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The forgotten legacy of reincarnation in early christianity

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posted on Jan, 18 2015 @ 10:03 PM
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a reply to: kennyb72




I would be happy to answer a few questions at the risk of presenting myself as some sort of guru, as I am certainly not that. I can however provide some insight into what I can only describe as the most fascinating, compelling explanation of the reality of life I have ever studied, as explained by Pythagoras and passed down though various schools and confirmed by individuals who have achieved causal consciousness.



I wouldn't know where to begin, what question to ask. But, I would love to hear/read your slant on Pythagorean reincarnation. I know that Pythagoras' greatest wish was to be free of the amnesia (from the trauma) of death and remember.




posted on Jan, 18 2015 @ 10:12 PM
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a reply to: windword


Emperor Justinian and his wife Theodora's — not to be confused with the Catholic saint with the same name.

Definitely not to be confused. She was, I believe, the one who complained that Nature had not provided the human body with a large enough number of pleasure-related orifices.

On topic, I believe Pythagoreans believed in reincarnation, and I'm sure a few other sects did too. No doubt some Christians sects were among the latter. And we must not forget that the fundamental Christiam mystery is one of a return from death to life.



posted on Jan, 18 2015 @ 10:14 PM
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Matthew 11:7–14


“I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way before you.” I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it. For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John. And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come.’”


Jesus identified John the Baptist as Elijah, John the Baptist rejected that identification. Christians have to reconcile these two teachings, lol good luck.



posted on Jan, 18 2015 @ 10:22 PM
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a reply to: TerryMcGuire


Slavery is more easily enforced under a "one life only" belief system.

On the contrary. Belief in rebirth, especially when combined with belief in karma, helps people reconcile themselve to almost unbearable situations. I live surrounded by Buddhists, and both the literature and popular culture here are saturated by the idea that patiently bearing the sufferings of this life will cause one to be re-born into better circumstances.

Christianity, as Nietzsche liked to say, is a slave religion. History bears him out: it seems that it was Middle Eastern slaves, mostly Greek speakers, who were largely responsible for spreading the faith throughout the Roman Empire. Perhaps belief in Earthly reincarnation was part of the package for many early Christians.

An eternity in Paradise is evidently incentive enough for martyrdom, though.


edit on 19/1/15 by Astyanax because: 72 virgins prove me right.



posted on Jan, 18 2015 @ 10:27 PM
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a reply to: Specimen


There is one movie called "Cloud Atlas" and tries to go into the ideas of reincarnation, but it kind of weak in its attempt I find, since only one story works along side with the other.

It isn't weak. You didn't understand it, and for that you are hardly to be blamed, since the subject is so esoteric.

Cloud Atlas is not about reincarntion. It is about the much more subtle Buddhist concept of rebirth. In Buddhism, there are no souls. What is transferred from body to body is nothing much more than a viewpoint — a consciousness that apprehends the world. It is subtly affected by previous life experiences (called skandhas) but these vestiges do not add up to anything remotely resembling a personality or a soul.


edit on 19/1/15 by Astyanax because: 'e's so teric.



posted on Jan, 18 2015 @ 11:39 PM
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We start out as energies within cosmic dust, then separate into individuals first within solidified rocks.
Why do you pick up different stones and feel different energies, some more pleasing to you than others?
a reply to: MKMoniker


Um, and I don't use 'um' very often-in fact you just took my 'um' virginity-

is it because marijuana is a thousand times stronger?

So, just maybe... the rock with the ascetic soul trapped inside, or harboring the soul, is really on a higher path...than the 'stoned gerbils', with the Bic lighters, zombie kush, and opposing thumbs?

Am I on the right path?



# 350



edit on 18-1-2015 by TheWhiteKnight because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 19 2015 @ 12:24 AM
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a reply to: windword



I wouldn't know where to begin, what question to ask. But, I would love to hear/read your slant on Pythagorean reincarnation. I know that Pythagoras' greatest wish was to be free of the amnesia (from the trauma) of death and remember.


From all accounts Pythagorus was a truly remarkable man and has achieved his wish. His consciousness has expanded into the consciousness of a collective being and is a member of the planetary hierarchy, one of a large number of advanced entities that have a direct influence on the functioning of our physical plane.

