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Are We Free or Determind

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posted on Dec, 14 2004 @ 08:45 PM
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Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
Free will is the ability to think, act, react, choose, deny as one sees fit. Any mind controlling intervention therefore denies free will. We do not have free will in the God given sense, where, by his desire he removes the ability of another to abide by anything other than what he wants them to abide by. He invoked his will over others many times. Also, if we are to believe in revelaton, then it has already been determined that evil will still be rampant during that time, therefore, if free will existed there would be no need to allow mankind to cary on for thousands of years so that his laws would be adhered to, but then proclaim thousands of years in advance, he will destroy us for choosing the wrong path.


Your getting confused between free will and predestination.

Take God out of the picture for a moment. Religion does not exist. If America said to Russia, stop making nukes else we will go to war with you. Does russia have the freedom to make nukes? Of course it does.

A general sais ' America will never win a war against Russia', Is america now destined to loose the war and thus has reduced freedom?

Next question. Are people more free if they believe in God than if they dont?




posted on Dec, 14 2004 @ 08:52 PM
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Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween
Free will is the ability to think, act, react, choose, deny as one sees fit. Any mind controlling intervention therefore denies free will.


Beautifully put and I am in total agreement !



posted on Dec, 14 2004 @ 11:02 PM
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No croat nothing like that Parrahesia was asking me a question earlier, just read the begning of the post i don't feel like re writing it sorry I am busy right now.



posted on Dec, 14 2004 @ 11:12 PM
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Originally posted by aSEEKER
My own view is that inaction or non-reaction is as much an action, as reaction. I believe that it is impossible to isolate oneself from a situation to the point where you would just want to remain mum.


I agree. Non-action is certainly equal of action or reaction. It is still a choice regardless of the differences involved when one makes the choice (that is to say, whether one considered the choice, rejects it, decided to do something, decides to do something idependant of the circumstances, or reacts to the circumstances)..

Whethere something is done or nothing is done, comes done to choice. Is it free will? Perhaps.... if you make the choice independant of the circumstances in question. If you react? It's stilla choice, but a choice based on cause and effect, which itself has problems attached to it.



posted on Dec, 14 2004 @ 11:13 PM
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Originally posted by ben91069
If he has the ability to do this and still does it, then free will is somthing that can be controlled by God - which is not free will at all unless you can control all of your emotions.


This is what Spinoza says, though his god is NOT one that is anthropomorphic as the Christian God is, but can be equated to nature.
The comparisons are interesting.

[edit on 14-12-2004 by parrhesia]



posted on Dec, 14 2004 @ 11:26 PM
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Originally posted by shmick25
Take God out of the picture for a moment. Religion does not exist. If America said to Russia, stop making nukes else we will go to war with you. Does russia have the freedom to make nukes? Of course it does..............

......................Next question. Are people more free if they believe in God than if they dont?



But if God can manipulate your emotions without you knowing it, then we aren't really free to make a decision. You make decisions on how you 'feel' about things. It has nothing to do with religion, which is just mankinds ideas about what faith they believe. Most people do not believe that God is messing with their thought process, but the part in the Bible I referred to claims, he did do so. The reason Russia may still produce nukes in your scenario may be in fact, God controlling their reasoning by their emotions just as he did with Pharoah. To answer your last statement, if what I am suggesting is correct, then people are not free either way. If God has a hand in your emotions, which your motivations are based upon, then man is not truly free to think on his/her own emotions, but emotions manipulated upon by God. He must be like a player or something, no?



posted on Dec, 14 2004 @ 11:40 PM
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Originally posted by ben91069

Originally posted by shmick25
Take God out of the picture for a moment. Religion does not exist. If America said to Russia, stop making nukes else we will go to war with you. Does russia have the freedom to make nukes? Of course it does..............

......................Next question. Are people more free if they believe in God than if they dont?



But if God can manipulate your emotions without you knowing it, then we aren't really free to make a decision. You make decisions on how you 'feel' about things. It has nothing to do with religion, which is just mankinds ideas about what faith they believe. Most people do not believe that God is messing with their thought process, but the part in the Bible I referred to claims, he did do so. The reason Russia may still produce nukes in your scenario may be in fact, God controlling their reasoning by their emotions just as he did with Pharoah. To answer your last statement, if what I am suggesting is correct, then people are not free either way. If God has a hand in your emotions, which your motivations are based upon, then man is not truly free to think on his/her own emotions, but emotions manipulated upon by God. He must be like a player or something, no?


