Christian Complaint that Baker Refuses to Decorate Cake with Anti-Gay Message

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: intrepid

originally posted by: Logarock
She has obviously decided that she won't give full service to some.

No, she won't give full service to ANYONE that wants hate filled rhetoric on their cake. She also wouldn't have done one that said "Christians suck."

The fact that she says she wouldn't do hatful language on any cake is beside the point. Sounds fair and balanced but its not something that has any legal standing based on that fact alone. So one baker just wont put any ol thing on a cake and the other wont make a cake at all. No difference really in a service context.

Actually there is a HUGE difference in a service context. One situation people are being denied service for being part of a certain minority group. The other situation someone isn't getting exactly what they wanted because the store doesn't carry that item in the inventory (whether it can be made on the spot or not is irrelevant).

Its a behavior based group really. Trying to give it another name because of its comparatively low numbers when compared to heterosexuals is just ridiculous.

a reply to: Logarock

You are making a strange jump in logic here. I'm not, nor is anyone else here, advocating the banning of the bible. But if you think that being able to speak hate speech towards another group of people should be a protected part of your religion, then there is something wrong with your religion (and possibly you). There are plenty of passages from the bible and quotes within Christianity that could have gone on the cake and made everyone happy.

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: Logarock
Positive message?

Yes, like "Praise the Lord!" or "The Lord is my Shepherd". You know, POSITIVE MESSAGES. Not negative messages like, "Homosexuals are Despicable Sinners!"

Got it?

So now you want to dictate fair and acceptable religious speech? Is that it?

Denouncing homosexuals isn't religious speech. It is hate speech.

Well so when are we going to be discussing the outlaw of the bible then? Ah I just realized we cant do that because the bible discriminates equally.

this isnt about the bible. its about customer service and what qualifies as legal discrimination.

lets not make this a religious debate because thats a dead end.

originally posted by: TzarChasm
methinks you are arguing for the sake of arguing.

Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding!

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
Actually there is a HUGE difference in a service context. One situation people are being denied service for being part of a certain minority group. The other situation someone isn't getting exactly what they wanted because the store doesn't carry that item in the inventory (whether it can be made on the spot or not is irrelevant).

Exactly.

If a person goes to Sonic Drive in and wants a hamburger, but the owner refuses to sell them one because they're gay, THAT is discrimination.

If, instead, they order a filet Mignon, and the owner refuses because they don't sell filets to ANYONE, that's NOT discrimination.

we live in a really strange world

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: Logarock
Positive message?

Yes, like "Praise the Lord!" or "The Lord is my Shepherd". You know, POSITIVE MESSAGES. Not negative messages like, "Homosexuals are Despicable Sinners!"

Got it?

So now you want to dictate fair and acceptable religious speech? Is that it?

Denouncing homosexuals isn't religious speech. It is hate speech.

Well so when are we going to be discussing the outlaw of the bible then? Ah I just realized we cant do that because the bible discriminates equally.

this isnt about the bible. its about customer service and what qualifies as legal discrimination.

lets not make this a religious debate because thats a dead end.

Don't just drop in on me and start harping about a religious debate. I didn't bring it up and was trying hard to avoid even using the word religion. go back through the thread and read it.

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: intrepid

originally posted by: Logarock
She has obviously decided that she won't give full service to some.

No, she won't give full service to ANYONE that wants hate filled rhetoric on their cake. She also wouldn't have done one that said "Christians suck."

The fact that she says she wouldn't do hatful language on any cake is beside the point. Sounds fair and balanced but its not something that has any legal standing based on that fact alone. So one baker just wont put any ol thing on a cake and the other wont make a cake at all. No difference really in a service context.

NO - a baker is within her rights to decide what kind of product she will sell. She just has to sell the same product to everyone (according to the appropriate state law). There is no difference between a gay wedding cake and a straight wedding cake as far as the ingredients goes. If you sell wedding cakes to straights, then you have to sell wedding cakes to gays (if that's your state law). Discrimination laws don't come into play on the product you sell. It comes into play on who you will decide to sell to. The baker gets to decide what products she will produce, and protected groups get to purchase the same product that everyone else does.

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: intrepid

originally posted by: Logarock
She has obviously decided that she won't give full service to some.

No, she won't give full service to ANYONE that wants hate filled rhetoric on their cake. She also wouldn't have done one that said "Christians suck."

The fact that she says she wouldn't do hatful language on any cake is beside the point. Sounds fair and balanced but its not something that has any legal standing based on that fact alone. So one baker just wont put any ol thing on a cake and the other wont make a cake at all. No difference really in a service context.