Pythagorus was arguably the first scientist as we would classify a man of his intellect today. He studied in the Gnostic mystery schools, Ancient Egyptian history, - Thoth/Hermes, The Hindu Brahman (Vedic) texts, Chaldean Kabbalah and other paths through which the ancient knowledge was disseminated. The original source being tens of thousands of years old.

Through his studies he attained a very complete understanding of the ancient knowledge which predated all of the sources mentioned, through his understanding he was able to construct an enumerated mental system that was accessible by the Western mind. For the first time he was able to explain what up to then was obfuscated in symbology.

It is a little difficult to explain reincarnation without understanding exactly what we are. I can explain that in another post. Our journey is one of consciousness evolution.

The Monad our individual self, started its existence as consciousness potential, but over an unfathomable amount of time it manifested into the physical world on it's journey back to the source, experiencing a very limited existence in the mineral and vegetable Kingdoms and progressing though the animal and into the human kingdom.

The purpose of our lives on the physical plane is to establish our individual identity. For the first and last time in our existence we are isolated from our collective consciousness. If we did not achieve our individuality, our consciousness would be washed away in the sea of universal consciousness and we would not be able to achieve what is expected of us and be able to function as an individual consciousness as part of a collective.

Hylozoics explains that we endure tens of thousands of lives,with the goal of mastering a particular aspect of our spiritual growth. We progress through a number of categories of life until we achieve a level of advancement that an individual consciousness no longer serves any purpose and the expansion into a collective is possible.

Most people are aware of the Astral planes as they have become a popular concepts in new age teachings. These planes are more accurately described in Hindu teachings but as the language is unfamiliar to us, Pythagorus has simplified them into a numerical system and has used western terminology to elucidate them.

The immediate plane beyond the physical is called The Emotional world - World of Illusions - Maya, and describes how, when our physical body dies, our consciousness shifts focus out of the physical into Maya. Here we create our own existence based on our lives, devotions, obsessions or delusions. There are seven distinct sub planes through which we travel, for some, the seventh plane (the most physical of all the illusory planes) is where some people remain trapped for a time. Not because they have been judged by anyone, it is simply their attachment to the physical and it is not a pleasant experience for those who are delayed here. Sadly some never leave here but eventually sleep until their next life.

The next level of the world of illusion, is the arrival point for a large proportion of recently deceased, and here they are greeted by their deity their loved ones, their dog or whatever their preconception of heaven would be. It is however, all an illusion created by their own thoughts. This is an incredibly confusing place and nothing like what we would call a comfortable existence.

On this plane we can never be certain if the person we are communicating with is real or phantasy. Evil can be present within the first four planes. life forms exist here as elementals that have never materialised in the physical and there also exists shells of people who have moved on and also shadows of those who have passed on from the plane.

These shells/shadows are quite often occupied by elementals that take much joy in being mischievous. The shedding of matter is dictated by the condition of the mind and it’s connection or dependence to the physical. As matter is discarded a new sub plane is achieved and the ghost image of the physical world dissolves away.

It is here that the emotional bodies of the living can be observed and our true nature revealed as being clothed in envelopes of other elemental beings with thought forms floating away like balloons to dissipate after a few seconds. perception is greatly magnified here with colours and sounds that never materialise in the physical world and things are viewed from all perspectives simultaneously.

Many people are very happy in the last three sub planes of Maya and elect to stay and rest here, by this time a more concrete sense of reality sets in and loved ones and friends can reunite here and set up a relatively heavenly life, constructing temporary and sometimes semi permanent houses complete with pastures and mountains or cities from their own imaginations. There are permanent structures here which where created by others who have gone before.

Existence here can equate to a life on the physical plane and a sense of peace is obtained. In some teaching this place is called Summer-lands.

Eventually the emotional envelope will dissolve away and another death is experienced, although not nearly as traumatic. It is here that the consciousness awakes in its mental/causal envelope. For most people the mental envelope is as far as they are able to achieve based on their consciousness evolution. This plane is what most people would describe as heaven, a world of permanent bliss where everything you attempt is wildly successful, every plan blossoms into perfection, every piece of music you create is beautiful, every painting is a masterpiece. A place where all your fictions become a wonderful reality. (even evolution theory Astyanax)

When you remove the self imposed shell that surrounds your personal bliss, you can communicate with beings of unimaginable intelligence, beauty and grace. Some call them Devas, some call them Angels whatever you call them they are real and belong to a parallel evolutionary path that has never manifested into the physical world.