Well the best way to answer this (and I did talk about this on another thread) is to think of it this way.

Humans are free with limitations.

Q: Are you free to naturally fly like a bird.
A: No. We were not designed that way.

Q: Are you free to cut out your own eye
Y: Yes but it will hurt like hell. The pain and loss of vision usually prevent us from doing it.

Q: Are you free to say what and where you want?
A: No. Some governments will kill you for doing this.

Q: Are you free to think and believe in whatever you want.
A: Yes. Nothing can stop you from thinking or believing whatever you want. (You may not be free to tell people what you think or believe).

So life is made up of various levels of freedom. Who put those constraints into place. Man, God, Evolution.. whatever you believe.

I believe the level of freedom that matters is in what or whome you believe. It is by no coincidence that this area is where we have ultimate freedom.

Cheers.



posted on Dec, 14 2004 @ 11:45 PM
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Originally posted by shmick25
Well the best way to answer this (and I did talk about this on another thread) is to think of it this way.

Humans are free with limitations.

Q: Are you free to naturally fly like a bird.
A: No. We were not designed that way.

Q: Are you free to cut out your own eye
Y: Yes but it will hurt like hell. The pain and loss of vision usually prevent us from doing it.

Q: Are you free to say what and where you want?
A: No. Some governments will kill you for doing this.

Q: Are you free to think and believe in whatever you want.
A: Yes. Nothing can stop you from thinking or believing whatever you want. (You may not be free to tell people what you think or believe).

So life is made up of various levels of freedom. Who put those constraints into place. Man, God, Evolution.. whatever you believe.

I believe the level of freedom that matters is in what or whome you believe. It is by no coincidence that this area is where we have ultimate freedom.

Cheers.


It seems to me what you are describing is formal freedom versus substantial freedom. For example, we are free to attempt to fly like a bird, but we, in reality, cannot do such things.
Formally we are free to do anything, buy substantially, we are limited by many factors, if you see what I mean.



posted on Dec, 14 2004 @ 11:49 PM
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It still comes back to freedom.

Some people may not be free to fly like a bird. i.e. in a straight jacket because you have been caught running down the street trying to fly like a bird for the last month.

Regarding my last post as well. Mentally sick people and dead people are not free to think properly. So this could limit their total freedom. For the majority of people though that is the only absolute freedom they will experience.



posted on Dec, 15 2004 @ 12:07 AM
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Regarding my last post as well. Mentally sick people and dead people are not free to think properly. So this could limit their total freedom. For the majority of people though that is the only absolute freedom they will experience.



let's use the most liberal definition of freedom: Absence of restriction; by this definition alone, we are all not free. Jean Jacques Rosseau started his treatise, The Social Contract, with these famous words: "Man is born free, and everywhere he is in chains." These words dictate what life entails in a conventional society: we are utterly chained to the economic hardships of life: we are free to purchase whatever materialistic articles we desire, but only if we have the sufficient funds; is this freedom? We are tied down according to civic freedom: adolescents may not participate in the active part of self-determinition come election time, and are privy to such state of affairs that occur in our goverment; is this freedom? Nobody is free, we just have this puesdo belief that we are free to carry out whatever we may to our every whim; this is not true, as is evident.

Now, as for this insinuation that God grants freedom in advocacy of Christianity, I find to be utterly ignorant; it was Paul that gave a slave back to this owner, correct? It was Paul that told this slave to be contempt in his status, correct? This is not freedom. Creating a duality within a duality is not freedom. Christians are mislead into believing that they are truely free when in fact they cannot think outside of the Bible and everything else that faith entails.

Deep



posted on Dec, 15 2004 @ 12:08 AM
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Originally posted by shmick25


Regarding my last post as well. Mentally sick people and dead people are not free to think properly.


What do you mean by "properly"?



posted on Dec, 15 2004 @ 12:15 AM
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Originally posted by shmick25
Your getting confused between free will and predestination.

Take God out of the picture for a moment. Religion does not exist. If America said to Russia, stop making nukes else we will go to war with you. Does russia have the freedom to make nukes? Of course it does.

A general sais ' America will never win a war against Russia', Is america now destined to loose the war and thus has reduced freedom?