Actually there is a HUGE difference in a service context. One situation people are being denied service for being part of a certain minority group. The other situation someone isn't getting exactly what they wanted because the store doesn't carry that item in the inventory (whether it can be made on the spot or not is irrelevant).

Its a behavior based group really. Trying to give it another name because of its comparatively low numbers when compared to heterosexuals is just ridiculous.

You are really stretching here in your attempt to defend this blatant asshole. The bakery doesn't make hate filled cakes. I couldn't walk into that shop and ask them to make a Darwin fish cake that said "Burn all Christians". The baker would make the Darwin fish cake then give me the icing to complete it. It's just that simple. You are making a mountain out of a molehill here so that you can pretend like there is some sort of Christian persecution going on. But it isn't. You need to pick your battles better than this.

originally posted by: intrepid

originally posted by: Logarock
She has obviously decided that she won't give full service to some.

No, she won't give full service to ANYONE that wants hate filled rhetoric on their cake. She also wouldn't have done one that said "Christians suck."

The law pertains to discrimination in terms of doing business with somebody, not the message.

The baker could choose to only write "Christians suck" and still sell those cakes to everybody, including Christians.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Logarock

You are making a strange jump in logic here. I'm not, nor is anyone else here, advocating the banning of the bible. But if you think that being able to speak hate speech towards another group of people should be a protected part of your religion, then there is something wrong with your religion (and possibly you). There are plenty of passages from the bible and quotes within Christianity that could have gone on the cake and made everyone happy.

I'm not making a strange jump in logic. My line of reasoning follows a strait line of logic. You really don't think out where your points are heading when you make them.

Like right now.....you are trying to dictate what would be an acceptable passage. You don't even realize what you are doing or saying as it confronts the foundations of free and liberated thinking. Not only are you sounding like a PC Sunday school teacher you are advocating thought control ect.

a reply to: Logarock

But that's exactly what it is:

A Colorado baker has been slapped with a religious discrimination complaint for refusing to decorate one of their cakes with a homophobic message for a customer.

Religious. And this is a complete BS setup:

Azucar Bakery in Denver is known for being a business that is welcoming of LGBTI people and has made wedding cakes for same-sex couples in the past but also make cakes with religious themes so staff were not suspicious when a customer came in to ask if they would make a cake in the shape of a Bible for him.

But wanted:

‘I remember the words detestable, disgrace, homosexuality, and sinners … I told him that I would bake the cake in the shape of a Bible. Then I told him I’d sell him a [decorating] bag with the right tip and the right icing so he could write those things himself.’

Basically we've got a religious asshat that was trying to make a point. He failed. This will be thrown out.

originally posted by: Logarock
I'm not making a strange jump in logic. My line of reasoning follows a strait line of logic.

Could you lay out that line of reasoning, please? There is more than one of us that can't follow you.

a reply to: intrepid

Yeah, I thought I said all that in the OP...

Also:

Silva suspects the man chose her bakery because she made a pro-equality statement to a Spanish-language outlet after the Colorado Civil Rights Commission upheld a court ruling against another bakery that refused to produce cakes for same-sex weddings.

“I’m not sure if I made the right decision [legally],” Silva said. “But it felt right to me as a person.”

Combative Man Files Complaint

I think one of the biggest issues is that many see homosexuality as being some kind of oppositional force to Christianity. Truth is, there are a lot of gay Christians and a lot of Christians who don't see gay people as the enemy.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: intrepid

originally posted by: Logarock
She has obviously decided that she won't give full service to some.

No, she won't give full service to ANYONE that wants hate filled rhetoric on their cake. She also wouldn't have done one that said "Christians suck."

The fact that she says she wouldn't do hatful language on any cake is beside the point. Sounds fair and balanced but its not something that has any legal standing based on that fact alone. So one baker just wont put any ol thing on a cake and the other wont make a cake at all. No difference really in a service context.

Actually there is a HUGE difference in a service context. One situation people are being denied service for being part of a certain minority group. The other situation someone isn't getting exactly what they wanted because the store doesn't carry that item in the inventory (whether it can be made on the spot or not is irrelevant).

Its a behavior based group really. Trying to give it another name because of its comparatively low numbers when compared to heterosexuals is just ridiculous.

You are really stretching here in your attempt to defend this blatant asshole. The bakery doesn't make hate filled cakes. I couldn't walk into that shop and ask them to make a Darwin fish cake that said "Burn all Christians". The baker would make the Darwin fish cake then give me the icing to complete it. It's just that simple. You are making a mountain out of a molehill here so that you can pretend like there is some sort of Christian persecution going on. But it isn't. You need to pick your battles better than this.

On the contrary. You are simply to comfortable in your methods of coming to conclusions. Your getting stuck and going into default assault mode. Out with logic and reason and in with the rhetoric and superlatives. You are also Freud slipping.