For those who have advanced to causal consciousness a whole new glory awaits them inside their causal envelope and all previous lives can be examined and real learning can take place here. Your new life to come is arranged with your own input as opposed to having it chosen for you. Most people reside here in a sleep or only a slightly aware existence awaiting their next reincarnation.

This post is getting a little bit long, but I must add that although the early sub-planes sound horrific, the experience is anything but for most people, the reason being, is a pervasive energy that flows through everything which brings with it an overpowering sense of love and contentment.


edit on 19-1-2015 by kennyb72 because: Quote



posted on Jan, 19 2015 @ 02:37 AM
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a reply to: kennyb72

I just noticed, predictive text changed Pythagoras to Pythagorus in my previous post for some inexplicable reason. My apologies.

Must be the dark side messing with me

edit on 19-1-2015 by kennyb72 because: ETA



posted on Jan, 19 2015 @ 03:16 AM
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a reply to: kennyb72

Your post is mostly fantasy. Nothing is known of Pythagoras, his life or teachings, except for a few fragmentary descriptions that have come down to us from people who mostly thought Pythogoras and his disciples were figures of fun (eating beans, farting a lot, that sort of thing). Even the proof of his famous theorem isn't his; it's Euclid's, or at best unattributed.

You are an expert in an imaginary subject!



posted on Jan, 19 2015 @ 03:48 AM
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originally posted by: LABTECH767
a reply to: windword

Excellent addition to the thread, thank you.
For some reason I always mixed up my history and thought it had to do with Helena and her son Constantine but not it was Theodora the prostitute who slept her way to the top that had reincarnation removed from the Christian faith and threw the whole religion into a state of illogical chaos, it is interesting that there was a karmic belief system in the early church among the early Christian's up to the fifth century as well, sadly it mean's that for nearly the past 1450 years the church has been in error on the subject, the more I look into it the more I begin to believe it is correct.



Reincarnation, like many other things, is an outside introduction at best and was never a foundational teaching or after life philosophy in christianity. Jesus nor the early disciples ever taught about it. What they teach was a pre birth accounting, for lack of a better word, but not from another life or recycle but from some place where life in ordained, a person is formed and can be known.



posted on Jan, 19 2015 @ 04:04 AM
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a reply to: Astyanax



Your post is mostly fantasy. Nothing is known of Pythagoras, his life or teachings, except for a few fragmentary descriptions that have come down to us from people who mostly thought Pythogoras and his disciples were figures of fun (eating beans, farting a lot, that sort of thing). Even the proof of his famous theorem isn't his; it's Euclid's, or at best unattributed.

You are an expert in an imaginary subject!



And what would you know Astyanax ? By your own admission being in possession of a Mind Firmly Closed. You are simply not equipped with the mental capacity to comprehend the esoteric,not everybody does, so don't feel too badly.

Perhaps in the next life you will have more joy.

I did point you in the direction of Pythagorean teachings in a previous post but you chose to ignore it, truly it is your loss.

My conclusion after a few previous discussions would be that you are a TROLL and I don't think I would be the first to call you that.



edit on 19-1-2015 by kennyb72 because: Quote



posted on Jan, 19 2015 @ 04:09 AM
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originally posted by: Astyanax
a reply to: windword


Emperor Justinian and his wife Theodora's — not to be confused with the Catholic saint with the same name.

Definitely not to be confused. She was, I believe, the one who complained that Nature had not provided the human body with a large enough number of pleasure-related orifices.

On topic, I believe Pythagoreans believed in reincarnation, and I'm sure a few other sects did too. No doubt some Christians sects were among the latter. And we must not forget that the fundamental Christiam mystery is one of a return from death to life.


