad hominem.




So far I've been told to "read between the lines" & that it's just "word play" to manipulate...


Forgive me if I think that's bulls# & perceived persecution.

No, I don't see the supremacy.

a reply to: ladyinwaiting

Anybody who thinks there is anything wrong with this course or it's title, is plainly nuts.

Not nuts at all. Rational.
If it were just this course, it would be different.
.....been aware of this ish for a long time. It's one piece of a much larger agenda.

a reply to: tothetenthpower

Tenth - the idea of slippery slopes is tricky, i.e. I would counter that the example provided of same-sex couples leading to people marrying cars or monkeys, etc. lacks the logic of something like gun registration leading to confiscation, or more aptly in this case, viewing race issues of history through the lens of a "white problem" may lead people to assume that the majority of race issues are due to white people. I think it would be interesting for everyone participating in this discussion to actually read some of the texts of this course (or at least jog through them) and maybe find some lectures online perhaps? Have you read or listened in on any of the actual course content? I ask because it seems like you are basing your knowledge of the course based on a paragraph description.

Universities are supposed to be a place where common thought is challenged and that all manner of topics be investigated, studied and looked at.

I would agree, but add that "Universities are ideally supposed to be a place where common though is challenged..."

Fact is, in my experience (and I bet many people would concur) - Universities are either money pits for people who think a degree is the end all be all to success, and / or institutions that espouse a Liberal agenda.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

I didn't say your ignorance causes Nazism, I think you mis-read my statement. I said your ignorance of the historically accepted fact that things like hate when legitimized with rhetoric can open the door for genocide is a disgrace.

What do you think made Nazism possible, other than ignorance and silence? If people stayed active and challenged the intellectual rhetoric of hate, and spoke up against the institutionalized actions taken as a physical manifestation of this rhetoric that would have helped fight the rise of Nazism. (Granted - other socio-economic factors of course factor in).

I can't perceive something for you or anyone else. But, I think this discussion would be better served after we shed some more light on the detailed content of the course.

As a side note - I miss academia. Working in contract law doesn't lead to the same intellectual arguments as this. Even if we have disagreements and mis-understandings I appreciate the dialogue.

originally posted by: Jamie1
Arizona St. University now offers a course called "The Problem of Whiteness."

Student James Malone raises this issue:

Student James Malone told Campus Reform that such a course “shows the significant double standard of higher education institutions,” noting that the school “would never allow a class talking about the problem of blackness.”

Source

Simple question:

Is it racist to offer a course called "The Problem of Whiteness?"

Would it be racist if the course was called, "The Problem of Blackness?"

Would you take out a student loan so you could take this course?

I agree that there is an emergent double standard across the US regarding race.

On a regular basis now, people are making statements, courses are being offered, and articles are being penned that if they were about any other race, people would call out racism and it would be inappropriate.

I was just thinking about this today. For example, someone penned an article recently "Why I hate White Belly Dancers," ostensibly because it is cultural appropriation of a middle eastern practice. If someone wrote a published article entitled "Why I hate Black Opera singers," because "how dare Black people dare to practice European arts," there would be vast outrage and calls of racism. The writers would be considered to be similar to the KKK or some backwoods racist.

a reply to: SonOfThor

Have you read or listened in on any of the actual course content? I ask because it seems like you are basing your knowledge of the course based on a paragraph description.

As opposed to those who are outraged at the Title of the course?

Seems like I'm making a decision, or an opinion, based on more information than those who are outraged.

I would agree, but add that "Universities are ideally supposed to be a place where common though is challenged..."

It's no an ideal, it's what universities were intended to do.

Universities are either money pits for people who think a degree is the end all be all to success, and / or institutions that espouse a Liberal agenda.

Well see, now you're just showing a little bias. Not all universities are Liberal. In fact I would imagine that it's evenly split across the political spectrum.

Now I 100% agree it's all about the dollars these days though.

~Tenth

The writers would be considered to be similar to the KKK or some backwoods racist

Peeps, this is ARIZONA. They are going to do anything BUT bash white people. lol. When have you ever known Arizona-ites to bash the great white majority who never made a mistake in the course of history? lol.

Get a grip. It's not what you think it is. Common sense dictates............ It's a "catchy" title to get students to sign up. Follow the money.

Now, if this were an all-ethnic college, and they had a course like that, then maybe I would give pause......

originally posted by: tothetenthpower
From your source:

The university explained Bebout’s class “uses literature and rhetoric to look at how stories shape people’s understanding and experiences of race” while encouraging “students to examine how people talk about – or avoid talking about – race in the contemporary United States.”

Students can expect to “draw on history, literature, speeches and cultural changes – from scholarly texts to humor,” the statement continued, noting the class “is designed to empower students to confront the difficult and often thorny issues that surround us today and reach thoughtful conclusions rather than display gut reactions.”