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Logarock

You are making a strange jump in logic here. I'm not, nor is anyone else here, advocating the banning of the bible. But if you think that being able to speak hate speech towards another group of people should be a protected part of your religion, then there is something wrong with your religion (and possibly you). There are plenty of passages from the bible and quotes within Christianity that could have gone on the cake and made everyone happy.

I'm not making a strange jump in logic. My line of reasoning follows a strait line of logic. You really don't think out where your points are heading when you make them.

Like right now.....you are trying to dictate what would be an acceptable passage. You don't even realize what you are doing or saying as it confronts the foundations of free and liberated thinking. Not only are you sounding like a PC Sunday school teacher you are advocating thought control ect.

There is no law that requires the baker or any business to censor themselves in terms of the message they publish.

The baker could randomly decide one day to write "Chirstians Suck" on a cake or "Muslims Suck" or "Gays Suck."

The message doesn't matter.

When customers come into the store, the law says he can't discriminate on who he does business with based on their religion.

He could sell "Jews Suck" cakes to Jews. If they didn't like his "Jews Suck" cakes, it would be the customer's choice to leave the store.

Telling a customer what he will put on a cake it not discriminating against the customer.

originally posted by: TheArrow

originally posted by: Logarock
I'm not making a strange jump in logic. My line of reasoning follows a strait line of logic.

Could you lay out that line of reasoning, please? There is more than one of us that can't follow you.

You'll have to go back and read my posts and keep in mind context for response and OP. If you still cant figure it out blame the education system for not helping you activate certain parts of your brains logic and reasoning center.

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: buster2010

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: buster2010
Did what the man want written on the cake come from the bible? If not then he really can't say that the baker is discriminating against his religion. Just because the Christian faith is against homosexuality doesn't mean you say whatever you want about it and claim it's my religion.

Well it was a private business proposition were the personal preferences of the persons providing service were brought to bear on the outcome in both cases.

Just because it was a private business proposition doesn't mean the baker has to put hate speech on the cake the man wanted. Crying it's my religion doesn't give a person an automatic free pass on spreading hate.

Try to see it for what it is. When someone comes out of the closet they have to shove somebody back in. The religious conscience....meet the new queer, the new closet queen.

Oh please. Just because someone doesn't get to spread their hate because they are crying it's my religion doesn't mean that it is true.

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: TheArrow

originally posted by: Logarock
I'm not making a strange jump in logic. My line of reasoning follows a strait line of logic.

Could you lay out that line of reasoning, please? There is more than one of us that can't follow you.

You'll have to go back and read my posts and keep in mind context for response and OP. If you still cant figure it out blame the education system for not helping you activate certain parts of your brains logic and reasoning center.

I've tried.

You said it's straight line, I can't follow the line. You are all over the place, you move goalposts, you bring in outside elements. It is really anything but straight line.

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: buster2010

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: buster2010
Did what the man want written on the cake come from the bible? If not then he really can't say that the baker is discriminating against his religion. Just because the Christian faith is against homosexuality doesn't mean you say whatever you want about it and claim it's my religion.

Well it was a private business proposition were the personal preferences of the persons providing service were brought to bear on the outcome in both cases.

Just because it was a private business proposition doesn't mean the baker has to put hate speech on the cake the man wanted. Crying it's my religion doesn't give a person an automatic free pass on spreading hate.

Was he "spreading hate" or just trolling? If one refuses a cake based on moral grounds, "I won't put hateful messages on my cakes," why can't another refuse on moral grounds, "I won't bake a cake for a gay wedding." Both are moral positions. Both are probably based on deep seated feelings and beliefs. Why should the government force one but not the other?

Go back and reread the article. The baker didn't refuse to bake the cake the baker refused to put hate speech on it. The baker even offered to give the guy icing so he could put it on there himself. Hatemongers must not be able to spell. And when did hate become moral?

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: TheArrow

originally posted by: Logarock
I'm not making a strange jump in logic. My line of reasoning follows a strait line of logic.

Could you lay out that line of reasoning, please? There is more than one of us that can't follow you.

You'll have to go back and read my posts and keep in mind context for response and OP. If you still cant figure it out blame the education system for not helping you activate certain parts of your brains logic and reasoning center.

There is a hole in what you call logic and reasoning.

There are ZERO laws that force a business to offer a product that a customer demands.

Zero.

0.

In our free market system, the customer has the freedom to go another bakery who will provide the product he wants. It's called competition.

I can't go into a Catholic Church and demand they preach about my Muslim beliefs. I can't go to somebody who prints bibles and demand they print porn.

And I can't go into a bakery and demand they write anything on a cake for me.