The christian idea of death to life, resurrection, regeneration, is not a recycling back into the world through the womb again. Its about the death of the body, a period of separation from the rag body, and then being reunited with a new body from the old. This is clearly something other than the idea of dropping the body and recycling again through the womb.



posted on Jan, 19 2015 @ 06:04 AM
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a reply to: Logarock

Gospel literature says that Christ said "It is given for a man to be born once, then to die and then the resurrection" but he also said "You must be born again" this latter was not actually anything to do with the concept or reincarnation but to do with the rebirth into the kingdom of God through the holy spirit.
Many ancient Jewish sect's actually did not believe in reincarnation just as many actually did from what we can gather today and it was common to bury the dead where they fell in battle interring there body's and even there blood stained ground together as they actually believed in a physical reincarnation of the physical body.
When Jesus raised Lazarus he had not been reincarnated but said that he had walked the paths beneath the world whatever that meant but then there is John the Baptist.
As for Christian Karma - "Do unto other's as you would have done unto yourself"
"By there measure I shall measure them"

I find nothing against reincarnation and indeed it was an early Christian belief as pointed out by the scholars who have researched it, one story I heard was that it was removed/edited out form the Christian text's as those who decided to remove all reference to it even if that reference was vague saw it as making sinners think they could get off with being bad in this life because they could pay for it in the next.

Actually the resurrection Jesus explained it like this, You will not be separated by sex as men and woman are the same and marriage is a thing of the past, You will have a new universal or celestial body like the angels, indeed you will be angels (which beg's the question were did the angels therefore come from and remember the fallen angels corrupted there nature and man by going into the daughters of men who had been created in there image and who they found to be fair - I say there image because "Let us create them man and woman in our image", have a look at pre-adamite theory which would suggest the angels were a previous race'(s) of man who had ascended and since if this was the case the Angel's who went into the daughters of man took there own human form which was compatible enough to be nearly identical and were able to make the woman they took pregnant but they were also different enough for there children to be abomination's who ruled over man, super intelligent and also cruel and vicious even stooping to eating men as if they were merely lesser animals in there sight which of course angered God and those angels that had not fallen into this corruption as they were seeing there children (Man) being abused by these fallen and there corrupt offspring which bore both human and ascended nature.

So being born again may to term it in a Buddhist frame be the breaking form the wheel and entering a higher state no longer bound to the earth.

Like I say my mind is open and it is also open to the very real possibility that I may be totally wrong but then the only one who knows for certain is God and if he wishes us to know we shall, if not then we shall be confounded.

I remember a passage that someone reminded me of, "A false religion will come and many shall be deceived and follow it, do not be deceived and stay true".



posted on Jan, 19 2015 @ 07:32 AM
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a reply to: Logarock




The christian idea of death to life, resurrection, regeneration, is not a recycling back into the world through the womb again. Its about the death of the body, a period of separation from the rag body, and then being reunited with a new body from the old. This is clearly something other than the idea of dropping the body and recycling again through the womb


And yet, both Jesus and John the Baptist, both pre-existing souls by the biblical account, entered this world through the womb and took on "rag bodies"!



posted on Jan, 19 2015 @ 11:53 AM
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Another interesting site, www.enlightened-spirituality.org...

Now I am going to open up a bit about some weird instances in my life, at the age of three My mother was driving her British Leyland mini car through a town in Merseyside England called Huyton, Now I became very agitated, I barely remember it myself but my mother who is now elderly but fully in charge of her faculties remembers the hair on the back of her neck standing up and confirmed this.

I stood up on the back seat, there were no rear seat belt' those day's in the early 1970's and of course I was told to sit down, but I became urgent and had to explain myself, it was like waking up as memory's flooded into my mind, I told my mother my name was John and I lived around there, I told her the name of a shop and were it was, we passed it and though it looked different it was there, I remembered there being only one or two car's and the road's being cobbled, I remembered wearing a cloth peaked cap and threadbare pant's with holes at the knee's as well as an off white old shirt that had seen better day's and an old tweed jacket that was heavily worn, I had a home but was on my own and very old, about 80's or so, my shoes were worn with my toes poking out of the front from holes in the leather and my sock's and I remembered being a small man (I am a six foot guy now), I was frightened of forgetting who I was but the memory's soon faded, I think my death in that life would have been in the 40's or 50's.

About 1993 I started to undergo a kind of psychic trauma but it was something that you can't explain to other's and one day being a very religious guy I suddenly felt a very hard blow the back of my head while I was praying, I felt as though one side of me had shut down but I can not really explain the situation, it was like reliving or experiencing someone else's trauma, I had no belief in reincarnation despite my experience as a child and could only assume that it was happening right then to someone else a belief which so rooted itself in my mind I tried to find the place I saw.