So that's the course. The name of it, poorly chosen mind you, really doesn't have much to do with it.

As always, people find things of no consequence to be outraged about, just so they can bring up race in a conversation.

~Tenth

You have a point in there, but what the post is partly about is would it be acceptable if there was a course entitled something similar for another race?

I work in social justice, but I have become increasingly disturbed by an emergent double standard.

originally posted by: ladyinwaiting

The writers would be considered to be similar to the KKK or some backwoods racist

Peeps, this is ARIZONA. They are going to do anything BUT bash white people. lol. When have you ever known Arizona-ites to bash the great white majority who never made a mistake in the course of history? lol.

Get a grip. It's not what you think it is. Common sense dictates............ It's a "catchy" title to get students to sign up. Follow the money.

Now, if this were an all-ethnic college, and they had a course like that, then maybe I would give pause......

This is false regarding your implication that ARizona is all right-wing whities. Generally yes. Universities, no. I am from California and went to BOTH University of Arizona AND Arizona State University. There are PLENTY of very left wing and or liberal professors, students, research centers, etc. In fact, I myself worked in a very liberal activist research institute at the UoA, one that was probably 20% white.

a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

It's not a double standard. It's a societal norm that was created by some group of people, treating other groups of people like garbage.

For a very long time. So I see why, people would be more offended at a course titled:

"The problem with Blackness"

vs

"The problem with Whiteness"

It is technically, a double standard, but White people haven't really suffered any oppression, historically, on the level of minorities. It's part of the reason we called them 'minorities' in the first place, cause we were sorta trying to actively remove them all from the Earth at some point or another.

At the very least, turn them into our servants, either physically, mentally, culturally, economically, religiously etc..

And I also understand white people, being a little worried and even apprehensive about that kind of talk, because, let's face it, White people will be the minority in a lot of places, very quickly.

Nobody wants to think about what would happen if the it suddenly because Whites who were oppressed in all those ways by other minorities, or the newly formed majority.

And I'd be worried too, if I actually thought that there was some kind of popular, activist movement who sought to destroy whites.

But there isn't.

So all of this is mostly just 'reverse racism' talk, again, for faux outrage, by people who WANT to actively put race in anything and everything they do.

~Tenth

originally posted by: ladyinwaiting
Anybody who thinks there is anything wrong with this course or it's title, is plainly nuts.

Besides, we couldn't possibly know one way or another unless we saw the syllabus.

I think you may not be thinking about a greater point.

Many of us are becoming increasingly frustrated by an emergent double standard.

As I noted in a previous post, increasingly people are saying things or penning articles/titles that if the same were done for a minority group, would be considered racist or unacceptable. But it's magically okay if it's White people.

You see, I am an ally, and work in social justice, but am getting tired of the very things we are bringing up here.

Now, you are right, we could and should wait until we see the syllabus and so on. But, the course title is in poor taste and could be taken offensively, even if the course material is very objective and well-done.

a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

Sigh. If anything, the "flavor" of this course is going to be "the problem with white people is that they are permitting other cultures to infiltrate our country and try to wipe us out.". Probably will have an eye cast towards Hispanics.

Mark my words.

Oh, yeah, you're right. It's wrong to designate an entire state as one thing or another...........Oopsie, as Rick Perry might say. : )

originally posted by: tothetenthpower
a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

It's not a double standard. It's a societal norm that was created by some group of people, treating other groups of people like garbage.

For a very long time. So I see why, people would be more offended at a course titled:

"The problem with Blackness"

vs

"The problem with Whiteness"

It is technically, a double standard, but White people haven't really suffered any oppression, historically, on the level of minorities. It's part of the reason we called them 'minorities' in the first place, cause we were sorta trying to actively remove them all from the Earth at some point or another.

At the very least, turn them into our servants, either physically, mentally, culturally, economically, religiously etc..

And I also understand white people, being a little worried and even apprehensive about that kind of talk, because, let's face it, White people will be the minority in a lot of places, very quickly.

Nobody wants to think about what would happen if the it suddenly because Whites who were oppressed in all those ways by other minorities, or the newly formed majority.

And I'd be worried too, if I actually thought that there was some kind of popular, activist movement who sought to destroy whites.

But there isn't.

So all of this is mostly just 'reverse racism' talk, again, for faux outrage, by people who WANT to actively put race in anything and everything they do.

~Tenth

Thanks for the reply, but I am going to have to offer a rebuttal.

First, yes, there has been historical oppression leveled at various minority groups in this country for several centuries, an impact that is still felt in a variety of ways.

Second, there isn't "reverse racism," there is just racism.

Third, you are making a classic and very old diversion. I have seen this 100 times now. Someone says "Racism isn't possible against White people" OR a white person says "I experienced prejudice from someone else clearly based on race." Then, instead of people like you staying on topic and first addressing that issue, you immediately jump to "Oh yeah well the system of power isn't leveled at whites in this country so we don't want to hear it. Therefore, racism only is possible against minorities."