Next question. Are people more free if they believe in God than if they dont?


We cannot take God out of the picture since the very concept of freewill is bound to God. Ergo, without a God as our creator, we are but a form free of boundaries. Hence, we should be able to act as to whatever our logic dictates, or more importantly to where our logic takes us. Therefore if free will becomes part of the equation, then it stands to reason that we have been given that ability by someone or something, and that someone or something which we are told is God, has defined for us our future. Our future then is lived worthlessly unless the sole purpose of which is to seek numbers, for that future details numbers, and in order to know those numbers beforehand, the thoughts and therefore freewill patterns of the future generations are known, and we as predestined for hell subsequently have no course correction with which to make.

If a God truly gave us freewill, then it stands to reason that I and you, up until our last breaths have a choice, and that death and therefore thought, will continue up to the moment of judgement. Consequently, the God who gives freewill cannot possibly know that at the time s/he descends on earth to destroy her, that man himself has not wholly committed to him/her. This negates your pre-destination philosophy.

Now God intervened with pharaoh causing him to deny the release of the jews as follows:

Ex 4:21 And the Lord said unto Moses, when thou goest to return to Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand; but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. This is an absolute statement.

Pharaoh was given no free will to determine if he should allow the Israelites to leave, he was forced to deny Moses. Even after Moses and the Israelites left, God disallowed pharaoh the right of refusal to follow:

Ex.14:4 And I wil harden pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; ...

Free will was abjectly denied from someone who God himself supposedly made. God then has made the decision for pharaoh to deny him. How is it possible to undo that which is decreed by God? Pharaoh then will find no penance on the day of judgement for not letting the Israelites go, for if he does, then it has to be that God acknowledges that pharaoh was made to do his bidding, which means that we cannot fault pharaoh for his obstinance, since we have no idea what was really in pharaoh's heart.

There are at least two other such denials of freewill in the Bible, as well.


[edit on 12/15/04 by SomewhereinBetween]



posted on Dec, 15 2004 @ 12:16 AM
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Well, If your dead you cant think at all. So freedom on this planet anyway is nill.

Mentally sick people i.e. Alzheimers impacts upon the brains functions by physically eating it away. Mentally disabled people that have possibly been in a car crash may not be able to think as clearly as we do, simply because their head has been crushed.

But referring to your other post. I understand where you are coming from. Have you ever thought that not being totally free could be a good thing?

If humans didnt have morals and were free to do what they want (and some do it anyway) we would have anachy lots of war etc. What's stopping the destruction of the world by nukes? America by itself could do it. They are free to do it if they really wanted to.



posted on Dec, 15 2004 @ 12:30 AM
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We cannot take God out of the picture since the very concept of freewill is bound to God. Ergo, without a God as our creator, we are but a form free of boundaries. Hence, we should be able to act as to whatever our logic dictates, or more importantly to where our logic takes us. Therefore if free will becomes part of the equation, then it stands to reason that we have been given that ability by someone or something, and that someone or something which we are told is God, has defined for us our future. Our future then is lived worthlessly unless the sole purpose of which is to seek numbers, for that future details numbers, and in order to know those numbers beforehand, the thoughts and therefore freewill patterns of the future generations are known, and we as predestined for hell subsequently have no course correction with which to make.


You're going to snowball this into a creationism vs Evolution thread; assuming that God gave us 'free will' and created us and afforded us the ability to logicaly dictate our lives. Freewill is no accord of God and has been pressumed thousands of years before Gods arrival in Ancient Cannan: We see the primordial laws of determinism sparking life in ancient vedic teachings. Humans have this ability facilitate and employ reason, logic and rational, but only few deploy this unto thier very existence and abide by such countenance.

The freewill manifested through Biblical teachings sounds more or less on the realm of socio-political upheavel, and not so much philosophical; i find it very hard to beleive through the Bible pagan roots, that it contrived any original philosophy and theosophy.

The only thing we are free to do is waver the decision to act upon a cuasally nessicitated state of affairs. We were born with this ability, it is not something which is devine in origin. We are beings with that ability to fully deploy rational, logica and reason.

Deep

PS. I feel so ignored these days.


[edit on 15-12-2004 by ZeroDeep]



posted on Dec, 15 2004 @ 01:02 AM
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Hi SomewhereinBetween

Agreed. God did state that he would harden his heart. It doesnt say how. One can argue it was through the use, as I said, of the 'wonders' that God displayed.

