The F-35, the AESA radar, and the ability to beam down a computer virus from the sky

a reply to: roadgravel
You are talking about ECM (electronic counter measures) and ECCM ( electronic counter counter measures). Each country has teams trying to crack their own systems, and another team tries to counter that again...

That is also a reason why some countries refuse to buy American systems, dispite all the bribes and promises. That way they still have control of their own destinies. If a country buys an American, or Russian, or German, or French system, you can be assured that there are some exploits/vulnerabilities in it placed there deliberately. The more complex the system is, the more hidden these vulnerabilities will be. Thinking about that, then it is quite possible that the F35's being sold overseas would have just such a type of vulnerability built in....

a reply to: Hellhound604

We know the Chinese have done it to the US. If I were in charge, I'm not sure I would trust anyone in today's world. This is the leading edge of world dominance and control. Nothing unethical is off the table despite what a government states.

originally posted by: mbkennel
At some point, the target systems will have to start adopting malware technology, in particular robust polymorphism so that just like the viruses, the target code is never exactly the same, and buffer exploits developed against one target won't continue to work.

Part of BAE's XtremeEW package attempts to insert viral code into enemy combatant's radar systems. It's one of the current projects working on that sort of thing.

a reply to: boomer135

Good thread, but this technology has been around for awhile. In the days before hackers were into Corporate Theft And Sabotage, and were "just" stealing people's credit card numbers, this theft-by-WiFi was developed. Hackers developed the ability to drive slowly past a Big Box store with computerized terminals at Check Out, and with just a laptop, snag every credit card number being used at all the terminals at that time.

Today, the same technology works with passing cars or even helicopters or planes low overhead. But, like "keyloggers" in your keyboard (that records key-strokes, so passwords are useless), everyone keeps quiet about the technology.

Same with satellite surveillance, where there are orbiting cameras now that can read license plates on the ground. The survivalists are big on building and stocking a bunker in the middle of nowhere as insurance against a catastrophe. They stealthily visit it only once a year - and can't figure out how it still got broken into, and is now empty.

(I have NO credit cards, and have cut up even my bank debit card. Dealing with cash is great for staying within budget and not over-spending. And there are no delays or unhappy surprises at Check Out.

(And I applaud those in law enforcement, local to federal, who can "leverage the technology" to catch the criminals and terrorists BEFORE they can cause catastrophes.

(And if there is such a catastrophe in our future, I'd prefer to stay in a small to medium-sized group in a suburban or rural setting anyway, for protection, safety and support. Than launch out into the wilderness, and think you can protect your family and bunker from a "castle-seige" type operation - or weeks of onslaught by 50 raving lunatic criminals, as you run out of ammo.)

Food for thought ...

a reply to: MKMoniker

Granted that technology has been around for a while but we are talking about an f35 beaming down a virus to a radar station using AESA. Little bit of a difference I would think.

a reply to: roadgravel

The use of object oriented code in software development means that it's quite rare for new systems to be coded entirely from scratch.

Utilising old bits of code in new software is the cheapest way to deliver product so you tend to find some old vulnerabilities can make it through several iterations into new products before they are discovered.

The trick is to discover (or develop) exploits that no one else knows and never let anyone catch you using them.

A possible for/introducing these type of exploits is to do it at the assembly language/machine code level on the chips themselves.

I've met 100's of hackers, developers, coders and scripters but only ever 1 proper low level programmer.
China are clearly known for their microelectronics based espionage now but you cant help but wonder what kind of head start the actual inventors of microchips might have.

In terms of Radars....if you could take the latest Chinese or Russian technology to bits I'm sure you'd find chip architectures and languages lifted entirely from US designs- probably with the same vulnerabilities.

a reply to: Jukiodone

I bet the chance of uploading malware being accomplished is pretty slim.

Though it may be possible to hack some computers at a distance, it is not clear this can be done with all computers, especially older computers. Consider a computer without any type of wireless communication device built in. How would you hack this computer at a distance? They might be able to receive the EMF emissions and maybe see what the person is viewing, but that is about it.

Suppose you wish to hack into the computer, meaning you wish to impose your own signal onto the signal-bearing traces on the motherboard. This may be very difficult especially since you may have to send different rapidly changing digital signals to different wires at the same time at a distance of a couple of hundred or thousand feet. Not to mention that you will have to get the layout and make of the motherboard. Also, these signals may have to be quite strong to override the outputs of the local signals.