After this bang I started to have vivid vision's both waking and sleeping that made me scream in horror and drove me toward a possible nervous breakdown, I seemed to see through the eye's of a young woman or girl and knew it was her that had been hit on the head, the most horrible vision burned into my mind, I felt my head being moved by someone holding my chin so that my face was looking upward, I actually felt the skull under my scalp grind together as if it was like a cracked egg shell and my brain was the boiled egg, felt myself lying on a hard surface possibly a table as I felt my leg's hanging off at the knee's my feet dangling, I felt cold and numb and my eye's flickered open, there over me was a lightbulb like we have in Britain and a white plastered ceiling, the light bulb was dull and grey (maybe 40 watt or lower I would say a modern 40 watt filament light bulb is brighter with a warner light) unlike the later pearlescent light bulb's that replaced it, I felt warm fluid pouring over my groin and heard an old man's voice with a very strong Yorkshire dales accent say "There, that'll warm ya up", then blackness.
I then found myself floating (About one or two feet above the ground) away from a white farmhouse, it had a porch on the front and a light at one side, one of the downstairs lights was on, no visible outbuilding's but it seemed to be on the dale's with no tree's just rolling grassy hill's, it was dark with black grey cloud's in the sky and evening or morning on the horizon over the hill's behind the house but I could see, there was a mud track that led away from the front of the house with with two deep rutted wheel tracks filled with water in places where the weels rut's had formed potholes in there own track's, the track led off to the left of the house in my field of vision, putting the house to my right, and curved toward me as I floated backwards along the track quite fast away from the house along it, I think I, my soul, was outside a car but near to my body which must have been inside it as it drove off probably to dispose of me, I actually think I was young maybe (I think, though this is more feeling and disjointed from the vision that I was on my way to or from school along a country road with a path on one side and a dry stone wall with tree's on both sides when I was taken, I do not know where that was, I was trying to piece it together when I realized it might be my own memories).

For month's I was fraught and desperate searching for this house but could never find it, I live in Lancashire the neighbouring county to Yorkshire but the accent does not necessarily mean it was Yorkshire though I think it was.
My psyche reading's say that I suffer from a form of PTS and all my life I have been repressed and very quiet especially as a child, I think this latter was my past life but actually think the incident when we drove through Huyton when I was three was a soul imprinting on a child which is something other than reincarnation but maybe I am wrong and I was John before I was whoever this poor girl was then I was me.

So I do not want to believe in reincarnation but I have more proof than most having had to relive a terrible experience whose trauma may still be affecting me in this life and maybe I have blocked out more than this that perhaps I need to confront to find peace in myself.


edit on 19-1-2015 by LABTECH767 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 19 2015 @ 05:57 PM
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a reply to: LABTECH767

LABTECH767 That is an incredibly detailed account. You appear to be accessing causal memory, although it could also be you have a Clairvoyant ability as both explanations are possible. I am inclined to think that these where your own experiences though because of the first person perspective. Clairvoyance from my understanding is generally a third person view of events.

Your life as John is a more common type of past life memory and mirrors my own experience although far more detailed. Your extremely traumatic memory of being the little girl raped and murdered is very disturbing and must be very difficult for you to cope with. You seem to be able to place John as having died around the middle of the last century but I am unclear about the time period of your life as the little girl.

Your ability to access previous life memories would suggest that your consciousness is well developed and would suggest even though I don’t know you, you would be in possession of a good deal of common sense and strong intuition regarding your lifes choices.

Most people who have your level of causal memory tend to be quite isolationist and although social enough, you will naturally feel a little bit different. Not always in a good way. Sometimes you feel quite alone in the world. You are a spiritual person, that is clear, and you have been looking for answers all your life.

Your past life memories are much more vivid than my own although, having said that, the sense of being a memory as opposed to being something I have picked up is undeniable to me.

I would just like to point out that your experience is not unique, although it is uncommon to carry that much trauma between lives. Just know that what you are experiencing could by some, be considered a gift, although It won’t seem like that to you right now.

You have a very good chance of accessing your causal consciousness, something the majority of humanity will take a good many lives to achieve.