It is actually manipulative to refuse to discuss instances of hatred towards White people and consistently just smash it down with "oh yeah, but this group over here has been oppressed far more and has the system against it." While the point in quotations is true, it doesn't mean that can be used to stop all conversations about OTHER issues and harm.

I will offer you a parallel that demonstrates my point, a very very rough one so forgive me. Women too have been oppressed by the system and patriarchy for many centuries. While there have been gains, there are still implicit biases against them, the glass ceiling, and they experience a greater proportion of sexual and domestic violence. All truths. HOWEVER, it is factual that domestic and sexual violence in reverse, i.e. female to male, is very real and ALSO a problem. It's far less in frequency, but well established.

Men don't have the system stacked against them. Women do. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean that the times sexual violence is targeted towards men isn't an important issue nor that we can't discuss and deal with it because "women have the system stacked against them and are more oppressed." The justice system most definitely is recognizing that we can't just ignore it. Basically, people like you are making this argument about reverse racism.

I suggest you look at what I've just said and think on that.

Fourth, you just fell into another trap therein. Google definitions of "racism." One is institutional racism, which you and those who deny any "reverse racism" keep attempting to claim is the only one. Factually, it is not. Racism can also be and is defined to be interpersonal or any group or person showing prejudice against others based on race. Look it up.

Fifth, you and others make these binary arguments in order to justify and not deal with topics like these such as double standards.

While claiming to be against stereotyping, prejudice, hatred, essentialism, based on race, magically people like you turn a blind eye as soon as someone does that towards Whites.

It's hypocrisy. Either it is wrong or it is not.

You see, I am an ally. I have worked in social justice for 10 years. I do it professionally. I am very well versed in the historical issues of oppression, racism, poverty, etc.

That doesn't mean that the job description of being an "ally" should include putting up with hateful or ignorant statements from a minority person or organization. This does happen sometimes.

Sixth, when we refuse to look at the universal psychological roots of racism and oppression, we fail to guard against it happening in the future. Just like, the Jews were oppressed for centuries in Europe. Now, many of us feel that SOME Jews are oppressing Palestinians in Israel.

originally posted by: ladyinwaiting
a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

Sigh. If anything, the "flavor" of this course is going to be "the problem with white people is that they are permitting other cultures to infiltrate our country and try to wipe us out.". Probably will have an eye cast towards Hispanics.

Mark my words.

Oh, yeah, you're right. It's wrong to designate an entire state as one thing or another...........Oopsie, as Rick Perry might say. : )

It's possible, but I am telling you from first hand experience there are very much the opposite of what you think in certain departments there.

For example, there are entire departments that are African American Studies, Womens Studies, Chicano Studies, Native American Studies, that are not at all on the right wing side of things. I've taken classes within some of those.

a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

Okay. Can you give an idea of what you think they might be teaching in this course?

a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

Second, there isn't "reverse racism," there is just racism.

Agreed, I was just using their word.

Therefore, racism only is possible against minorities."

Nope, that's not what I said. Of course, ANYBODY can be a racist, against ANY other color or race. It's just silly to think otherwise.

It's weather or not it's Racism, or perceived racism.

Fifth, you and others make these binary arguments in order to justify and not deal with topics like these such as double standards.

No. These arguments are used to show how White People, just perceive themselves as being the victims of Racism, when in fact, they are not.

While claiming to be against stereotyping, prejudice, hatred, essentialism, based on race, magically people like you turn a blind eye as soon as someone does that towards Whites.

No I don't. The vast majority of white people will never actually encounter such things because they are white. Not in any serious fashion anyway. It does happen. Just not nearly as often as it does to minorities.

Sixth, when we refuse to look at the universal psychological roots of racism and oppression, we fail to guard against it happening in the future.

Correct, but White people will NEVER face that kind of institutionalized racism or prejudice. Either because it doesn't really exist on that level, or people like you and me will keep it from happening, by discussing it and bringing these ideas to the fore front.

Noam Chomsky once said that the only way to kill racism, is to stop participating in it. If people want to cry racism and foul over the name of a university course then by all means go ahead, but it's a pretty big moot point in comparison to other things we could be talking about.

~Tenth

originally posted by: ladyinwaiting
a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

Okay. Can you give an idea of what you think they might be teaching in this course?

Indeed...a little effort will take one to summations of the texts involved in the course and allow one an educated opinion. But...it's easier to join in with the ditto-heads.

originally posted by: ladyinwaiting
a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

Okay. Can you give an idea of what you think they might be teaching in this course?

I'm not sure exactly what it is, but I'm pretty sure I could guess based on my knowledge of the social justice world. I was, however, just replying to your view that more liberal courses and people don't exist there in Arizona.