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Are We Free or Determind

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posted on Dec, 15 2004 @ 06:09 PM
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I just had a thought awhile ago about this freedom thread.

There is some interesting talkin going on that makes my mind tick over.

There is also a lack of freedom in the way we all are created.

Adam was created by God. He didn't have a choice on how he was created. We were created by our parents. We have no say in how we are created. If your parents smoked lots of drugs, drank alcohol heaps, ate fatty foods, then the chances are, you will inherit some associated problems or weeknesses. Really, If I had it my way, I would like to have movie star good looks, be brilliant at sport, have an amazing mind etc but that freedom is taken away from me. Luck of the draw I guess.

I child that is hit by a car and dies has their freedom of living taken away from them.

Also there has been talk about freedom of thought not really being that free either, as we are raised with preconceived notions etc. I would argue these are barriers, like walls in prison.

For instance, a person could be free in prison if they could climb over the walls (barriers). Likewise, a child raised by racist parents would need to break down his taught ideals to be free of these ideas. He is free to do this but it is harder than a child who has not been bought up this way. Possibly upbringing has a lot to do with enhancing freedom of choice in this area.




posted on Dec, 15 2004 @ 06:14 PM
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Good point, I understand the problem: that we didn't choose to live, or to inherit a lack of ________ (fill in with sickness). These things were just pushed upon us, it seems pretty unfair. Though we never had any memory when we are in our mother womb or even before that, if theres such a thing. But maybe lifes like a video game, you have three setting: Easy, Medium, and Hard. Maybe we put the coins in and went for the ride. Just a thought to add.



posted on Dec, 15 2004 @ 08:06 PM
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Actually, everyone is born free. For children, anything is possible. They are imaginative, fanciful, and full of hope. As they grow up, society enslaves them by bombarding them with all the "dont's", "you may not...", "you must always", and the "oh that's ridiculous" rap. This bombardment is a sure-fire way of killing their imagination and hope. And thus their free will is reduced, if not eliminated, because they then are reluctant to speak up, or speak against, and act as well. It is these children that will be the successors of our kind. Just IMHO.



posted on Dec, 15 2004 @ 08:18 PM
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Originally posted by aSEEKER
Actually, everyone is born free. For children, anything is possible. They are imaginative, fanciful, and full of hope. As they grow up, society enslaves them by bombarding them with all the "dont's", "you may not...", "you must always", and the "oh that's ridiculous" rap. This bombardment is a sure-fire way of killing their imagination and hope. And thus their free will is reduced, if not eliminated, because they then are reluctant to speak up, or speak against, and act as well. It is these children that will be the successors of our kind. Just IMHO.


So your saying, that total freedom of the mind is to have a totally blank mind free of any influences (which is impossible while we are alive) So to be free, we actually need to be dead!
Or not to be born at all


I might be inclined to believe that everyone is born into slavery of some form or another.



posted on Dec, 15 2004 @ 09:04 PM
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No I'm not suggesting that at all.

I am merely saying that our horizons can only be limited by our society: family, government, religion etc. etc.



posted on Dec, 15 2004 @ 09:26 PM
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Originally posted by ZeroDeep
You're going to snowball this into a creationism vs Evolution thread; assuming that God gave us 'free will' and created us and afforded us the ability to logicaly dictate our lives. Freewill is no accord of God and has been pressumed thousands of years before Gods arrival in Ancient Cannan: We see the primordial laws of determinism sparking life in ancient vedic teachings. Humans have this ability facilitate and employ reason, logic and rational, but only few deploy this unto thier very existence and abide by such countenance.


If it snowballs into anything it is because that is the nature of discussion, for I have mentioned nothing about evolution. What I did address is a main component of the topic of this thread; freewill. To wit:

An intersting discussion occured in my class today about whether human kind actually has free will.
Now if you would prefer to discuss the other choice, determinism, or any other philosophy relative to the human mind, then I will not infringe upon your freewill to do so. And I have never heard of a widely believed granting of freewill to earthlings by anyone other than a Godhead.

Now I have no interest whatsoever in discussing freewill predating God, unless you wish to discuss the very concept of God, and our indoctrination into who he his from a religious perspective, which by the way is the snowball in your response.



posted on Dec, 15 2004 @ 09:47 PM
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Originally posted by shmick25
Hi SomewhereinBetween

Agreed. God did state that he would harden his heart. It doesn’t say how. One can argue it was through the use, as I said, of the 'wonders' that God displayed.
Here again is the quote: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

Now unless pharaoh's heart has the ability to think, that to me is very clear, that God caused pharaoh to deny the Israelites their freedom. If you want to use miracles, then those miracles whatever they were, were intended to do exactly the same thing. The fact is, the only miracles we are told about are those Moses performed, each intended by God to cause pharaoh to allow them to leave;

And it shall come to pass, if they will not believe thee, neither harken to the voice of the first sign, that they will believe the voice of the latter sign.
Yet, he hardened his heart I believe the count was five times, not the least of which was so he could show off his powers:

And the Lord said unto Moses, Go in unto pharaoh; for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him.
But that display of oneupmanship is another topic altogether.