In my view, organised religion provides a good level of spiritual understanding that was relevant for the ordinary man of two thousand years ago, but falls a long way short of the needs of a more mature incarnated being. Had you been living a thousand or so years ago, you would likely have been initiated into one secret order or another because of your awareness.

For most people, a latent memory is as good as it gets with regards to past life memories and usually manifests as talents or skills or leanings towards one thing or another, sometimes sexual orientation can be skewed for the same reason.


“So I do not want to believe in reincarnation but I have more proof than most having had to relive a terrible experience whose trauma may still be affecting me in this life and maybe I have blocked out more than this that perhaps I need to confront to find peace in myself.”

It is said that when we awaken in our causal envelope between lives, our journey through life as a human being is approaching it’s final stages (still many lives to go but more aware lives). Our lives as Essential beings is wonderful beyond description, there is no duality, no evil, no misunderstanding, Just an incredibly purposeful existence of untold joy and love for all life. This is who we are,it is our destiny and an inevitability. Personally I long for that day.

In the meantime we just have to get on with life. Your experience is double edged, on the one hand it is full of strangeness and pain, on the other hand it is proof for you beyond doubt of our continued existence,which is priceless.

Just know that we are all part of God, just as we are all a part of everything in existence. Our experiences are what makes us individuals within the whole.

The person who did this to you in a previous life has created very bad Karma for himself and justice is always served.

It is time for you to let go of that past life and accept it for what it is. Don’t let that spoil your current experience, that is not it’s purpose. Plant your feet firmly in this life, seek knowledge where you can of your true nature and know that you have travelled a very long road to arrive at where you are today.


edit on 19-1-2015 by kennyb72 because: Puctuation



posted on Jan, 19 2015 @ 11:13 PM
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a reply to: kennyb72


And what would you know Astyanax?

A fair bit of history, particularly that connected with Ancient Greece, which is a bit of a hobby of mine.


By your own admission being in possession of a Mind Firmly Closed.

Do you know what that motto really is, Kenny? It's an intelligence test. Care to guess how it works?


You are simply not equipped with the mental capacity to comprehend the esoteric, not everybody does, so don't feel too badly.

Oh, I don't. From my extensive researches into the matter, I note that those who 'comprehend the esoteric' are more remarkable for their mental incapacity than anything else.


My conclusion after a few previous discussions would be that you are a TROLL and I don't think I would be the first to call you that.

No you aren't. You're in pretty squalid company there, though.



posted on Jan, 19 2015 @ 11:14 PM
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originally posted by: mcChoodles
a reply to: MKMoniker

I firmly believe we are approaching the time when science will uncover irrefutable evidence of the soul and the hologram created in which the soul gathers new experience of the Creator's universe.


The reason it will not uncover this evidence, is that this is not "The Creator's" Universe.

The reincarnations as it were, are endless and the souls are actually not accomplishing anything in this particular hologram, and probably most all the rest either.

They are recycled endlessly and tirelessly to accomplish the goals of another........group.

And if science ever uncovered this, it would be because they have decided it is time to UNLOCK the hologram and see what the incredible explosion of realization will do, I.E. RE-CREATE the conditions to blast through all the holograms, and find "THE CREATOR".

A very few of us see this coming, total and COMPLETE DECEPTION on every level has been fully implemented on even the most advanced, even many of the Creators, have no actual idea how deep and far back this goes.......



posted on Jan, 19 2015 @ 11:15 PM
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a reply to: Logarock


The christian idea of death to life, resurrection, regeneration, is not a recycling back into the world through the womb again. Its about the death of the body, a period of separation from the rag body, and then being reunited with a new body from the old. This is clearly something other than the idea of dropping the body and recycling again through the womb.

Whatever you imagine it to be, it has nothing to do with rebirth as it is taught in Buddhism.



posted on Jan, 19 2015 @ 11:17 PM
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originally posted by: stosh64
a reply to: MKMoniker
I agree with much of what you said.

To me science and the Bible go hand in hand.

Sadly many are blinded and can not possibly consider it.





They do go hand in hand, as partial truths, enough truth to subterfuge, to gloss over, and both in these forms must die,,

That is what ALL are blinded from, and NONE can possibly consider it, as I have seen.



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