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Originally posted by aSEEKER
Actually, everyone is born free. For children, anything is possible. They are imaginative, fanciful, and full of hope. As they grow up, society enslaves them by bombarding them with all the "dont's", "you may not...", "you must always", and the "oh that's ridiculous" rap. This bombardment is a sure-fire way of killing their imagination and hope. And thus their free will is reduced, if not eliminated, because they then are reluctant to speak up, or speak against, and act as well. It is these children that will be the successors of our kind. Just IMHO.
Originally posted by ZeroDeep
You're going to snowball this into a creationism vs Evolution thread; assuming that God gave us 'free will' and created us and afforded us the ability to logicaly dictate our lives. Freewill is no accord of God and has been pressumed thousands of years before Gods arrival in Ancient Cannan: We see the primordial laws of determinism sparking life in ancient vedic teachings. Humans have this ability facilitate and employ reason, logic and rational, but only few deploy this unto thier very existence and abide by such countenance.
Now if you would prefer to discuss the other choice, determinism, or any other philosophy relative to the human mind, then I will not infringe upon your freewill to do so. And I have never heard of a widely believed granting of freewill to earthlings by anyone other than a Godhead.
An intersting discussion occured in my class today about whether human kind actually has free will.
Here again is the quote: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.
Originally posted by shmick25
Agreed. God did state that he would harden his heart. It doesn’t say how. One can argue it was through the use, as I said, of the 'wonders' that God displayed.
Yet, he hardened his heart I believe the count was five times, not the least of which was so he could show off his powers:
And it shall come to pass, if they will not believe thee, neither harken to the voice of the first sign, that they will believe the voice of the latter sign.
But that display of oneupmanship is another topic altogether.
And the Lord said unto Moses, Go in unto pharaoh; for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him.
I am in a plane with a pilot. he is the only person who knows how to fly the plane. I tell him to piss off because I want the freedom to fly the plane myself. He jumps out and now I have to figure out how the thing works (but with no pilot). I have the freedom to do what I want in the plane but do not have the advise of the pilot so will ultimately crash.
quote: I am in a plane with a pilot. he is the only person who knows how to fly the plane. I tell him to piss off because I want the freedom to fly the plane myself. He jumps out and now I have to figure out how the thing works (but with no pilot). I have the freedom to do what I want in the plane but do not have the advise of the pilot so will ultimately crash.
Now unless pharaoh's heart has the ability to think, that to me is very clear, that God caused pharaoh to deny the Israelites their freedom.
That makes absolutely no sense, save to say that pharaoh at one time did have the choice of letting them go. But then that choice was taken from him. He was therefore made to suffer all the plagues because God would not allow him to change his mind. I will use an analogy also.
Originally posted by shmick25...Does God run out of patience some times? So it seems. The question that you have to ask is, 'Did God give Pharaoh suitable opportunities to let the Israelites go?'
God gives those screws a spin once more, and pharaoh not in command of his own faculties finds he can say nothing but; no! Now before the next turn, God places pharaoh’s son’s head in the vise and changes his freewill from saying no to yes. Pharaoh blurts out after the vise with one swift turn kills his son; okay, they can get the hell out of my land!
…I will bring one plague more [more turn of the vise] unto pharaoh, and upon Egypt: afterwards he will let you go hence…
the rest is history as you know it.
I will harden pharaoh’s heart, that he shall follow them…
Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
In other words, if it can be taken from you, you never really had it. .