I am in a plane with a pilot. he is the only person who knows how to fly the plane. I tell him to piss off because I want the freedom to fly the plane myself. He jumps out and now I have to figure out how the thing works (but with no pilot). I have the freedom to do what I want in the plane but do not have the advise of the pilot so will ultimately crash.

Make sense?
No.



posted on Dec, 15 2004 @ 09:59 PM
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quote: I am in a plane with a pilot. he is the only person who knows how to fly the plane. I tell him to piss off because I want the freedom to fly the plane myself. He jumps out and now I have to figure out how the thing works (but with no pilot). I have the freedom to do what I want in the plane but do not have the advise of the pilot so will ultimately crash.
Make sense?

No.

Yeah I agree it doesnt.




Now unless pharaoh's heart has the ability to think, that to me is very clear, that God caused pharaoh to deny the Israelites their freedom.


Ok. Say you are correct, and I kinda agree with you anyway. What you are saying is that Pharaoh was lacking freedom of choice right? God was taking forcing his hand. Fair enough, you can argue that. BUT did Pharaoh have the freedom of choice to let the Israelites go before this stage? I would argue yes. Does God run out of patience some times? So it seems. The question that you have to ask is, 'Did God give Pharaoh suitable opportunities to let the Israelites go?'



posted on Dec, 15 2004 @ 11:06 PM
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Originally posted by shmick25...Does God run out of patience some times? So it seems. The question that you have to ask is, 'Did God give Pharaoh suitable opportunities to let the Israelites go?'
That makes absolutely no sense, save to say that pharaoh at one time did have the choice of letting them go. But then that choice was taken from him. He was therefore made to suffer all the plagues because God would not allow him to change his mind. I will use an analogy also.

God has pharaoh’s head in a vise. He says to him, let my people go. Pharaoh of his own freewill says no! God tightens the screws. God tells him again; let my people go. Pharaoh again with freewill says no! God tightens the screws. This goes on a few more times, pharaoh realizes his skull is soon to crack, and decides when next asked, he will say, Okay, they can go. But God decides, nope, I want to show him how tight my vise can grip, so he removes pharaoh’s ability to say yes, and keeps demanding he let his people go. God realizes that all the vise will do on the next two turns is cause his skull to crumble and kill him, and his people still wouldn’t have been let go, so he winks at Moses and says:

…I will bring one plague more [more turn of the vise] unto pharaoh, and upon Egypt: afterwards he will let you go hence…
God gives those screws a spin once more, and pharaoh not in command of his own faculties finds he can say nothing but; no! Now before the next turn, God places pharaoh’s son’s head in the vise and changes his freewill from saying no to yes. Pharaoh blurts out after the vise with one swift turn kills his son; okay, they can get the hell out of my land!

So God's people leave, and pharaoh had a headache that 50 percodan couldn’t dull. It was over, they will just be shut in by the wilderness, as far as he is concerned. But God decided once more, no, it isn’t over, he let my people go, but that’s not enough, I don’t want him thinking those thoughts. So he thought to himself:

I will harden pharaoh’s heart, that he shall follow them…
the rest is history as you know it.

Pharaoh was doomed by the will of God, and he was doomed by the hijacking of his freewill. In other words, if it can be taken from you, you never really had it. Whether he runs out of patience is not part of the equation. If he is going to intercede and enforce his will on those he created, that says he is an intolerant bully, a far cry from someone we are expected to believe allows mankind the choice of choosing to love him or not. He is God, not a mound of human emotion, a reactionary to mood swings.

He is perfect in every way, at least in my mind he is, but not as portrayed.



posted on Dec, 15 2004 @ 11:35 PM
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Quite an amusing story.. you should be an author


Have you seen that cartoon, moses prince of egypt? I personally thought that did an ok job of depicting what could have happend. Your story makes many assumptions and does tend to read between the lines a bit.

The beginning of the story tells of how Pharaoh killed all the first born of the Israelites. The last plague is the death of all the first born in egypt. This in itself is symbolic. Now, God gave them the choice of marking their doorways with blood to be saved from this plague. Pharoah did not give this choice to his captives. So all of Egypt had 100% freedom here to do this.

The issue that illudes you is that of time (and has been brought up before in this thread).

God said he would harden Pharoahs heart. This could also be interpreted as 'I know that Pharoah will have a hardened heart' (who knows!)

In any event, we are trying to second guess the will of God, (comparable to an ant trying to understand the actions of a human). Very complex. But I agree, it could read like as you say if you look at it that way.

You raise some interesting points but I don't really think the moral of the story is what you presented.



posted on Dec, 16 2004 @ 07:19 AM
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The LORD is omniscient, meaning that he knows all from the begining to the end. Now just because he knows what we will choose doesn't mean that he chose it for us.


Isaiah 46:9,10 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me.

Declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times the things that are not done yet, saying, my counsel shall stand, and I shall do all my pleasure



posted on Dec, 16 2004 @ 08:35 PM
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Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
In other words, if it can be taken from you, you never really had it. .


Wow, that is a really good point.
You should write books:up But when was all of Egypt told to put the blood over their doorways? I never remember in any version of the story that (for ex.) Moses went up on the loud speaker and annouced that if the Egyptians didn't put blood over their doorways , their first born male would die. Or was this only for the jewish people?Sorry a litte confused.



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