I too know many stories in the Bible where God seems to take freedom of choice from people. Look at the story of Job. Amazing that this guy had his life ripped from him. His house, wives and health was taken away from him. God's protective hand was taken away from him. Job had a choice of blaming god or not. I personally believe that pharaoh would have had a choice at some time of who he would serve.

If you are going to argue it down the religious front, God gives humans an amount of time to make a decision (possibly up to death). After this time, this freedom has been removed from them.

Is it possible that some humans are still alive but have made their ultimate choice to reject God. Therefore, freedom of choice is now defunct.

i.e. I am in a plane with a pilot. he is the only person who knows how to fly the plane. I tell him to piss off because I want the freedom to fly the plane myself. He jumps out and now I have to figure out how the thing works (but with no pilot). I have the freedom to do what I want in the plane but do not have the advise of the pilot so will ultimately crash.

Make sense?



posted on Dec, 15 2004 @ 01:27 AM
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the thing i like about this discussion is the fact that both sides are at a loss for any sort of proof. if we are happenstance creatures and truly free, its too bad that 'time' thing stops us from testing it. and likewise 'time' gets in the way when trying to proove that some intelligent being/deity has made our choices for us. 'time' is the magic that makes our world what it is. IF and when we fully understand (even manipulate?) 'time' it seems the whole human question would be answered.

[edit on 15-12-2004 by lost]



posted on Dec, 15 2004 @ 01:35 AM
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Originally posted by lost
the thing i like about this discussion is the fact that both sides are at a loss for any sort of proof. if we are happenstance creatures and truly free, its too bad that 'time' thing stops us from testing it. and likewise 'time' gets in the way when trying to proove that some intelligent being/deity has made our choices for us. 'time' is the magic that makes our world what it is. IF and when we fully understand (even manipulate?) 'time' it seems the whole human question.


Yes I agree. Still, we can believe we are free still!



posted on Dec, 15 2004 @ 01:46 AM
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Originally posted by ZeroDeep
Freewill is no accord of God and has been pressumed thousands of years before Gods arrival in Ancient Cannan: We see the primordial laws of determinism sparking life in ancient vedic teachings. Humans have this ability facilitate and employ reason, logic and rational, but only few deploy this unto thier very existence and abide by such countenance.

The only thing we are free to do is waver the decision to act upon a cuasally nessicitated state of affairs. We were born with this ability, it is not something which is devine in origin. We are beings with that ability to fully deploy rational, logica and reason.

Deep

PS. I feel so ignored these days.



Maybe you are on global ignore.


Just kidding there, long time since I last saw you.

Getting back to topic, I think we are free and determined. I can think of anything I want to, but I can only think of things I have either already thought about, or close to what I have already thought about without external influence.

Surf



posted on Dec, 15 2004 @ 05:17 AM
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Well, this is what nobody can deny:
All of our actions/reactions ar every predictablem as we grow up we accept a lot of social norms, habits, how to play normal (person).
So speaking about free will is like a game of cards, you can play only card you got. I think that is it. Born on exact location from exact parrents in exact city, that limits awfully free (dom of the) will. I think there are limits and alot of them. But in that case we have only 2 possible cases:
Case one all is predetermined, all happened before (separate from time/space),
Case two we choose every moment what to do, dividing unic=verses multiple universe, paralel universesm metauniverses. More then one whatever.

third story, some fix points other free choices, more to be case, because it reminds mi on let's say Quabalah tree. Structure with points and variable metrics which path you choose to go, you can go quickest way you can go around, but somoe rules exist anyhow.
It is abit confusing, but I am complicated, and can't tell it shorter.



posted on Dec, 15 2004 @ 05:08 PM
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Originally posted by MankoW
So speaking about free will is like a game of cards, you can play only card you got. I think that is it. Born on exact location from exact parrents in exact city, that limits awfully free (dom of the) will. I think there are limits and alot of them.


Well put.


because it reminds mi on let's say Quabalah tree. Structure with points and variable metrics which path you choose to go, you can go quickest way you can go around, but somoe rules exist anyhow.
It is abit confusing, but I am complicated, and can't tell it shorter.


Anyone care to explain? I have no clue what tree he is referring too or what fruits it brings.

Surf







 
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