One way I can see how this could be done is if they use the wire(s) from the keyboard, mouse, or usb ports to the computer as an antenna. These may be easier to manipulate at a distance since the signals passing through them are serial. So even if your computer has no wireless communication capabilities built in, wires connected to USB or other such ports could be used to hack into the computer at a distance.

Also, many computers, even those that supposedly don't have any wireless capability, have secret communication devices built into them. I myself have had the opportunity to test this, sometimes the older and less expensive computers (like the GQ computer series from Fry's electronics) are quite secure. I disconnect that computer from Ethernet and boom no communication with the outside whatsoever. Newer more expensive computers are just packed to the rafters with every type of secret communication device available.

a reply to: Zaphod58

I'm not sure a malware attack would be the best strategy. Something more akin to a DDoS attack to overload the open flight management side of the computers, forcing a reboot. What if your APG-81 light up with 100,000 areal contacts in all directions? You'd never know where the real threat lay.

a reply to: roadgravel

Malware is so far removed from utilising secret, existing back doors in the complex mathematical function that underpins these systems ( or more specifically the cryptographic security they employ) it is not funny.

If you work under the assumption a technology you employ is secure ( because you cant break it ) you can either trust that finding or build/design your own version to be 100% sure- the latter never happens in technology for reasons already stated.

Here'sa good example of a state agency PAYING RSA to incorporate an algorithm that has a built in mathematical flaw which allows it be solved -if you knew how to approach the problem.

a reply to: Jukiodone

Sure, I agree. The topic mentioned uploading it via radar though. Backdoors in components do not even have to be very advanced.

a reply to: roadgravel

Exactly. Thats the way I look it it.

Beaming viruses down radars -as I said earlier- probably not.
Having existing backdoors in many technologies that are considered "Secure" yet have their roots in MIC funded projects; almost certainly.

ETA: @Aholic : Agree with the Denial of Service type attack...."Palladium" was in the 60's!

Could they just pull a Cylon attack and basically shut down all the enemy's systems and have their planes basically fall out of the sky?

a reply to: MystikMushroom
Like that scene in the most recent godzilla!

You might ask yourself how effective the F-35 still will be...

China stole plans for a new fighter plane, spy documents have revealed

Chinese spies stole key design information about Australia's new Joint Strike Fighter, according to top secret documents disclosed by former US intelligence contractor Edward Snowden.

German magazine Der Spiegel has published new disclosures of signals intelligence collected by the United States National Security Agency (NSA) and its "Five Eyes" partners, including the Australian Signals Directorate. The intelligence reveals new details of the directorate's efforts to track and combat Chinese cyber-espionage.

According to a top secret NSA presentation, Chinese cyber spies have stolen huge volumes of sensitive military information, including "many terabytes of data" relating to the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) - also known as the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II.

The leaked document shows that stolen design information included details of the JSF's radar systems which are used to identify and track targets; detailed engine schematics; methods for cooling exhaust gases; and "aft deck heating contour maps".

Although it has been previously alleged the F-35 has been a target of Chinese cyber-espionage, the Snowden documents provide the first public confirmation of how much the highly sensitive data has been compromised.

Source

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

They also got data on the F-22 and B-2. Your point is? That will help with their own stealth programs but won't help detect the F-35.

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

I can show you the aft duct heating maps of the jsf, not a very big deal. Let them copy all they want - it will never replace decades of experience actually designing and testing aircraft in reality and most importantly in combat. Even the Y and X aircraft we develop propel us decades ahead in thinking than they could ever steal with hacking.

I'm not worried.

From what's known, the J-20 utilizes 1980's stealth apperception. Nothing of confidence was lost in the hacks two years ago.

a reply to: aholic
Used to be a vulnerability in some radar systems. Been away from it for quite a while so it might be fixed..
If you send back more responses than are expected the system might get overloaded with the responses. Putting them in places where there are no targets. my expectations are this move would not be used unless the SHTF. On the other hand broadcasting bad data advertises your own position. Then a simple follow the signal missile would be led right to it. No broadcasting by the source needed.
Used to use beam rider missiles that broadcast their usage for the missiles to led them to the target. Now they only broadcast for the last ten seconds or less. Moving at that speed the target is stationary and has no opportunity to jamb the radar and thus the missile.

a reply to: datasdream

BVR missiles take the initial cue from the targeting guidance computer onboard the fighter. If that systems is SNAFU, then no missile lock, simple as that.